Having options or not?

[Legacy_simuseb]

               

Honestly? I think having options is good. You have to think about why people install mods in their game. Technically, one could argue that any kind of mod is cheating, but this is honestly not a bad thing. When someone installs a mod, it's because they either feel that there is something wrong with the vanilla game, or that it could be improved in some way. In your case, you made the CPP because for both reasons. You didn't just fix some issues in the game; you didn't just fix obvious bugs; you went the extra mile. It is admirable that you spent so much time on it, and I applaud your efforts, however, by naming it "1.70" you  made it a self-entitled essential mod. Someone sees your mod, and they think it is as necessary to install as 1.69 is- I don't like that. Anyway, that is a little off topic, but it ties into my overall point. You've created a massive mod "fixing" many "issues" and making changes that some players may disagree with. Now, this isn't a bad thing, but by having a lack of options with regards to which aspects of the mod they wish to install, you've limited them. I, for one, will probably never install CPP, but if it had more options I possibly would. 


I'm reiterating: People install mods because there is something about their game they don't like or wish to improve therefore options is generally good because they could very easily come across the same problem in a large mod such as this one. There may be certain things in your mod they don't like and because they don't have any options, they either have to make a sacrifice or just not install it. 

 

 

If you recall the cheating in single player discussion it was fifty fifty - proved by a general poll on bioware site (across all games).

 

the rest of your post is spam, tyvm for your experiences with modding packages

 

Spam? Seriously...? Way to completely dismiss someone else's opinion. 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

I stated I was just using your particular project as an example because with it there would be a common frame of reference for you to understand my opinion. You asked "why do you prefer having options or not having options when you installing game modifications," which usually entails giving examples. You even open with this thread by using your own project as the basis for why you are seeking opinions on the subject.

 

"I would really want to know your reasons and experiences" should probably be rewritten to say "as long as you don't mention the exact project, which happens to be mine, that I am using to start the discussion". Apparently you are willing to accept any and all examples other than ones that mention it and are then, as always, ready to shoo off anyone who does as "not understanding", flaming, spamming, and then direct them to a "proper thread". In other words, you are saying that any opinion contrary to your own about your own is invalid.

 

I am in the proper thread: you asked for what people prefer and why and I responded, on topic, with examples why. If you don't want to hear it, don't ask. If numerous threads of yours seem to devolve into what you see as a flame fest, you should probably take note on what components they all have in common. I am not one of those components.

I asked about your experiences not how should I have made or not made CPP which both you and MM responded. If you have bad experiences with CPP as a particular example Im fine with it. But this is not about the CPP in particular so the discussion how CPP should look like seem off to me (specifically when there is a dedicated thread where you could have expressed your opinions and suggestions on this matter anytime in past to present). Particulary MM posts are personal, he is using the same old story arguments over and over and I discussed it with him already in different thread, he get the response on that topic from me already so repeating the question is spam to me.

 

Im actually glad to hear exact peoples stating their reasons why they havent used CPP. Though, the reasons that were so far spoken are known to me, and I already considered them in my project.

 

 

So actually nobody has an experiences with one-by-one modification from other games?

               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shadooow, 27 mars 2014 - 12:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

I asked about your experiences not how should I have made or not made CPP which both you and MM responded.

 

Kindly point to where I mentioned CPP whatsoever in my post.  I spoke in general principles of the differences in modding something like BG2 versus NWN.

 

So actually nobody has an experiences with one-by-one modification from other games?

 

Not in my case.

 

Lords of Magic: someone created a massive overhaul custom patch which mainly changes gameplay, take it or leave it.  But there's only one main game/campaign.

 

HL/HL2 Mods: You install a mod and play it, you go with the rules implemented by that mod's author, no universal patches.

 

WC3/SC2: You install a mod and play it, you go with the rules implemented by that mod's author, no universal patches.

 

ME/ME2/ME3: You can install cosmetic mods to change appearances but I'm not aware of any mod that actually changes things like health/damage values.

 

The most similar thing I've seen, sort of, is WoW: if you you install UI packages you can choose which parts you want.  After all, if you already have a buff/debuff tracker set up you probably don't want a new one installed, just the stuff that deals with player frames/action bar placement/minimap/etc.  But again that's entirely UI related and cosmetic and only applies to general UI "packages" which are themselves a collection of mods meant to create a UI that people would like.

