ShaDoOoW wrote...
That doesnt even matter, you dont understand, what I mean is that your change would have reversed impact on gameplay, few spells would did more damage and in global scale it would increased the damage output. Which, if I did, you maybe wouldnt be blaming there now but someone else did instead of you because it doesnt suit him in his view of nwn.
Or you could have, I don't know, NOT CHANGED ANYTHING?
Which is what I've REPEATEDLY stated?
ShaDoOoW wrote...
So, you dont like ten of the thousand changes/fixes in patch? Thats definitely a reason why don't use it, LOL. I love that.
Let's view this another way. Imagine your patch fixed 10,000 issues and also removed the cleric class from the game. That ONE change would be FAR FAR FAR more than enough reason to not use the patch. And changing Empower Spell is changing one of the two more IMPORTANT feats for a caster. It's a big deal.
In other words, it's not the number changes I don't like, it's WHAT was changed.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
Why some spells are 1d6+1-20 and some 1d6-10d6? Again, I dont know I havent designed the spells, but the metamagic rules are designed well. Its not a case for all spells but those you are pointing to be less powerfull, making no sense are very often non existand in DnD or having different effects in DnD. But metamagic has additional role, doesnt it? It allows to cast a lesser spell on higher spell slot which is a must for any pure caster.
No, they AREN'T designed well. For example, a level 10 wizard will do 15d6 damage with an Empowered Fireball but he'll do 10d6 with Firebrand. That's not good design.
An Empowered Magic Missile will deal (2.5 + 1)*1.5 = 5.25 damage while a Maximized Magic Missile will only deal 5 damage. That's not good design.
An Empowered Firebrand will do 22.5d6 damage while a Delayed Blast Fireball will only do 20d6. That's not good design (and if the caster is level 15 the Firebrand will STILL do 22.5d6 while the DBF does 15d6 -- that's not good design either).
The whole system is riddled with flaws and stupidity and making the problem WORSE is not the answer. Leave it alone and let individual people fix it and if you can't handle that then, again, don't make things WORSE. Don't add additional stupidity. Remove stupidity by fixing Maximize Spell.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
But you know better and instead of change those things in your module you rather wont use it at all. I believe its actually not about the changes but about who is proposing them.
Bioware can dictate changes by fiat. You can't. Not only that, but what nerf did Bioware do in 1.69 that didn't make sense? Perhaps I'm not thinking of something but you've have to give an example of how Bioware made things WORSE with their nerf (and I'm talking about the general situation because by definition a nerf is making SOMETHING worse).
If you were the admin of a specific PW that I played on and changed Empower I'd argue against it but ultimately I'd either accept it or leave because it's something specific to that PW. You're trying to push a change like this on EVERYONE and, worse, PROMOTING it as some sort of community approved standard.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
The fact that some spells particulary spell mantle, when empowered overcome the higher version of the spell is a bug.
No, it is NOT. Empowered Fireball > Firebrand for up to 5 levels. Empowered Firebrand > DBF for ALL levels. Maximized Lightning Bolt/Scintillating Sphere > Chain Lightning as long as you hit two targets.
The fact that an Empowered Spell Mantle > Greater Spell Mantle is a FEATURE -- a bonus for HAVING Empower Spell.
If you want to say this feature is a bad idea, that's a valid opinion and you can argue for that -- but it's a fundamental balance change to alter that and NOT something that should go in a "patch." And it's CERTAINLY not something you "fix" for only SOME spells -- even after your change a level 10 wizard will do 50% more damage with an Empowered Fireball as opposed to a standard Firebrand.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
If one half of the nwn is using feets for a distance and the other half which was added in HotU expansion is using the meters, is unification of all instances where this is used to meters wrong?
Except this is, y'know, FACTUALLY WRONG.
Combust, for example, does 2d6 + caster level and THEN multiplies everything by 1.5. It was added in HotU.
Perhaps you could point to all of these HotU added spells which act in this new fashion? I'm looking through the spells added in HotU specifically (which weren't included in SoU) and offhand Combust is the only one that MIGHT be affected -- and it uses the "OLD" formula like the original did.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
No spell in DnD would have 1d8+8 bonus which breaks the balance between empower/maximize. So if I actually fixed the empower calculation the main problem would be back again and it would have to be needed to solve this on an individual spell basic which would be treated badly again and caused disgust of even more peoples
Oh really? Cure Light Wounds is 1d8 + 5. Moderate 2d8 + 10. Serious 3d8 + 15. Critical 4d8 + 20.
Or how about the Cure Light Wounds, Mass? That's 1d8 + 25! TWENTY-FIVE!
You're wrong about how the HotU added spells like Combust work. You're wrong about how DnD wouldn't have spells that are similar.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
- It is not normal that spell altered by empower metamagic does more than the higher version of that spell. (Spell mantle/Greater spell mantle - check the nwn wiki) - which is what CP also fixed.
It is absolutely normal as I demonstrated above. And what makes this REALLY hilarious is that you just pointed out how BIOWARE is the one who made Spell Mantle. It is actually MORE common for an empowered spell to be better than a higher level version than not because MOST spells do something like level * d6.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
Nobody ever plays 3.0 anymore its almost broken. But 3.5 is soo nerfed down and balanced to low magic that there is almost nobody in NWN community who would even thought of it.
