Sorcerer questions

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               I don't use that build.
I go for a balance build

For Sorc/RDD

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 12
 INT  16
WIS 14
CHA 14

For pure Sorc

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 10
INT    16
WIS   12
CHA 16
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Westan Willows wrote...

I don't use that build.
I go for a balance build

And both of those builds are significantly worse -- you're losing out on your primary casting stat and a significant chunk of HP in exchange for...1 more skill point?  You're not a wizard, don't go above 14 int.  5 more pounds you can carry?  Bull's Strength, Bags of Holding, Magic Bags, henchmen, or friends.  1 more AC?  Either you can Cat's Grace to get 12 Dex even from 8 or your AC will be so awful it won't matter anyway.

In short, don't use those builds.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               I would never put wisdom to any sorcerer character. Not even in singleplayer module where are the conversation choices based on wisdom because:
1) in such modules there are also choices based on intelligence and charisma anyway
2) every such conversation is and must be solveable without it anyway
3) you lose hitpoints, skill points or casting power for what, three better choices in conversation thorought entire module?

- also giving 14str is pointless, if you go for a armored caster, 13 is enough
- 10str isn't that bad choice, its not 10 pound difference but 23 if you have +5str from buffs/items and more if you have higher increase from items/buffs which can be usefull in modules where you cannot load henchmens or persisten worlds, in official campaigns its needless though
- more than 8 dexterity for a sorcerer would be useably only for a arcane archer build which needs 16 at least anyway
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               I like 14 INT for Experise and extra bonus skills, but would not go beyond that for a Sorcerer.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

- also giving 14str is pointless, if you go for a armored caster, 13 is enough

Environment dependent -- the example I gave had a Tenser's that was actually very good so an extra AB and damage was very nice as I actually meleed a lot.

Also, unless you put 17 into Cha, you're going to have a spare point floating around if you put 13 in Str -- might as well make it 14.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Also, unless you put 17 into Cha, you're going to have a spare point floating around if you put 13 in Str -- might as well make it 14.

tenser polymorph has constant strength, base strength does not improve it

yes indeed with 13str you get 17cha which is not disadvantage but advantage

with 14str you can have only 16cha and either 10dex or 10wis which both are totally useless

17cha will:
1) grants you access to bonus slots from ability score in average 4 levels earlier - not mentioning that from start you usually find only +1 items for charisma which is just cloak by default so you can have even score sooner
2) at epic levels it spares one great charisma feat which can player exchange for hellball or the best feat for caster blind fight

And yes, in lvl 20 only persistent worlds, this might be disadvantage, but thats quire rare environment. In single players this doesnt matter - player dont know how many levels he get and also rarery gets +12bonus to charisma on items. In lvl 30/40 environment this has only advantages.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

tenser polymorph has constant strength, base strength does not improve it

I keep mentioning that it was a custom version of the spell but you keep assuming!

"Tenser's Transformation
- caster gains 2d4 STR and DEX, d6 hit points per caster level and +1
base attack bonus per 2 caster levels. You no longer polymorph into a
doom knight so you get to keep spell slots gained via magic items that
polymorphs unequip. AC bonus is now a +4 natural, not a +4 dodge. Simple
and Martial Weapon Proficiencies are added to your character via a
temporary feat addition to the character's currently equipped armor.
100% Spell Failure for duration, even from items."

ShaDoOoW wrote...

yes indeed with 13str you get 17cha which is not disadvantage but advantage

with 14str you can have only 16cha and either 10dex or 10wis which both are totally useless

Or maybe there's not an epic feat that would be more worthwhile than being able to drop a Great Charisma in that particular build.

And if you'll read up you'll notice I start nearly 100% of my sorcerers with 18 Charisma.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
I keep mentioning that it was a custom version of the spell but you keep assuming!

"Tenser's Transformation
- caster gains 2d4 STR and DEX, d6 hit points per caster level and +1
base attack bonus per 2 caster levels. You no longer polymorph into a
doom knight so you get to keep spell slots gained via magic items that
polymorphs unequip. AC bonus is now a +4 natural, not a +4 dodge. Simple
and Martial Weapon Proficiencies are added to your character via a
temporary feat addition to the character's currently equipped armor.
100% Spell Failure for duration, even from items."

I fail to see where you mentioned, that you builded sorcerer with this stats for custom modification of Tenser polymorph.
I fail to understand why you are giving advices that are assuming custom content changes when this thread is about general environment.