 

Never seen anything that has GAMEPLAY toggles except for difficulty or number of players.  It's assumed that you load a mod and play by the rules of those mod.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Kindly point to where I mentioned CPP whatsoever in my post.  I spoke in general principles of the differences in modding something like BG2 versus NWN.

Yes but I understood it as if you were talking about CPP because you have started with "if you released a this, instead of CPP you would be applauded". Or did I misunderstood your point?

 

Im adding a few more games I played:

 

Diablo 2: Modifications there are not supported by the Blizzards, but existing. This is where I started 15years ago. There were mostly cheating mods (drop mod particularry dont recall others), and in that time more peoples than today believed you can cheat in single player (we were coming by a web based chat where Diablo2 had its own room and discussing this game and playing LAN). I was promoting the modifications that werent cheats because many peoples especially in czech republic trashed them all based on a few that allowed to cheat. Mods werent optional because there arent mechanics that would allowed it, also almost none of them were working with each other, as most of them completely changed the official campaign. The best modification created for D2 if anyone wants to try is Zy-El, it had even its own server working as battle net for d2, but its gone now, still the single player is refreshing, unique, enjoyable and definitely worth a try.

 

Gothic 3: first time I encountered the community patch idea. I came to G3 quite later as I didnt have a machine for this game for a long time and when I get there I heard about G3 Community Patch, installed and was very satisfied with it (thing is I had no idea what was wrong in original game or even how the original game looked like and no reason to discovering this. What I get was very good gaming experience and I love that (of course except that fact that this game is crap hehe)). Oh - no options when installing of course.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Malagant]

               

No offense, Shadooow, but I guess we'll just have to chalk it up to you getting butthurt any time someone even mentions your project with anything less than worship. Again, you willfully ignore anything said outside of where CPP is mentioned in MM's post, you were dismissive of the entire thing simply because he uttered one line. I'm sorry you feel any example that references you is off topic even if it's relevent, but they are just examples. The only one harping on it and making any subsequent posts focusing on CPP is you.

 

I would love to discuss if I prefer having options or not having options when installing game modifications and why, but apparently the "and why" part is off limits to you.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

No offense, Shadooow, but I guess we'll just have to chalk it up to you getting butthurt any time someone even mentions your project with anything less than worship. Again, you willfully ignore anything said outside of where CPP is mentioned in MM's post, you were dismissive of the entire thing simply because he uttered one line. I'm sorry you feel any example that references you is off topic even if it's relevent, but they are just examples. The only one harping on it and making any subsequent posts focusing on CPP is you.

 

I would love to discuss if I prefer having options or not having options when installing game modifications and why, but apparently the "and why" part is off limits to you.

I still cant see how the line I quoted from you is an explanation of why do you prefer having options. But okay, lets say I misunderstood it and Im sorry, no need to leave the discussion as I do want to hear what you have to say.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Dante2377]

               

I'm not going to get involved in the rest of the this-has-degenerated-into-a-CPP-discussion, but I'll tell you this:

 

I'm my decade of playing BG2 a LOT, MOST people that I considered like me shied away from difficulty mods like Tactics that completely overhauled the game and made you feel like it as a different game that just looked like BG2, and went more for mods like Ascension and smarter AI - mods that simply gave the enemies the same powers and abilities they would have if a human were playing them, not a terrible AI (e.g. demi-liches not spamming imprisonment for 5 straight minutes on PCs that are immune, selecting a spellbook for wizards/clerics that was chosen by someone with an IQ above 60 who had actually played DnD before, having wizards actually debuff PCs properly, etc).  Basically making the hostile NPCs act appropriately and have the same skills and abilities PCs have, not random off the wall powers and terrible/bugged scripts.  

 

It's this same reason that when playing on NWN servers with post 40 rules, I tend for servers like Awakening, which take the same set of rules that I'm used to and simply extend it to 60 with some spell tweaks, rather that something like Av3 or Higher Ground, where at those high levels, it's not really the same NWN game anymore.  Now I've spent time on Av3 and enjoyed it highly, but that was before kids when mentally I could keep an entirely 2nd set of NWN rules and building requirements straight.  Now, I just can't get into PWs that require me to relearn 90% of the spells and completely relearn how PCs are built..but that's just me.  

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Yes but I understood it as if you were talking about CPP because you have started with "if you released a this, instead of CPP you would be applauded". Or did I misunderstood your point?

 

When have I ever suggested I thought CPP should be aimed at the original campaign only and massively overhaul balance and AI to make it more interesting and challenging along with fixing bugs and improving the UI?  My point was that doing something like the Project Q mods someone mentioned earlier (and expanding those to also adjust game balance) is very different from trying to apply Project Q (and massive balance changes) to EVERY module.

