Help with Fighter

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Aelis Eine wrote...

What's Spring Attack doing there? Just cross class Tumble because it's that good. The whole Dodge line can be dropped pretty safely - mobility is only really useful to mages that don't use Defensive Casting or Improved Combat Casting, so you run out of useful feats by 12. And if you pre-plan Cleave and GC on 15 and 18, you actually run out by level 10.

Since we're debating this subject, I've gotta put another 2 cents in on Spring Attack.

If we're still playing SoU, the highest the PC is going to get is about level 14, isn't it? If the fighter puts cross class points in tumble he'll have 7 base ranks, and one more from a DEX score of 13. That's 8 ranks in  Tumble at a cost of 14 skill points. With his full plate and tower shield he'll have a net Tumble score of -8. Not gonna fend off many Attacks of Opportunity with a negative 8 Tumble. Spring Attack renders the fighter immune to AoO's while moving around in combat. The only reason to take Dodge and Mobility is because they are prerequisites for Spring Attack. Spring Attack is very useful for a pure fighter in full plate and carrying a tower shield, especially when he's never going to reach epic levels.

I play mostly on a server where the level cap is 20. I wouldn't make a fighter there without planning on taking Spring Attack, because it's that useful.   ;^)

*edit for spelling

 Yes he cross class in Tumble. at lv 13 he would have 8 base ranks. (13+3)/2=8.
add 1 for dex and he will have 9 Tumble.
Right now he is lv 11. Tumble is at 3 because he has Chainmail +2 (armor check pemalty -5) Mirror Sheild (penalty -2) Bracers of DEX +4.
7+3-7=3. Tumble.

I will keep Spring Attack it works great.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Aelis Eine wrote...

What's Spring Attack doing there? Just cross class Tumble because it's that good. The whole Dodge line can be dropped pretty safely - mobility is only really useful to mages that don't use Defensive Casting or Improved Combat Casting, so you run out of useful feats by 12. And if you pre-plan Cleave and GC on 15 and 18, you actually run out by level 10.

Since we're debating this subject, I've gotta put another 2 cents in on Spring Attack.

If we're still playing SoU, the highest the PC is going to get is about level 14, isn't it? If the fighter puts cross class points in tumble he'll have 7 base ranks, and one more from a DEX score of 13. That's 8 ranks in  Tumble at a cost of 14 skill points. With his full plate and tower shield he'll have a net Tumble score of -8. Not gonna fend off many Attacks of Opportunity with a negative 8 Tumble. Spring Attack renders the fighter immune to AoO's while moving around in combat. The only reason to take Dodge and Mobility is because they are prerequisites for Spring Attack. Spring Attack is very useful for a pure fighter in full plate and carrying a tower shield, especially when he's never going to reach epic levels.

I play mostly on a server where the level cap is 20. I wouldn't make a fighter there without planning on taking Spring Attack, because it's that useful.   ;^)

Even without epic levels I still don't know about that really. If I really need to make that Tumble check there's ways to do it, like have the shield on hotkey and a Boots of Tumble swap, or simply wait for something to approach, or actually multiclassing with 1 level of Rogue at 12 for a huge dump.

The main use for negating movement AoO that I see is either to be able to flank something, in which case you can get away with lower ACs, or to retain the Dodge bonus to AC, which should be low without Tumble and at lower character levels. Otherwise there's a few tricks you can do with movement AoO, like provoking AoOs from a mage or healer to disable their spellcasting for 6 seconds, or forcing an Invis/stealthed enemy to break stealth.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Aelis Eine, 22 décembre 2013 - 08:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Aelis Eine wrote...

What's Spring Attack doing there? Just cross class Tumble because it's that good. The whole Dodge line can be dropped pretty safely - mobility is only really useful to mages that don't use Defensive Casting or Improved Combat Casting, so you run out of useful feats by 12. And if you pre-plan Cleave and GC on 15 and 18, you actually run out by level 10.

Since we're debating this subject, I've gotta put another 2 cents in on Spring Attack.

