Arcane Archer Feat Advice

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               I am playing an Arcane Archer in the Aielund modules, which take me from 1st level to the high 30s.  I went with a Ranger / Wizard / Arcane Archer combination to have respectable scouting skills.

That leaves me short on feats, and I am trying to decide between several.  I will only be able to choose between three of the following four feats: Blind Fight, Mobility, Rapid Fire, Weapon Finesse.

My inclination is to leave out Weapon Finesse.

Blind Fight (plus maximum Listen skill) will help me with hidden opponents and magical darkness (which Ultravision does not penetrate).

Rapid Fire maximizes damage output, and with high Dexterity and enchanted arrows, the -2 attack penalty should be negligible, meaning I can use it all the time.

Mobility will help with the attacks of opportunity that opponents will get if they get into melee range while I am using the bow.  All melee opponents will be getting an attack of opportunity per round, and Mobility at least gives a +4 bonus when they do.  High Dexterity means I should have good AC (though I won't have shield help obviously).

Going that route assumes I will never put down the bow and draw a melee weapon.  That means I am depending a lot on Mobility for situations where I am ambushed (e.g. spiders dropping from the ceiling, I hate that) or in close quarters (many dungeon situations).  Opponents with a high attack could shred me in those situations.

If I worked in Weapon Finesse, I could switch to a melee weapon in those situations where dangerous opponents engaged me in melee.  I would be somewhat effective in that case, but nowhere near the kind of damage I could deliver with a bow.  (I don't need Weapon Finesse to use a melee weapon, of course, but without Weapon Finesse, I'd rarely hit, and could do nothing but stand there in a defensive posture until a henchman could help.)

To work in Weapon Finesse, I'd need to leave something out.

Blind Fight feels indispensible, but it is not something I'd be using all the time- maybe there is another way to deal with hidden opponents or magical darkness in those situations?

Maybe I am over-estimating the usefulness of Mobility, and should leave it out.  I would only be taking it to help with the attacks of opportunity for firing a ranged weapon in melee.  I took 1 (and only 1 ever) rank in Tumble, figuring that with high Dexterity bonuses, that would eventually take care of combat movement.

At one point I was thinking I might leave out Rapid Fire since I would not use it all the time with the -2 penalty- but I have changed my mind on that, with all the bonuses I will have, a -2 penalty is nothing.

Right now I am 7th level- Ranger 6 / Wizard 1- with Weapon Focus: Longbow, Point Blank Shot, and Dodge.  I'll take my first Arcane Archer level on next level-up at 8th level.  I am planning to take Improved Critical: Longbow as my 9th level feat, so I do not have to decide what to do about the other feats until 12th level.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Enchanted arrows don't increase your AB, only enchanted bows (unless you mean the AA feat specifically which does).

Your general reasoning is correct, Weapon Finesse is pointless.  A character with, say, 13 AA levels would lose 11 AB by switching to a melee weapon (7 from AA levels, 1 from Point Blank Shot, 1 from Weapon Focus, 2 from Epic Weapon Focus) along with 8 damage -- definitely not worth it to avoid AoOs which Mobility helps with anyway.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               An AA will have trouble at one specific point in the Aielund Saga where you lose all your stuff and have to scrounge around to find gear before a battle. I tried it once, and couldn't get past that point, although things were going well until then. Weapon Finesse just might be a life saver at that point.

When concealed enemies get within melee range of you, and they will, Blind Fight will help you no matter what weapon you are using.

Here's an AA build I made for the Aielund Saga that should be able to get past that point based on strength alone, but i haven't played it yet.

Draconic Archer 4 (Bard 7 / Red Dragon Disciple 10 / Arcane Archer 23)
Elf, Non-Lawful
Playable 1 - 40, PvM
Optimized for Aielund Saga

Abilities:
STR: 16 (26)
DEX: 17 (30)
CON: 8 (10)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 12 (14)

