Sorcerer?RDD

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

Empyre65 wrote...

Taking Paladin at level 1 lets you take Weapon Focus right away. It also will make the NPCs identify you as a Paladin. You also have 1 higher BAB at level 1 that way.

RDD is nice to have when you play Sands of Fate for at least 3 reasons that I won't spoil for you.  Also nice to have is a weapon that does acid damage and a ranged weapon that does cold damage.

 After thinking about it I realize that you were right. The class you take at lv1 marks you. Now my only problen is how do I download your build? '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               BTW: I am tempted to put Sorc in at lv7 so that I could have 10 ranks of spellcraft. Every 5 ranks gives you +1 on save throws (if any) :-)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               After looking closer at your build I think I will keep it the same.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               

Westan Willows wrote...
Now my only problen is how do I download your build? '>

Copy-and-paste it from the forums into Notepad (or another text editor), and then from there into the Notes tab of your in-game journal.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

Westan Willows wrote...

BTW: I am tempted to put Sorc in at lv7 so that I could have 10 ranks of spellcraft. Every 5 ranks gives you +1 on save throws (if any) :-)

The save bonus from spellcraft works differently than the AC bonus from tumble. The spellcraft bonus to saves is based on total skill levels in spellcraft, not just ranks. So, if you have 9 ranks in spellcraft and an intelligence of 12, then you will have +2 to saves versus spells. This applies to anything that adds to the spellcraft skill, including items, spell effects, bard song, etc. (up to the cap) as well as feats that add to the skill. So, a level 22 sorcerer with 25 ranks in spellcraft, INT 14, Greater Gloves of Spellcraft (+6), and a Ring of Magic Defences (+2) will have 35 total levels in spellcraft and a save bonus of +7.

So, the 9 ranks in spellcraft that the listed toon can get with a level of sorcerer at level 6 will result in 10 total skill levels with no gear. Good enough for a +2 bonus.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 04 février 2014 - 04:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               Also, Spellcraft is a class skill for RDD.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               You might want to use the PRC implimentation of the RDD (and associated feats) instead of "vanilla" NWN here.

The RDD that Bioware made is...not a very good translation of the PnP version, tbh.

The PRC changes that (amongst other things) so that the RDD does actually compare to the PnP version. See http://nwvault.ign.c....detail&id=4560 for details.

for one, the RDD (which really is a misdeneamor - it should just be [insert color here] Dragon Disciple) should add to caster level progression (which the Bioware standard translation does not) due to the inclusion of the

Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) feat

This really changes how the Prestige Class can be implemented into the Sorcerer Class progression!

NOW you can take 4 levels of DD before Epic levels, without harming your Caster level progression by taking this feat.  It basically allows you to take 4 levels of DD and still retain Sorcerer spellcasting progression (at the cost of a feat slot, of course).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 04 février 2014 - 08:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Keep in mind PRC adds a whole bunch of brokenly overpowered stuff.  Maybe people find it interesting but it's not even remotely close to balanced (not that standard NWN is but PRC makes it much worse).  PRC also doesn't play well with some modules from what I recall.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Keep in mind PRC adds a whole bunch of brokenly overpowered stuff.  Maybe people find it interesting but it's not even remotely close to balanced (not that standard NWN is but PRC makes it much worse).  PRC also doesn't play well with some modules from what I recall.

It adds what is added to the PnP counterpart.  What IS broken is the rather limited AI system that Bioware includes with the game, and the exclusion of a lot of feats, skills, etc that would have went a looooong way to balancing the game much better (ala Dev Crit, for example, and others).

Of course, one doesn't HAVE to use parts of it, if one considers it overpowered, cheesey, whatever.  That is the good part of the PRC - there are a lot of switches for turning X on (or off, or implementing different rule interpretations of such).

As for "play well" - well, it is a Hak, of course!  Thus, most Mods with Haks will have conflicts, one way or another.  A lot of work was done by Players (me included) to make many of the more popular mods "compatible" with the PRC.  I don't know if that information is still available, however, as the PRC forum seems to be...offline, sadly.

Strange is, most "accept" the CEP - which is a hak.  So why is the PRC such a big deal here?

It ADDS to the game.  In my book, that is never bad.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

Of course, one doesn't HAVE to use parts of it, if one considers it overpowered, cheesey, whatever.  That is the good part of the PRC - there are a lot of switches for turning X on (or off, or implementing different rule interpretations of such).