If we're still playing SoU, the highest the PC is going to get is about level 14, isn't it? If the fighter puts cross class points in tumble he'll have 7 base ranks, and one more from a DEX score of 13. That's 8 ranks in  Tumble at a cost of 14 skill points. With his full plate and tower shield he'll have a net Tumble score of -8. Not gonna fend off many Attacks of Opportunity with a negative 8 Tumble. Spring Attack renders the fighter immune to AoO's while moving around in combat. The only reason to take Dodge and Mobility is because they are prerequisites for Spring Attack. Spring Attack is very useful for a pure fighter in full plate and carrying a tower shield, especially when he's never going to reach epic levels.

I play mostly on a server where the level cap is 20. I wouldn't make a fighter there without planning on taking Spring Attack, because it's that useful.   ;^)

*edit for spelling

while i cant say its not true i never used it really, one (and if you take more than you have bad tactics) AoO isnt that problematic since rarely would one hit make a difference, also AoO can be avoided by walking instead of running, and then i mostly use ranged weapon to start combat and let enemy come to me instead of opposite and it is me who take AoO

but it is true that i mostly play epic characters who just need a 40points in tumble and they dont have to worry about AoO from moving at all...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

while i cant say its not true i never used it really, one (and if you take more than you have bad tactics) AoO isnt that problematic since rarely would one hit make a difference, also AoO can be avoided by walking instead of running, and then i mostly use ranged weapon to start combat and let enemy come to me instead of opposite and it is me who take AoO

but it is true that i mostly play epic characters who just need a 40points in tumble and they dont have to worry about AoO from moving at all...

I knew I remember using Stealth Mode on my full plate characters way back! '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

while i cant say its not true i never used it really, one (and if you take more than you have bad tactics) AoO isnt that problematic since rarely would one hit make a difference, also AoO can be avoided by walking instead of running, and then i mostly use ranged weapon to start combat and let enemy come to me instead of opposite and it is me who take AoO

That's fine if you're fighting only one equal or lessor opponent. But that doesn't happen very often. More often than not, you're fighting mobs when you're the tank. If you're fighting a mob, and you're having your arse handed to you, and you decide it's time to make a run for it, being immune to AoO's can mean the difference between getting away or dieing.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I just lost my entire post so I'm going to be relatively brief for now.  Really don't feel like typing it all out again.  I'll expand on specific points in the next reply if desired.

Aelis Eine wrote...

I've played with Called Shot before, it's not bad when it works, but the -4 AB and Discipline check really limits its usefulness, to the point where if something can be Call Shotted, you probably don't need to Call Shot it anyway.

Use it on low Discipline enemies immune to Knockdown.  Stacking -2 AB for Arm or -1 AC for Leg is huge.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Well mathematically, that's 10% chance to take 50% less damage, so that works out to 5% mitigation on a subset of spells? I suppose that's not bad, although the killers usually aren't the 20d6s but the IGMSes.

Technically ranges from 5.1% reduction to 9.1% reduction depending on the relative save and DC.  Not retyping math atm.

Aelis Eine wrote...

You may have a point on Horrids, although usually by the time I reach enemies that use Horrids, they're either KDable or I have access to Shadow Shield

I don't think it's reasonable to assume a fighter is going to have access to Shadow Shield.

Aelis Eine wrote...

What's Spring Attack doing there? Just cross class Tumble because it's that good. The whole Dodge line can be dropped pretty safely - mobility is only really useful to mages that don't use Defensive Casting or Improved Combat Casting, so you run out of useful feats by 12. And if you pre-plan Cleave and GC on 15 and 18, you actually run out by level 10.

18 Armor Check Penalty for Spring Attack.  Adds more mobility without risking extra hits.  Dodge is a free AC.  Mobility gives AC when drinking a potion.  Cleave/GC you want to pick up early when they're most powerful.

Aelis Eine wrote...

That HP boost would be useful if the game had attacks that require a certain threshold, but it doesn't. High enough to survive 3 maxed GMSes is usually enough.

