A few questions for the experienced NWN players :)

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Bogdanov89 wrote...

I am having trouble finding a Heavy Crossbow with a Mighty - does it even exist? I can't find it on any website!

In a vanilla game there probably isnt. You do intend to play a OC? Still crossbows often have a haste itemproperty which is great.

This is again environment dependant, in OC this will be probably similar power-related because there is low variety of weapons and you might not even found one of the bow with mighty (unless its in shop im not sure now). Specializing for one particular weapons is a choice rather in multiplayers (where you perhaps already found that weapon with another character, or its widely known crafted weapon).

 You are right there isn't crossbows with Mighty in the OC. In HotU you can get Mighty added to a crossbow but it will cost you.'>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

Bogdanov89 wrote...

Is it possible to Empower or Maximize (or use any other metamagic) on buffs like Bull's Strength and Prayer and Divine Power?

 Extend Spell feat.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

Bogdanov89 wrote...

Is it possible to Empower or Maximize (or use any other metamagic) on buffs like Bull's Strength and Prayer and Divine Power?

Most spells which have an effect whose magnitude is random (like Bull's Strength) can be cast maximized or empowered. Spells without that random aspect (like Prayer and Divine Power) generally cannot be maximized or empowered. Most spells with a duration other than instantaneous (including most buffs) can be extended. See the wiki entries for the metamagic feats for more details or the entries for the specific spells.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               And then there is 'find traps' which can be extended and empowered. I don't know why
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Yes,

spells.2da

has many entries in the metamagic column which aren't well suited to the spells themselves. A spell designated for metamagic in the 2DA file (which is, basically, what determines whether a spell can be cast from the appropriate metamagic spell slot) may not have any support for metamagic in the spell script (which is what determines whether a spell slotted as extended, empowered, or maximized will actually have those effects applied). That will be considered a bug by most, but it is sort of a handy thing for casters who use metamagic to manage spell slots. For example, a sorcerer who has used up all of his level 3 slots casting Greater Magic Weapon on his party before the big fight might still have a level 4 or 5 slot available to cast Find Traps when it comes time to grab the loot.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 26 janvier 2014 - 12:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               Thanks MrZork My sorcerer always takes extend spell etc. Comes in handy.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

]I just cant agree with this. The fourt attack whatever low ab it might have is just a must, even a monks with the two extra attacks sucks with 3base.

Let's look at the results for 40, 30, 25, and 20 AB against a mob with 36 AC just to see what we get.  We're assuming a cleric with 15 BAB and 40/30/25/20 AB versus a cleric with 16 BAB and 41/31/26/21 AB.

40 AB, 15 BAB: 40/35/30/40/35 = 95/95/75/95/95 = 4.55 HPR.
41 AB, 16 BAB: 41/36/31/26/41 = 95/95/80/55/95 = 4.2 HPR.

15 BAB cleric wins by 8.3%.

30 AB, 15 BAB: 30/25/20/30/25  = 75/50/25/75/50 = 2.75 HPR.
31 AB, 16 BAB: 31/26/21/16/31 = 80/55/30/5/80 = 2.5 HPR.

15 BAB cleric wins by 10%.

25 AB, 15 BAB: 25/20/15/25/20 = 50/25/5/50/25 = 1.55 HPR
26 AB, 16 BAB: 26/21/16/11/26 = 55/30/5/5/55 = 1.5 HPR

15 BAB cleric wins by 3.3%

20 AB, 15 BAB: 20/15/10/20/15 = 25/5/5/25/5 = 0.65 HPR
21 AB, 16 BAB: 21/16/11/6/21 = 30/5/5/5/30 = 0.75 HPR

16 BAB cleric wins by 15%.

In other words, the ONLY situation where the 16 BAB is better is when the AB is incredibly low compared to AC (to the point where only the first attack has more than a 5% chance of hitting and the extra attack doesn't even help, it's the extra AB that makes a difference).

ShaDoOoW wrote...

The usual AC on this server is 55-60 btw. (So the lowest ab for character is around 60)...Maybe the practice is different in a lower magic worlds but I doubt it. Of course in singleplayer where the game ends around lvl 19-22 attaining the fourth attack on lvl 20 has not much sense, but wherever game continues it has.