MagicalMaster wrote...
And if you'll read up you'll notice I start nearly 100% of my sorcerers with 18 Charisma.

But you suggested a stats choice where was 16charisma only. And I agree that 16is enough for a build with divine shield synergy. Which I assumed is the final outcome of that stat spread.
Also 13str doesn't exclude charisma if player decide he needs it, +2con -1int works great too.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I fail to see where you mentioned, that you builded sorcerer with this stats for custom modification of Tenser polymorph.

Right here:

MagicalMaster wrote...

If you have a specific idea for a build then you can certainly change those stats -- a full plate sorcerer I made for a particular PW started with...

14 Str
8 Dex
14 Con
10 Wis
14 Int
16 Cha

I might have had 10 Dex and 8 Wis, I forget some of the specifics of the world.  However, the world also had a far improved version of Tenser's where my sorcerer actually had a good presence in melee plus good defenses and a bunch of IGMSes.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I fail to understand why you are giving advices that are assuming custom content changes when this thread is about general environment.

Because I was pointing out that there ARE cases where you can change these starting stats and gave a specific example -- not to mention changing Tenser's is one of the more common changes I've seen.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

But you suggested a stats choice where was 16charisma only. And I agree that 16is enough for a build with divine shield synergy. Which I assumed is the final outcome of that stat spread.

Nah, 38 Sorc/1 Paladin/1 Monk.  Had +6 Dodge from Boots (maybe 5, I forget), 4 from Haste, 1 from Mage Armor, and 5 more from Epic Mage Armor.  Didn't have much room left for Divine Shield anyway.

Sure, I could have tweaked that build a bit more potentially but it wasn't really important -- server ended once you hit 40 anyway and you just started again.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 20 novembre 2013 - 01:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I would never put wisdom to any sorcerer character. Not even in singleplayer module where are the conversation choices based on wisdom because:
1) in such modules there are also choices based on intelligence and charisma anyway
2) every such conversation is and must be solveable without it anyway
3) you lose hitpoints, skill points or casting power for what, three better choices in conversation thorought entire module?

- also giving 14str is pointless, if you go for a armored caster, 13 is enough
- 10str isn't that bad choice, its not 10 pound difference but 23 if you have +5str from buffs/items and more if you have higher increase from items/buffs which can be usefull in modules where you cannot load henchmens or persisten worlds, in official campaigns its needless though
- more than 8 dexterity for a sorcerer would be useably only for a arcane archer build which needs 16 at least anyway

I put wisdom for WILL save not for conversation. I don't like going below 10 on abilitis. My Sorc has a yellow streek and will avoied close encounters. He will hit you with fireballs, MM etc from as far away as posible. :happy:
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan wrote...

ALAZANDER
AL1: Siege of Shadowdale
AL2: Crimson Tides of Tethyr
AL3: Tyrants of Moonsea

FWIW, Siege of Shadowdale had lots of drow and some invisible enemies but I was never in a situation where I wished I had Blind Fight.  It's possible you were thinking of another module but also possible you're simply far overestimating the value for a sorcerer -- and I'm prone to suspect the latter.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Westan Willows wrote...

I put wisdom for WILL save not for conversation. I don't like going below 10 on abilitis. My Sorc has a yellow streek and will avoied close encounters. He will hit you with fireballs, MM etc from as far away as posible. :happy:

will? protection against good/evil grant immunity to 99% will saving throws, clarity to the rest, not to mention that in singleplayer modules there are usualy mind immunity/fear immunity items, and that +1will hardly makes a difference and that with 1paladin level you get much more to saves
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

FWIW, Siege of Shadowdale had lots of drow and some invisible enemies but I was never in a situation where I wished I had Blind Fight.  It's possible you were thinking of another module but also possible you're simply far overestimating the value for a sorcerer -- and I'm prone to suspect the latter.

While possibly quite true, I have yet to create a long term character without this feat. It may be an overestimation over the mechanics, but not of it's worth to me. It is by far my fave Feat in the game.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               ShaDoOoW, I think Westan is beyond help, unfortunately.  You're wasting your breath.

Elhanan, I'd suggest trying to make a mage without it and see how it goes.  I doubt you'll miss it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

ShaDoOoW, I think Westan is beyond help, unfortunately.  You're wasting your breath.

Elhanan, I'd suggest trying to make a mage without it and see how it goes.  I doubt you'll miss it.

Quiting so soon? Instead of telling me how dumb I am why don't you explain 'WHY your built is better?

I am trying your first built and there doesn't seem to be much difference in play. His persude is better and thats it.