Physical attacks, other spells.  Never seen a place where enemies just spam IGMS (and/or IGMS is neutered via change or magic resist).

Aelis Eine wrote...

I honestly don't remember which district it was, but I do remember reading a FAQ that said the Prison District was the easiest, so it's probably that. It was a house with only him inside if I remember correctly.

No such thing exists in the prison district.

Aelis Eine wrote...

What if I do the same as a Cleric without ever using a single spell?

Please don't tell me you're equating a cleric not casting a spell with a fighter not spamming short term store bought buff potions.  That's not a class feature.  Being a fighter is about learning the combat modes, using combat feats, gearing them, and understanding tactics.  Yes, a melee cleric usually has to know the above along with how to cast spells.  Clerics are more complicated.

Aelis Eine wrote...

The only thing that does is tip the scales even further towards of Clerics being the best fighters.

Only solo and even then a WM still trumps a cleric, AA probably does as well.

Aelis Eine wrote...

This might make more sense, although it's still kind of silly to require that everyone uses those spells, and then balance the game around that.

Might be a gold sink or a hoop for people to jump through to feel accomplished.

Aelis Eine wrote...

There's still Zen Archery and Monk multiclass, so the Cleric maintains a very healthy AC lead for tanking even if going with Wisdom, while maintaining a competitive AB.

Monk AC is broken.  We going to bring in 38 sorc/1 monk/1 paladin next for reasonable comparisons?

Aelis Eine wrote...

Can a Fighter replace a DD at level 15 in that role? I think not. His squishiness will show when fighting in areas much higher than its level, and most hits will connect on a 2 or more.

Yes.  Especially if the DD is taking larger hits like 20+ per hit.  At which point the DD needs to take 80%+ of his HP every 3 seconds for the fighter to not be able to survive.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Typically, those environments are usually designed by people who don't know the engine very well '> That means a Cleric is still useful for Regen stacking.

Regen stacking?  10 Regens stacked is still only 10 HP per second (60 per round).  What's the point of that exactly?

Aelis Eine wrote...

First thing, other than UEE there's many other useless spells in NWN, so I don't know why you chose to buff an ability on a class that least needed a buff to a "useless" spell. I don't think you did anything to say, Power Word Kill or Elemental Swarm for example.

UEE, SoV, PWK, MS, and many other level 8 and 9 spells were buffed.  I didn't touch summon creature blah spells so Ele Swarm wasn't considered either -- druids already got shapeshifting buffs and animal companion buffs.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Second, Flame Weapon is supplanted by Darkfire - if I remember right, they don't stack in your mod. Stat buffs aren't unique to mages, Imp Invis isn't unique to mages as you note. So my claim was that Clerics stole the support crown, and you just admitted it '>

Mage
Stats
Weapon Buff
Imp Invis
Debuffs/Dispels
Best spell DPS
No melee presence

Cleric
Stats
Weapon Buff
Imp Invis (ONLY if Trickery)
Extra Healing
5 AB/11 damage (assuming no paladin/ranger)
Best melee presence
Moderate spell DPS

Bard
Stats
Weapon Buff
Imp Invis
8 AB/7 AC/4 damage
Decent melee presence
Bad spell DPS

Each brought their own benefits.  Bards would buff fighters/rogues the most, more than Clerics actually.  But they were weaker in combat and didn't really have any spell DPS.  And clerics were deliberately make substantially weaker in spell DPS than a mage (doubly so if they didn't pump wisdom and get spell foci).

Aelis Eine wrote...

So bringing that back to the issue at hand. On FM, in a party lacking a support character, i.e. assume There's a DD to tank and DPS is very well covered with either a bunch of WMs and AAs or Rogues or Necromancy or Evocation-specced mages. Who would you turn to for the support role? A) Str-based Monk/Cleric loaded with a ton of buffs Bard/RDD/Blackguard C) Sorcerer loaded with support spells. And the scales have been overwhelmingly tipped in favour of the Cleric.