 

Only one campaign/scenario like BG2/Lords of Magic/Mechwarrior 4/etc?  Go crazy, do balance changes and game improvements, people know they're changing their game fundamentally but it's also the only campaign/scenario (or very few at least) and they clearly WANT to alter the whole thing.  The rules are universal within a given game.

 

Tons of mods/scenarios like SC2/WC3/NWN?  Don't try to apply general gameplay changes or UI changes, just bug fixes. The rules are NOT universal and rather are specific to each mod.

 

For the BG2/LoM/MW4/etc section, options are BAD because such mods are meant to be sweeping overhauls and implementing only part of them changes the big picture.

 

For the SC2/WC3/NWN options are GOOD because it is the BUILDERS who are effectively using the options, NOT the players like in BG2/LoM/MW4.

 

Or, more succinctly:

 

Players don't need options*.

 

Builders need options.

 

*Unless either there's some conflict with another module also expected to be used or the options are segregated -- doing only the gameplay changes but not altering the graphics is fine, but doing only SOME of the gameplay changes is bad.

 

Now, I just can't get into PWs that require me to relearn 90% of the spells and completely relearn how PCs are built..but that's just me.  

 

Interesting.  I have a hard time getting invested in a PW that DOESN'T do a decent chunk of changes because the default rules are so broken in so many ways.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

The only effects that I really consider to be broken are perm Haste, Harm, Heal, and Dev Crit. The perm Haste effect seems to spoil m/p more, so limiting it's use works for me. The rest I simply avoid using offensively, rather than seek out a patch or mod.

 

As for options, I prefer to have them. And by the popularity of mods seen for Skyrim (the game where I use more mods), so do a considerable number of Players. There may be nothing wrong with complete Overhaul mods; I simply choose not to use them.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Or, more succinctly:

 

Players don't need options*.

 

Builders need options.

This is what I suspect. In the case of Baldurs Gate and Jagged Alliance, i was player there. Having a lot of options how to design/balance/change the game I will play was for me pointless and resulted in bad game experience where I more played with the mods' settings rather the game (which is why I lost interest in both games very soon). So, is there anyone else who played the Baldurs Gate for example and applied various mods? What was your experiences with them?

 

Elhanan, I havent played Skyrim yet. Can you elaborate what modifications are available there, for who (player/builder?) and why people uses them in a first place?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

 

Interesting.  I have a hard time getting invested in a PW that DOESN'T do a decent chunk of changes because the default rules are so broken in so many ways.

I agree with Elhanan, the ultimately broken stuff are very few, the exact list would be a different for me but no point to argue whether is permahaste module breaker or not - it often depends on a module environment/design. Other stuff is just slighly inbalanced but since a roles are established in DnD it can be lived with.

 

And I can see the point of the Dante2377, sometimes lots of changes, especially crazy ones that doesnt follow the usual DnD mechanic are actually causing peoples to go away. A few changes, especially those that makes something that players know its useless (PDK for example) are good but completely changing every spell is not much so. The Higher Ground is an example of changes like this. Try to visit it, if you havent already. The changes there are extremely complex and with their legendary levelling system its get nearly impossible to build a character in advance. Maybe if you spent a month there but not for a new player. (Note Im not saying this PW is bad or something, in the Action category there probably isnt any better than that now. Opinions differ anyway.)

 

Going somewhere middle is probably the best way, establish a changes that aren't changing the spell/class nature or change only generally accepted broken stuff like already mentioned Heal/Harm. We can continue in this discussion in the thread about ideas for balance changes.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan, I havent played Skyrim yet. Can you elaborate what modifications are available there, for who (player/builder?) and why people uses them in a first place?

 

Not extensively familiar, but I know a lot of them (possibly all of them) are graphics mods -- do things like turn dragons into Thomas the Tank Engine.  Or make mostly naked women appear.  Or turn dragons into human wrestlers.  Etc.

 

Other stuff is just slighly inbalanced but since a roles are established in DnD it can be lived with.

 

Talking stuff like Paladin/Blackguard + Sorc, Monk + Druid/Shifter, Skill Dump, PM AC, WM/AA crazy AB, etc.  You also get stuff like a 20+ AB or AC gap on a d20 system.

 

The Higher Ground is an example of changes like this. Try to visit it, if you havent already.