Leveling Guide:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Bard(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
05: Bard(5)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Blind Fight
07: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=18)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(3): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Power Attack, (STR=20)
10: Arcane Archer(1)
11: Arcane Archer(2)
12: Arcane Archer(3): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Longbow, (DEX=20)
13: Arcane Archer(4)
14: Arcane Archer(5)
15: Red Dragon Disciple(5): Cleave
16: Red Dragon Disciple(6): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
17: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=10)
18: Red Dragon Disciple(: Great Cleave
19: Arcane Archer(6)
20: Arcane Archer(7): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Epic Prowess, (INT=16)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=24), (CHA=14)
23: Arcane Archer(
24: Arcane Archer(9): STR+1, Overwhelming Critical: Longbow, (STR=25)
25: Arcane Archer(10)
26: Arcane Archer(11)
27: Bard(6): Devastating Critical: Longbow
28: Arcane Archer(12): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
29: Arcane Archer(13)
30: Arcane Archer(14): Great Dexterity I, Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, (DEX=24)
31: Arcane Archer(15)
32: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
33: Arcane Archer(17): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=26)
34: Arcane Archer(18): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=27)
35: Arcane Archer(19)
36: Arcane Archer(20): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=29)
37: Bard(7)
38: Arcane Archer(21)
39: Arcane Archer(22): Armor Skin, Great Dexterity V, (DEX=30)
40: Arcane Archer(23): STR+1, (STR=26)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 310
Skillpoints: 257
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/21/31
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 35 (melee), 52 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 34/37
Spell Casting: Bard(3)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 40(48), Heal 43(42), Listen 43(44), Lore 21(31), Perform 10(12), Spellcraft 37(40), Tumble 40(50), UMD 23(25)

01: Discipline(4), Listen(4), Lore(4), Perform(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4)
02: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
03: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
04: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
05: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
06: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2)
07: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2)
08: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1)
09: Discipline(1), Heal(2), Listen(1)
10: Heal(5), Listen(1)
11: Listen(1), Save(5)
12: Listen(1), Save(10)
13: Listen(1), Save(15)
14: Listen(1), Save(20)
15: Discipline(6), Listen(1), Spellcraft(13), Save(4)
16: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(5)
17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(6)
18: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(7)
19: Listen(1), Save(12)
20: Listen(1), Save(17)
21: Discipline(3), Listen(1), Spellcraft(3), Save(14)
22: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(16)
23: Listen(1), Save(22)
24: Listen(1), Save(28)
25: Listen(1), Save(34)
26: Listen(1), Save(40)
27: Discipline(5), Listen(1), Perform(2), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(22), UMD(15)
28: Heal(6), Listen(1)
29: Heal(6), Listen(1)
30: Heal(6), Listen(1)
31: Heal(6), Listen(1)
32: Heal(3), Listen(1), Save(3)
33: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(
34: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(13)
35: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(18)
36: Listen(1), Save(24)
37: Discipline(10), Listen(1), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(10)
38: Heal(3), Listen(1), Lore(3)
39: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(5)
40: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(5)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Empyre65 wrote...

An AA will have trouble at one specific point in the Aielund Saga where you lose all your stuff and have to scrounge around to find gear before a battle. I tried it once, and couldn't get past that point, although things were going well until then. Weapon Finesse just might be a life saver at that point.

Rely on the powers of your companions and you'll be perfectly fine -- hell, just "tank" and don't worry about really killing stuff, let them do it.  Trying not to spoil anything here.

Empyre65 wrote...

Here's an AA build I made for the Aielund Saga that should be able to get past that point based on strength alone, but i haven't played it yet.

There's no Dev Crit in Aielund so that's rather pointless, sorry.  Savant removed it in the revamp because it's simply too broken -- especially since its DC gets higher than something like Wail of the Banshee with Epic Spell Focus.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               If you are good at Kiting and non-Pause combat, dropping Weapon Finesse appears to be a good choice. However, as I am not great at such tactics, I prefer to switch to melee , esp in the early lvls before gaining all the benefits and perks, so I drop Mobility if using a DEX build. I choose to raise the AC against all attacks rather than only against the AoO.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               He'll have companions in Aielund to avoid getting in melee early on when he's more vulnerable.

Nor does switching to a melee weapon inherently raise AC at all, only if you use a shield -- which is perhaps what you meant.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

He'll have companions in Aielund to avoid getting in melee early on when he's more vulnerable.

Nor does switching to a melee weapon inherently raise AC at all, only if you use a shield -- which is perhaps what you meant.

Yes, and/ or wearing heavier armor for a STR build. I do not use Dev Crit anyway, and occasionally like the extra punch from higher Mighty additions placed on some bows, though cannot recall if these were included in that series.

But if the OP is going with Ranger/ Wiz/ AA, perhaps taking Mobility and Spring Attack might be preferred with Tumble being limited.

FWIW - Aielund is one of the series where Followers are advisable; for the dialogue for no other reason. This is one factor in why this is held as a favored series among many Players.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Yes, and/ or wearing heavier armor for a STR build. I do not use Dev Crit anyway, and occasionally like the extra punch from higher Mighty additions placed on some bows, though cannot recall if these were included in that series.