The magic level of the world or campaign is irrelevant to this issue.  At level 1, for example, your AB is definitely less than enemy AC.  Why would this change at higher level except in edge cases like AAs and WMs?  If anything this is MORE likely to occur on higher magic worlds.

A world with +5 items can get +5 magical AB and +25 magical AC -- that's a 20 point gap which is filled in by BAB increases as you level.  A world with +10 items can get +10 magical AB and +50 magical AB -- now that's a 40 point gap!  Much harder to close with BAB and other things -- it's much easier to increase AC than AB in NWN.

Bogdanov89 wrote...

Is it possible to Empower or Maximize (or use any other metamagic) on buffs like Bull's Strength and Prayer and Divine Power?

As others have said, yes.  Can always Extend buffs.  Can Empower/Maximize anything with a die roll, sometimes can even do it for spells without a die roll even though it technically shouldn't work on them.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 26 janvier 2014 - 07:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Bogdanov89]

               Thank you for replying.

Reading through your discussion i must say i am amazed at the knowledge you people have about NWN and DnD!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

15 BAB cleric wins by 8.3%.
15 BAB cleric wins by 10%.
15 BAB cleric wins by 3.3%
16 BAB cleric wins by 15%.

Again. I didnt said your calculations are wrong. Im saying that while it work on paper it doesnt have to work ingame too. Considering that this trick is not (ab)used even in highmagic world im not sure it would be useably in lowmagic where are often many limitations like resting only at certain places. In our epic high magic world, resting is not limited but players are trying to rest only when absolutely must because it takes time (resting at 40 is almost 30seconds i think) and then they have to rebuff themselves. Resting more than once per dungeon is disadvantageous there. Thats why we are making new and new builds to make the best character on a specific dungeon as the less time you need to complete the better as you can go another dungeon in that time with different character that is logged in front of. The possibility of the fourth attack without need of cast divine power helps as you can spare the buffs on easier trash mobs in certain corridors in dungeon or you dont have to recast it in fight that is almost over (fact is that you dont even recognize you've lost the divine power since it grants only few points of ab in the high magic - +8/+9 weapons in our world - and no damage nor attack) On our epic world there is also a high density of mobs with beholder dispel and there are lots of fully dispelling traps which again grants and advantage to the clerics with 4base aprs. Comfort is the factor you have to add in too.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Considering that this trick is not (ab)used even in highmagic world im not sure it would be useably in lowmagic where are often many limitations like resting only at certain places.

All right, so let's assume a lower magic world where all combat buffs aren't up all the time due to resting or something.  As a result let's say AB is 40 compared to AC of 51 (50% hit chance on best attack due to not having every buff up).  15 BAB gets 40/35/30 (no haste either) which is 50/25/5 = 0.8 HPR.  16 BAB gets 41/36/31/26 = 55/30/5/5 = 95.  Our worse case situation still only gives the 16 BAB person an 18.75% advantage -- but the 1 AB makes up 12.5% of that 18.75% advantage.  The extra attack is only about 5%.

If we assume a higher AB relative to AC, that gives the following going with 45 AB...

45/40/35 = 75/50/25 = 1.5 HPR
46/41/36/31 = 80/55/30/5 = 1.7 HPR

Now we're down to a 13.3% advantage.  If we assume Haste then that goes down to an 11.1% advantage -- and again, this is assuming no Divine Power active.  And the extra 1 AB gives 8.9% of that 11.1% advantage -- the extra attack only adds about 2%.

And the worlds with low magic and limited resting are never tuned that tightly anyway, which makes this whole thing even less important.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

On our epic world there is also a high density of mobs with beholder dispel and there are lots of fully dispelling traps which again grants and advantage to the clerics with 4base aprs.

What you're saying boils down to saying "Clerics with 15 BAB have about a 10% advantage WITH Divine Power up while clerics with 16 BAB have about a 10% advantage WITHOUT Divine Power up."  Of course, I'd also point out that beholder dispel also removes Aid/Bless/Prayer/Battletide/Divine Favor which means a melee cleric is going to lose a lot of AB -- even if they have a +9 weapon, they lose 11 AB when hit with beholder anti magic or those traps.

And if clerics can lose 11 AB and still be fine, then us effectively quibbling over 1-2 points of AB is meaningless because those 1-2 AB don't really matter anyway.