 

I played there for a few months, got tired of groups of people running around like chickens with their heads cut off and nearly everything being determined by whether you had the right spell/item to be immune to some effect.  In general, though, I agree that you don't need to go that extensive on changes -- though I didn't mind per se.

 

We can continue in this discussion in the thread about ideas for balance changes.

 

Sure, post there if you want and I'll respond.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

The Skyrim Nexus has 50+ categories of mods. The ones that that I ref earlier in another thread are Overhauls; those that alter a wide range of items, effects, Skills, etc. Among these mods, as well as some other types, allows the Player to select which sub-modules are chosen for installation.

 

In one of the more popular Overhaul mods, while one has to select the main file which alters Skills, but the Races, Bonus Effects, etc  are optional. While I do not use it myself, it is widely downloaded, and the options seem to be a major reason for this.

 

As for myself, I played 700+ hrs of the Vanilla game with only a single mod to improve facial appearances. Since then, one of the writers at the Nexus named Gopher has made several tutorials, as well as Let's Play vids to generate interest in mods. You can look over his lists at gophersvids.com. Now I have ca. 75 plug-ins that improve weather, water, and lighting, alter spells, add weather effects such as freezing and exposure, etc.

 

And there are filters available for Searches to eliminate unwanted types of mods, so no naked Housecarls for me....

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

I have done such modifications to just about every game I have played that allows modifications,Shadooow.

 

From BG, BG:SoA, BG:ToB, Dragon's Age (and DA2), BG:EE (and BGII:EE), IWD and IWD2, NWN, NWN2, etc.

 

From overrides, to additions, to outright rule changes, you name it.

 

With the Infinity Engine and the Weidu concept, adding changes are really easy.  NWN delivers a number of different ways to change things, as does DA (and DA2).

 

And I do understand the concept of CC Maker vs Player - I made PWs, and then played on them.  It is a strange feeling to "know" just about everything about what one is playing...but sometimes one needs a break from just making, designing, and DMing (as well as enforcing rules on a PW).

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Dante2377]

               

 

Interesting.  I have a hard time getting invested in a PW that DOESN'T do a decent chunk of changes because the default rules are so broken in so many ways.

 

I didn't necessarily mean changes like scaling spell damage so casters progress as well, or editing classes like PDK or Harper scout to make them playable, or changing barbarian rage on a high-magic server to use AB/HP bonuses instead of useless stat bonuses bc you're already at the +12 cap,  but when EVERY aspect of the game that could be customized is (e.g. 90% of the spells customized and not just scaling damage past 15 or 20 damage dice, only custom dieties with limited clerical domains, lots of feats modified, post-40 systems that are difficult to calculate, etc) that takes a lot of mental energy to keep straight, much less invest in the first place.

 

I'll give 2 examples, one from nwn and one from BG2.

 

For NWN, at The Awakening server, the post 40 system (up to 60) is handled fairly straight-forwardly - you get the same every other level progression of AB and saves and a general feat every 3 levels (no more bonus feats).  Some spells are modified, but not a lot that I can't keep track or a quick check helps remind me.  I know that a build that is 5 AB less at level 40 than another build will be 5 AB less (baring odd stat choices later) at lvl 60.  Contrast that with Aventia3's post 40 system.  The post 40 AB and damage scales based a multiplexed modifier from 0.25 to 1.0, based on your level mix at level 40.  All of a sudden, builds that were powerhouses at level 40 like Blood and Faith (str based cleric 26 bard 4 RDD10) are weak at level 250 because clerics have a 0.5 modifier instead of 0.75-1.0 that true melee classes get.  When you get to level 200, that makes a difference.  It's also very hard to figure out how effective your character is going to be at level 100, 200, 400, etc, without getting into complicated formulas.  Now I've played on Av3 and liked it, but now that I have 2 kids and am adopting a 3rd, I need my PWs to have tweaks and slight modifications to NWN, not a complete redo.

 

For BG2, like I mentioned in my other post, a mod like Ascension made the game harder by giving the bad guys 1. spell books that made sense 2. scripts that use them properly, and 3. most NPCs behaved like what they were, not just monsters with random powers.  Contrasted with that the Tactics mod just made insanely powerful enemies, often lumped in groups, that had to be done in a specific order (e.g. get immunity item X to kill monster Y who dropped item A that let you then kill his buddy monster Z) to progress.  OR Improved Anvil, which was a good mod, but it basically introduced new classes and items and turned the plot all around to the point where it didn't really resemble BG2 anymore.