Sure.  But someone who didn't know bettter might not understand that some things are very overpowered and thus think a module is way too easy or something.  I'm talking single player stuff, not multiplayer.  In the hands of a PW admin it's a very different story since, like you said, they can enable/disable different things and all of the new stuff is EXPECTED and thus can be balanced around.

WebShaman wrote...

Strange is, most "accept" the CEP - which is a hak.  So why is the PRC such a big deal here?

CEP is used for tilesets/item looks/models.  Adding CEP to a single player game doesn't change anything that I can think of off-hand though maybe there are some minor differences cosmestically or something.

WebShaman wrote...

It ADDS to the game.  In my book, that is never bad.

If the PRC added a new "Shaman" class which had the following features...

d10 HP due to being a barbarian's kin but slightly less tough
Full BAB progression
Light Armor proficiency
Level 9 arcane spontaneous spellcasting that ignores spell failure from light armor and shields

Would you still say it's never bad?

You're basically getting a lightly armored sorcerer who can ignore spell failure with twice the BAB and about twice the HP.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               I must agree with MagicalMaster.

1) I don't know how to turn on/off
2) I just want to play the mod not have to turn this on or that off.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

If the PRC added a new "Shaman" class which had the following features...

d10 HP due to being a barbarian's kin but slightly less tough
Full BAB progression
Light Armor proficiency
Level 9 arcane spontaneous spellcasting that ignores spell failure from light armor and shields

Would you still say it's never bad?

You're basically getting a lightly armored sorcerer who can ignore spell failure with twice the BAB and about twice the HP.

I am not aware of such a Class or PrC being in the PRC, first of all.  There is a version of the Shaman that can do spontaneous casting, much like the Sorcerer, except with Divine spells, but it doesn't have 1/1 BAB or D10 HP.

Even if that were the case, however.  Yeah, I would welcome the extra content.  Doesn't mean I have to use it, does it?  But someone, somewhere, did the work to create this.  That adds to the game.

I repeat : that adds to the game.

And yeah, I find that a good thing.

Back to Westan here - you don't have to turn anything on or off - the PRC comes pre-switched.  You CAN turn things on or off, if you wish.  It is giving you options, for your enjoyment, instead of railroading you into doing something in a preconceived way, by someone else.

I (and the PRC team from Olde) understand that you just wish to play.  That is why the PRC comes with an injector.  You press button, point it at the mod, and it installs itself.  If there are haks, it even has a neat little organizer built-in that tries to make everything "work nice".  It is not perfect, but it is better than any other hak system currently available for NWN that I am aware of.

Not even CEP or Q uses this type of thing for their content that I am aware of.

In any event, all I wanted to do was to inform you that you have a CHOICE of extra content here, because you asked about Sorcerer?RDD options.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I am not aware of such a Class or PrC being in the PRC, first of all.  There is a version of the Shaman that can do spontaneous casting, much like the Sorcerer, except with Divine spells, but it doesn't have 1/1 BAB or D10 HP.

It doesn't exist, I made it up out of thin air.  I took a sorcerer and gave it some armor/shield proficiency which it could use while casting, upped its HP, and doubled its BAB (I technically didn't mention it having a familiar but assume it does).

WebShaman wrote...

Even if that were the case, however.  Yeah, I would welcome the extra content.  Doesn't mean I have to use it, does it?  But someone, somewhere, did the work to create this.  That adds to the game.

That's the thing, though, I disagree that it adds to the game.  In fact, I think it subtracts from the game.  At a minimum it renders the sorcerer class obselete and pointless.  It also introduces power creep that makes other classes much weaker relatively speaking.

And it is eliminating part of the whole POINT of arcane spellcasting -- that your physical attacks are much worse, you can't wear armor without special training and considerable effort, and you have the lowest hit die of all classes.

Or, in other words, RPGs are about interesting choices and introducing something obviously superior reduces those interesting choices.  If the PRC added a martial medium slashing weapon which had 1d12 damage and 19-20/x3 you've just removed a lot of weapons from play as there's no reason to pick them over the new weapon.  Even though it's something someone somewhere did work to create.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Well, the best part of NWN is that your opinion is moot, whereas mine still applies.

You may rant all you want about what you thinks "subtracts" from the game, but as long as NWN is an open platform where one can add content to it, that doesn't change things, does it?

Your opinion of things is rather subjective.  You see things from your perspective only, it would seem.  I am sure there are Players who would enjoy playing such a character as you describe, that can go toe-to-toe with sword and cast magic.

Oh, of course!  That already exists.

The Eldritch Knight.

It was even officially introduced into NWN2 as a PrC.