Bard if heavy with rogues and fighters. Sorcerer otherwise for more nuking.  Cleric is basically always the second best choice.

Lots of meleers?  Bard > Cleric > Mage

Lots of spellcasters?  Mage > Cleric > Bard

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

 The only reason to take Dodge and Mobility is because they are prerequisites for Spring Attack. Spring Attack is very useful for a pure fighter in full plate and carrying a tower shield, especially when he's never going to reach epic levels.

Dodge is better than you think unless you're always swarmed by identical enemies with no particular threat.  Roughly 10-15% less damage taken from your target.  Mobility is nice for using potions.  Are either absolutely critical?  No, but there's reason to take them if you can.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Otherwise there's a few tricks you can do with movement AoO, like provoking AoOs from a mage or healer to disable their spellcasting for 6 seconds, or forcing an Invis/stealthed enemy to break stealth.

While true, that's not relevant for 99% of people.  And it's also, frankly, stupid.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

while i cant say its not true i never used it really, one (and if you take more than you have bad tactics) AoO isnt that problematic since rarely would one hit make a difference

Think running through a crowd of enemies, not one enemy (in which case it could be quite a few hits).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 23 décembre 2013 - 12:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <shuddering...>

MagicalMaster wrote...
When and where?  Are you talking about the level 6+ Orc Barbarian with the Scythe that you weren't supposed to find until doing two other districts and being at least level 5, likely 6+?

Loxar in No Man's Land?
Rolo did have a particularly tough time with him, but managed. In fact, no one else caused Rolo as much problems until much later. I think it was because there was no room to open the range...
Skeaver just smiled a little grimly.
Cestus Harrumphed.

No one else fits the description, though.

<...at the memory>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               Your henchmen is in trouble but you have to take AoO's to get to him. what to do?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <looks surprised...>

Run away and plot revenge, of course.




What?



No?

<...the question was even asked>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Westan Willows wrote...

Your henchmen is in trouble but you have to take AoO's to get to him. what to do?

Just go to him, one AoO doesnt kill you.
Alternatively you can use town portal, im not sure now if its available in SoU but it is in OC and HotU.

MM: As I said I dont deny the benefits, but I played many, really many characters, many of them was strenght based with no dexterity using full plate. Since I played and sometimes yet playing PWs I always saving skill points till max module level be it 30 or 40. I have never taken spting attack on these characters and never put tumble points on these characters until i took first level that had it as a class skill which was almost always around level 21 earliest. And I never had any problems with AoOs in my entire gameplay history. Yes sometimes I take one more hit at the start of the combat, but it is not that often as would one thought. Maybe its bugged, maybe its because usually my character has AC at least 15+ higher than attacker AB, but that is my experience despite what theory says.

And btw, if you have a pack of monsters why would you be running in a middle of them where they can easily surround you? Even if you dont care about surrounding (in which case you also dont care about AoO because your AC is high enough), even then I would attack the nearest monster to me, not in order to disallow others to completely surround me but because its faster.'>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 23 décembre 2013 - 01:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               Only in the OC can you portal out of combat. In SoU ch1 you can portal but NOT when you are in combat. Same in ch2. after you get the door '> In HotU you can get attacked from more then one direction.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               I usually start combat at the nearest choke point regardless '>

@MM:

Bioware Social awfulness strikes again. Lets email this
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

Aelis Eine wrote...

I usually start combat at the nearest choke point regardless '>

@MM:

Bioware Social awfulness strikes again. Lets email this

Not when you are ambush. Also I ask for help in making a Fighter not a cleric or wm etc. and I don't play in PW.
I play sp
:innocent:
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Westan Willows wrote...

Not when you are ambush. Also I ask for help in making a Fighter not a cleric or wm etc. and I don't play in PW.
I play sp
:innocent:

and you still need help? we thought you already get all the answers so we abused the thread for flame

btw WM is fighter '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               @ShaDoOoW  Have fun lol