What is your PW anyway?  If it's in English (for some reason I'm thinking you mentioned it wasn't at some point) I'm half-tempted to make a cleric there to demonstrate my point.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               low-magic: You didnt understood, you are assuming that a players fights with divine power all the time, they dont not in high magic, not at all in low magic. In low magic, what you often see is that they use only the longterm buffs like aid, bless and they does the easier part of their routine without power, favor, battletide sparing all these buffs for a challenging area or boss. Its very simplyfied but should match generic lowmagic world quite well.

You do not persuade me, I know the numbers but despite them I consider 4base aprs (when possible to attain them) more beneficial than the extra attack from divine power.

But I would really like to see what you gonna find out on Arkhalia. Its not my server (I wass DM/WB for three years there but didnt created it - not even in that position right now) and its not in english but there is only like 50 NPCs with some conversation, most with basic store, some are selling town portals basically 1-1-1 does the trick. But I know its not very friendly for a english speakers. But given you are powergamer you could love it there. Most players should be able to speak english and the whole server is about knowhow anyway.

But problem is how do you prove your point. Clerics with 15bab are playable, the RDD cleric is one of the best builds ever, PM cleric was at one point also very popular but after few years most players replaced him with zen cleric with 16bab as soon they gathered enough equip to attain high AC like PM had. Sometimes you can even see a 16cleric 23wizard 1monk which is build I created as a replacement for a PM cleric with twohand weapon as a low budget char. Also15bab. Well.. anyway, if you like to try and perhaps teach players on Arkhalia that 15bab is better for cleric send me PM and I can explain you how to play there and perhaps even give some items.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

low-magic: You didnt understood, you are assuming that a players fights with divine power all the time, they dont not in high magic, not at all in low magic.

No, I didn't assume that -- all of the math in my previous post is assuming NO Divine Power.  The one before THAT had Divine Power but the latest one did not.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

In low magic, what you often see is that they use only the longterm buffs like aid, bless and they does the easier part of their routine without power, favor, battletide sparing all these buffs for a challenging area or boss. Its very simplyfied but should match generic lowmagic world quite well.

At level 20 an Extended Divine Power lasts 4 minutes and it is quite easy to have at least 4-5 of them.  Which means even if you can only rest every 40 minutes you still have 50%ish uptime of Divine Power precisely when it matters most.  Ditto for Battletide.  And sub-20 you're not going to have 16 BAB anyway.

Not to mention to get 16 BAB you have to give up a full 4 levels of cleric.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

You do not persuade me, I know the numbers but despite them I consider 4base aprs (when possible to attain them) more beneficial than the extra attack from divine power.

If you're playing on a world where enemy AC is insanely low or insanely high and clerics get dispelled constantly that might be true.  That's not a typical environment, though.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

But I would really like to see what you gonna find out on Arkhalia. Its not my server (I wass DM/WB for three years there but didnt created it - not even in that position right now) and its not in english but there is only like 50 NPCs with some conversation, most with basic store, some are selling town portals basically 1-1-1 does the trick. But I know its not very friendly for a english speakers. But given you are powergamer you could love it there. Most players should be able to speak english and the whole server is about knowhow anyway.

What's the IP?  Any special downloads?  I tried to find the website for the server which I thought was http://www.arkhalia.cz/ but that site won't load.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

But problem is how do you prove your point. Clerics with 15bab are playable, the RDD cleric is one of the best builds ever, PM cleric was at one point also very popular but after few years most players replaced him with zen cleric with 16bab as soon they gathered enough equip to attain high AC like PM had.

Hey now, your earlier claim was

"And except a cleric builds which gets the fourth attack via divine power, never ever was a character with just three base attack well rated. Few builds like that was build (PM/AA, monk/RDD) but trashed because they didnt stand a chance against anything else. And the main reason was the missing attack."

So all I need to do is create a character with 15 BAB or less that does well in melee, no?  Including possibly a cleric that doesn't use Divine Power.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 26 janvier 2014 - 10:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Bogdanov89]

               I got a few questions about Ability and ability modifiers in patch 1.71 RC3:

Is there any difference in melee weapon attack bonus and damage bonus if i have 15 Strength instead of 14 Strength (still the same STR ability modifier on character panel)?

Does any Ability, like STR/DEX/CON/INT/CHAR/WIS, actually provide a benefit by itself - or does ONLY the modifier matter?
In other words, i am trying to find out does it matter at all if i have (example) 15 STR instead of 14 STR - since both 14 and 15 STR have the same modifiers?