And guess what?

It doesn't render the Sorcerer Class obsolete and pointless.  But I get the feeling I am speaking to deaf ears.

In any event, I am really glad that you are powerless to enforce your view of things on others in the game.  Even with your Mod - I open it, change it to my liking, however I wish to do so.  Not that I have played it yet...but if I do, it will be with the PRC installed, of course (along with a host of other goodies, like the OHS).

Oh, and again I see things like "if the PRC added" - it doesn't.  You really are picking at straws here.

But let us see...I can basically take any weapon in the game, and make it magical, blah blah blah.  As long as these benefits outweight the benefits from other weapons, soon PGers will have builds centered around this weapon.  It is a fact of RPG life.

Variety is the spice of life.  You seem to like blandness.

I like spice.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

You may rant all you want about what you thinks "subtracts" from the game, but as long as NWN is an open platform where one can add content to it, that doesn't change things, does it?

Ranting, Web?

My original response in this thread was quite simply:

"Keep in mind PRC adds a whole bunch of brokenly overpowered stuff.  Maybe people find it interesting but it's not even remotely close to balanced (not that standard NWN is but PRC makes it much worse).  PRC also doesn't play well with some modules from what I recall."

You're the one who responded to those three sentences with a dozen -- you could have simply said something like:

"Yes, the PRC has some powerful stuff but I still find it fun and suggest fiddling around with it and seeing if you like it."

And that would have been it.  You're the one who felt the need to turn this into a full blown discussion about the PRC.

WebShaman wrote...

Your opinion of things is rather subjective.  You see things from your perspective only, it would seem.  I am sure there are Players who would enjoy playing such a character as you describe, that can go toe-to-toe with sword and cast magic.

I see things from a DESIGNER perspective, Web, while you see it from a PLAYER perspective.  I'm sure many players would like to take the strengths of two classes and combine them while at least mostly discarding the weaknesses of both classes.  Oddly enough, EVERYONE tends to think their favorite class is too weak and needs buffs while the other classes are too strong.

WebShaman wrote...

In any event, I am really glad that you are powerless to enforce your view of things on others in the game.  Even with your Mod - I open it, change it to my liking, however I wish to do so.  Not that I have played it yet...but if I do, it will be with the PRC installed, of course (along with a host of other goodies, like the OHS).

I typically don't use this phrase but I feel a need to do so here: LOL.  Have fun with the OHS, I suspect it'll end rather badly (given the fact that the module is designed to be done with zero henchmen and the nature of the fights in the module).  Should be interesting to hear about, I suppose.

And of course you're free to use the PRC if you want...just as you're free to use DebugMode to increase every stat of your character by 10.  Probably about the same effect of some of the classes in there.  Use the PRC if you wish but just remember it was NOT designed or tuned around the PRC.

WebShaman wrote...

Oh, and again I see things like "if the PRC added" - it doesn't.  You really are picking at straws here.

Well, you've already happily informed us in the other thread that the PRC adds a base class with better archery abilities than an Arcane Archer.  Shockingly enough, should you use that class in Siege of the Heavens you'll find it massively easier than intended -- and it's already relatively easier than intended given how  powerful Arcane Archer is by default.

WebShaman wrote...

But let us see...I can basically take any weapon in the game, and make it magical, blah blah blah.  As long as these benefits outweight the benefits from other weapons, soon PGers will have builds centered around this weapon.  It is a fact of RPG life.

Sure, and at the same time people will object and say that you should be free to choose either a longsword or battleaxe based on personal desire instead of the fact that the best weapons in a mod are longswords.  That's an indication of poor design.

In a well designed module with magical enhancement equality the weapon I mentioned, if added, would always be used.

WebShaman wrote...

Variety is the spice of life.  You seem to like blandness.

I like spice.

Quite the reverse, Webshaman.

Let me ask you a question: if you had a choice between doing 5% more damage per hit, 5% chance to do double damage, or attack 5% more often which would you want?  You'd be able to choose what you think is most interesting.

Now what if I offered you a choice between 30% more damage, 5% more damage, 5% chance to do double damage, or attack 5% more often?  You'd be stupid NOT to always pick the 30% bonus because it's clearly better.  We've removed three choices.

Or here's another simple question: which of the following has more variety?

Game 1: 10 roughly equally balanced classes which are all viable

Game 2: 50 classes with 3 of them clearly being much better than the other 47

I'm guessing you'd say game 2, despite the fact it only has three REAL choices and game 1 has ten.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 09 février 2014 - 08:36 .