There are plenty of Mighty weapons.

Elhanan wrote...

But if the OP is going with Ranger/ Wiz/ AA, perhaps taking Mobility and Spring Attack might be preferred with Tumble being limited.

 At level 7 he'll have 5 Tumble ranks and likely 5 Dex modifier for 10 -- meaning you'd only fail a Tumble check 20% of the time.  At level 11 he'll have 7 Tumble and probably 7 Dex modifier, meaning he'll never fail.

Elhanan wrote...

FWIW - Aielund is one of the series where Followers are advisable; for the dialogue for no other reason. This is one factor in why this is held as a favored series among many Players.

Most definitely.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               I didn't know about the removal of Dev Crit because I have been playing an older version. Here's a tweaked build without Dev Crit, and with AB, AC, and saves all boosted by +2:

Draconic Archer 5 (Bard 7 / Red Dragon Disciple 10 / Arcane Archer 23)
Elf, Non-Lawful
Playable 1 - 40, PvM
Optimized for the Aielund Saga.

Abilities:
STR: 14 (22)
DEX: 17 (34)
CON: 12 (14)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 12 (14)

Leveling Guide:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Bard(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
05: Bard(5)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Blind Fight
07: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=16)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(3): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Dodge, (STR=18)
10: Arcane Archer(1)
11: Arcane Archer(2)
12: Arcane Archer(3): DEX+1, Rapid Shot, (DEX=20)
13: Arcane Archer(4)
14: Arcane Archer(5)
15: Red Dragon Disciple(5): Improved Critical: Longbow
16: Red Dragon Disciple(6): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
17: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=14)
18: Red Dragon Disciple(: Iron Will
19: Arcane Archer(6)
20: Arcane Archer(7): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Epic Prowess, (INT=16)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=22), (CHA=14)
23: Arcane Archer(
24: Arcane Archer(9): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I, (DEX=24)
25: Arcane Archer(10)
26: Arcane Archer(11)
27: Bard(6): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=25)
28: Arcane Archer(12): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
29: Arcane Archer(13)
30: Arcane Archer(14): Great Dexterity III, Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, (DEX=27)
31: Arcane Archer(15)
32: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
33: Arcane Archer(17): Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=29)
34: Arcane Archer(18): Great Dexterity V, (DEX=30)
35: Arcane Archer(19)
36: Arcane Archer(20): DEX+1, Great Dexterity VI, (DEX=32)
37: Bard(7)
38: Arcane Archer(21)
39: Arcane Archer(22): Armor Skin, Great Dexterity VII, (DEX=33)
40: Arcane Archer(23): DEX+1, (DEX=34)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 390
Skillpoints: 257
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/23/33
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 33 (melee), 54 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 36/39
Spell Casting: Bard(3)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 40(46), Heal 43(42), Listen 43(44), Lore 21(31), Perform 10(12), Spellcraft 37(40), Tumble 40(52), UMD 23(25)

01: Discipline(4), Listen(4), Lore(4), Perform(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4)
02: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
03: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
04: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
05: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
06: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2)
07: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2)
08: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1)
09: Discipline(1), Heal(2), Listen(1)
10: Heal(5), Listen(1)
11: Listen(1), Save(5)
12: Listen(1), Save(10)
13: Listen(1), Save(15)
14: Listen(1), Save(20)
15: Discipline(6), Listen(1), Spellcraft(13), Save(4)
16: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(5)
17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(6)
18: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(7)
19: Listen(1), Save(12)
20: Listen(1), Save(17)
21: Discipline(3), Listen(1), Spellcraft(3), Save(14)
22: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(16)
23: Listen(1), Save(22)
24: Listen(1), Save(28)
25: Listen(1), Save(34)
26: Listen(1), Save(40)
27: Discipline(5), Listen(1), Perform(2), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(22), UMD(15)
28: Heal(6), Listen(1)
29: Heal(6), Listen(1)
30: Heal(6), Listen(1)
31: Heal(6), Listen(1)
32: Heal(3), Listen(1), Save(3)
33: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(
34: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(13)
35: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(18)
36: Listen(1), Save(24)
37: Discipline(10), Listen(1), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(10)
38: Heal(3), Listen(1), Lore(3)
39: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(5)
40: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(5)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               There is a point early in the second module that put me in a one-on-one, close-quarter melee situation (no henchmen, opponent immediately on me, no space).