I'll give you a hint: 3.0 is broken because of stuff like Harm dealing ALL of your HP except 1d4 or Heal doing ALL of your HP. It's not because Empower Spell always gives +50% bonus for two spell levels higher.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
Ive
read it and doesnt see how this changes anything. Youve said "IF it should be done, then it should be this way", Im saying that "if it was that way it would be clear and big balance change while what I did in CP isn't in my opinion".
No, I said "NOTHING SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE." I even repeated that TWICE. In two different paragraphs.
And what kind of insane "logic" is this? Nerfing the damage of an Empowered Finger of Death by 27% making Empower Spell only give it a 10% bonus instead of 50% ISN'T a balance change but making Maximized Finger of Death do 56% more damage IS a balance change?
ShaDoOoW wrote...
Your argument about CP changing a balance in your module is weird. That is also true for Tony K AI or perhaps PRC which player can install into your mod. Its a player choice if anything, for you as a builder it is unresponsible that you are intentionally ignoring this patch and doesnt upgrade&fix what you dislike if it bothers you SO MUCH.
People install Tony K AI KNOWING it will change their game balance. People install PRC KNOWING it will change their game balance. That is the whole REASON to install these things.
But people install something called a "Community Patch" because they think it will fix bugs, not change game balance.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
But really, you are soo angry because of changes that you wouldn't even notice if they weren't described. You said huge game mechanic change while the actual difference is spottable merely only in three spells FoD, Healing sting and Spell Mantle. Difference in other spells is so small that it is is insignificant (except ability buffs where the new minimum of 2 points might matter but thats also wanted effect by majority of the builders imo). Messing battletide and hellball? How that can screw your mod? I doesnt understand that.
Ignoring cantrips...
Sorcerer/Wizard
Combust
Negative Energy Burst
Evard's
Lesser Spell Mantle
Finger of Death
Spell Mantle
Cleric
HEALING DOMAIN POWER
Cure Light Wounds
Inflict Light Wounds
Cure Moderate Wounds
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Cure Serious Wounds
Inflict Serious Sounds
Cure Critical Wounds
Inflict Critical Wounds
Healing Circle
Circle of Doom
Druid
All Cure/Inflict Wound Spells as mentioned (8 total)
Healing Sting
Healing Circle
And I am specifically thinking of situations where you need to damage something with Negative Energy as a Sorcerer/Wizard and thus you use (Empowered) Negative Energy Burst and Finger of Death. Along with lower level clerics/druids, especially clerics with Healing domain.
"Difference in other spells is so small that it is is insignificant (except ability buffs where the new minimum of 2 points might matter but thats also wanted effect by majority of the builders imo)"
If it is insignificant and making Empowered Finger of Death do 50% more damage along with Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball ALSO doing 50% is consistent, WHY CHANGE IT?
And what in the world are you basing your "minimum of 2 points is wanted by majority of builders" on? If anything I usually see the ability buffs changed to ALWAYS give 4 points.
And no, those specifically won't have much effect in Siege. The Firestorm fix will make a big difference and caster clerics/druids will be underpowered but that is technically a bug fix that clearly was a mistake in the code (you can tell by looking at the code itself). But...what else is possibly changed? I don't know. Once you start changing things in the name of balance rather than clear bugs who knows what could get messed up? I'd have to try to pore through every change to every ability and see if you changed some AI routines just to make sure nothing you did messed my module up!
If I didn't see those blatant balance changes I'd be less worried -- but you started down a path, I don't know where it leads, and I don't want players to suffer for it.
WhiZard wrote...
So a module should be balanced in the case that players teleport to any area (PRC)? No, the burden lies on the other side. Modules are not responsible for listing each and every way an override (much less a core resource change) can affect them. The best way to play a module with the balance it was designed for is to play it vanilla 1.69 with the addition of any haks the module offers.
This. Absolutely this. This so, so, so much.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
You missed my point. PRC is a mod and a player is teched what might happen if he uses in a module. CP is however a patch and peoples are using it that way. It was intented to become a standard and given how many downloads it has its safe to assume that its broadly used by players. If you as a builder intentionally ignore this patch because you dont like its author or you dont like few changes in it, why do you blame this project yet for a fact it changes game mechanics in your single player module?{smilie}
For the same reason I intentionally ignore Tony K's AI. UNLESS I specifically design the module to use it -- in which case I'd say "You're expected to use Tony K's AI in this module."
And I don't think ANYONE dislikes you, ShaDoOoW. None of us despise you personally or something. We don't like how you've changed what APPEARS to be a standard bug-fix patch into something also affects balance and we REALLY don't like how you're then PROMOTING that as a "community" ideal -- but we just think you're very misguided and making poor choices, not that you're a malicious bastard or something.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
Im quite sure this wont be an answer for those who want to believe that empower affect also a "per level" bonus to damage, but after reading tons of discussions on this subject Im absolutely sure it shouldnt affect it. Its just not logical, if it worked this way then a sixth level wizard would deal 60damage by maximized fireball
The reason it doesn't affect the number of missiles is because then it would double dip. 50% more damage per missile AND 50% more missiles = 125% more damage for Empowering, which is clearly wrong.
Or to rephrase it: Fireball written as 3.5 damage per level with a 50% bonus for Empowered and 71% bonus for Maximized would have the EXACT same average damage as using d6 per level -- it would simply eliminate the randomness. In such a case, though, it SHOULD still get the 50% bonus from Empowered.
On the flip side, if Sleep affected 5 HD rather than 2d4 HD then allowing it to be Empowered to affect 7.5 HD would be perfectly fine.
Modifié par MagicalMaster, 01 février 2014 - 01:25 .