As far as specific spells that rely on Charisma Modifier go, are you penalized if you have a negative Charisma Modifier?
Example:
Divine strength - The effect lasts for 5 rounds + the cleric's charisma modifier.
Battle Mastery - The effect will last for 5 rounds + charisma modifier.
If i have -2 Charisma modifier, will those spells actually last shorter?

About Constitution - it seems that the more Constitution i invest, i get less increase in health per point of Constitution. Is it true that Constitution loses it's value the more points you put into it?
Also, do i get health from EVERY point in Constitution - or only from CON's ability modifier?

Thank you for reading and helping.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Bogdanov89, 27 janvier 2014 - 08:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

No, I didn't assume that -- all of the math in my previous post is assuming NO Divine Power.  The one before THAT had Divine Power but the latest one did not.

I see noticed just now, okay correct. But you wrote "And the worlds with low magic and limited resting are never tuned that
tightly anyway, which makes this whole thing even less important." This is absolutely true and one more point for 16bab since in this environment you hit without it (in this environment a melee mage is usually playable so cleric wont have any problem to hit monsters without the short term buffs.

At level 20 an Extended Divine Power lasts 4 minutes and it is quite easy to have at least 4-5 of them.  Which means even if you can only rest every 40 minutes you still have 50%ish uptime of Divine Power precisely when it matters most.  Ditto for Battletide.  And sub-20 you're not going to have 16 BAB anyway.

Not to mention to get 16 BAB you have to give up a full 4 levels of cleric.

agree but I said that already - if its SP/OC which ends soon after 20 there is no sense to multiclass in order to get 16BAB, being that 30lvl PW however that sense would surely be there.

What's the IP?  Any special downloads?  I tried to find the website for the server which I thought was http://www.arkhalia.cz/ but that site won't load.

you are correct but it was down yesterday, it works now - try to use google translator on this page http://arkhalia.cz/howto.html

ShaDoOoW wrote...

But problem is how do you prove your point. Clerics with 15bab are playable, the RDD cleric is one of the best builds ever, PM cleric was at one point also very popular but after few years most players replaced him with zen cleric with 16bab as soon they gathered enough equip to attain high AC like PM had.

Hey now, your earlier claim was

"And except a cleric builds which gets the fourth attack via divine power, never ever was a character with just three base attack well rated. Few builds like that was build (PM/AA, monk/RDD) but trashed because they didnt stand a chance against anything else. And the main reason was the missing attack."

So all I need to do is create a character with 15 BAB or less that does well in melee, no?  Including possibly a cleric that doesn't use Divine Power.

Yes that would work. I thought you would start with RDD Cleric which wouldnt prove the point since that was brought up into discussion later and some of the cleric builds cannot be made with 16bab anyway. So the second argument was about those cleric builds that can be made with 16bab only. But provinf the initial argument that characters with 3base aprs arent worse than those with 4 (given same ab) will be perfect for proving your or my point.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 27 janvier 2014 - 10:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

Bogdanov89 wrote...

I got a few questions about Ability and ability modifiers in patch 1.71 RC3:

Is there any difference in melee weapon attack bonus and damage bonus if i have 15 Strength instead of 14 Strength (still the same STR ability modifier on character panel)?

Does any Ability, like STR/DEX/CON/INT/CHAR/WIS, actually provide a benefit by itself - or does ONLY the modifier matter?
In other words, i am trying to find out does it matter at all if i have (example) 15 STR instead of 14 STR - since both 14 and 15 STR have the same modifiers?

As far as specific spells that rely on Charisma Modifier go, are you penalized if you have a negative Charisma Modifier?
Example:
Divine strength - The effect lasts for 5 rounds + the cleric's charisma modifier.
Battle Mastery - The effect will last for 5 rounds + charisma modifier.
If i have -2 Charisma modifier, will those spells actually last shorter?

About Constitution - it seems that the more Constitution i invest, i get less increase in health per point of Constitution. Is it true that Constitution loses it's value the more points you put into it?
Also, do i get health from EVERY point in Constitution - or only from CON's ability modifier?

Thank you for reading and helping.

15 STR As far as BAB and Melee no. you will get the same results a15 STR will alow you to carry more weighrt.

-2 CHA 5 rounds + -2= 3rounds. (at lease it did when I went to school)'>

I am not shure about CON.