The first time I tried to Entangle before he closed on me, with the idea that I would Entangle and shoot him to death.  He closed on me before I got the spell off and shredded me.

Second time through, I looked through my inventory and found a Greater Stoneskin scroll and a fully loaded Wand of Magic Missiles.  Greater Stoneskin lasted long enough for me to unload half of the wand on him and kill him.

So from that experience, I decided when I was in situations where I couldn't use the bow, I would keep some scrolls and wands around as a backup plan instead of melee weapons.  That leaves me comfortable in nixing Weapon Finesse from the list and going with Mobility at 12.

And right after I hit 12th level and took Mobility, I got into a tough battle in Darkness where I was screwed (got through the battle, but my role was limited to using Healing kits on my henchmen as fast I could).  Blind Fight is definitely the next feat to pick up.

As to overall build, I certainly could have done something more powerful had I not chosen to start as a Ranger.  I wanted to be able to scout though, and henchmen are lousy scouts.  Stealth also helps somewhat with the problem that my tanks follow behind me- as long as opponents don't see me first, I'm not the first target.  (It is a pain though to have to manually toggle stealth for individual henchmen so they can run past me and be seen first.)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Mystery X, 01 février 2014 - 07:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Rogue AAs can make great scouts, with that great skillset and a decent allotment of skillpoints. It costs two AB, but that's not really an issue for AAs and they get better AC from tumble. And, Evasion is a class feat, which is fantastic for a high-reflex-save build like this. And, they get Uncanny Dodge, which may be useful for those ambush situations you mention.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               If you have Point Blank Shot, you CAN use a bow in melee.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

                Rogue/Wizard/AA is a good choice for a scouting character. Like the OP, I prefer to play a Ranger. A good combination I've had luck with is Ranger/Bard/AA. The Bard levels give access to tumble and UMD which are very useful skills. May not be the most mechanically powerful combination, but it's always a fun combination. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               The extra AB from Ranger vs. Rogue does make a difference.  With Rapid Shot, all five shots have great odds of hitting.  (I still don't have a perma-Haste item; that will bring it to six shots).  That gets even better for the Ranger when adding the Cat's Grace spell.

The Favored Enemy also makes a noticeable difference.  Right now, +2 vs. Humans and Outsiders.  I have been having a lot of battles vs. Humans.  Fewer vs. Outsiders so far, but I expect more at higher levels.  The bonuses are noticeable.  I am tempted to take my 10th Ranger level earlier than planned to get that bonus to +3.

The extra hit points from Ranger levels too have really added to survivability when opponents have closed on me.

Rogue would come with Sneak Attack though, which isn't too hard to trigger in ranged combat.  Overall, that is probably a better damage add than Favored Enemy.

Though Rogue has fewer hit points, there is the AC bonus from Tumble.  At the lower levels, it's probably better to have the hit points.  At higher levels, the AC bonus from Tumble may be better.  And then also the Rogue gets Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.

Use Magic Device is also a great skill for a character with high DEX- it allows use of Monk-only robes and cloaks which tend to be superior defensive items.  (I have noticed that the Aielund module puts alignment restrictions on all Monk items, requiring higher UMD to use them compared to the official campaigns.)

The +2 AB from going with Ranger probably seems small at later levels, but at earlier levels, it's a big deal (it's a +1 AB advantage right away at first level, +2 advantage at 5th level).

Some of the Ranger class abilities are useless to me.  I have no use for the free two-weapon fighting.  Animal Companion arrives right as I switch to taking Arcane Archer levels, so at best only has a couple of levels of usefulness early.  I had high hopes for the Ranger spells, but I haven't been able to effectively use Entangle.  Cat's Grace is nice at mid-level before obtaining items for +12 DEX.

I had considered Rogue instead of Ranger, but went with Ranger for two reasons.  One is that the quicker AB progression at the lowest levels makes the lowest levels easier to deal with (and I was playing starting at 1st).  The other is that I've played Rogues a few times, and wanted to try something different.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               Blind Fight has not been helping me deal with magical Darkness.  I cannot target anyone in Darkness unless I am in melee range.

I thought I would be able to get a Listen check to detect enemies in Darkness.  Am I wrong on that?  Even enemies with Move Silently should be out of Stealth mode in combat (though I suppose if they are standing around doing nothing in Darkness, they can be using Stealth).  I have maximum Listen, and as an Elf, should be getting full benefit from it without being in Detect Mode.