Sorcerer questions

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan wrote...

From the Wiki:

Specifics: This feat grants the character the ability to fight well, even if blinded or against invisible creatures. The character gets to re-roll its miss chance percentile one time to see if it actually hits. Furthermore, invisible creatures get no bonus to hit the character in melee.
Use: automatic

This feat effectively squares the effect of all concealment (reducing 50% to 25% and 10% to 1%). Furthermore, it negates all attacker miss chances (e.g. from blindness or darkness).

Looks like a bonus to me.

1. Reroll miss chance percentile.  Worthless unless you're physically attacking which you won't be as a mage past the first few levels (but godly for physical atttackers).
2. Current target doesn't get a +2 AB flanking bonus.

That is *IT.*  That's is ALL of the "bonuses" if you're blind.

However...

1. Your current target can still sneak attack you
2. You're flatfooted and lose all Dex and Dodge AC.
3. Every mob but the one you're targeting still has the standard +2 AB bonus.

From a mage's perspective, it's basically Dodge with 2 AC versus 1 AC except it only works while Blinded.  It's awful.

WhiZard wrote...

It safe guards dodge, dex, etc. when attacked by an invisible creature in melee.  I'm not sure why you are pressing the point on blindness, as I never brought that effect up.  And yes, there are several modules where you are stripped of all effects right before being thrust into a battle where some opponents are invisible.

I'm pressing the point on Blindness because Invisibility breaks once they attack.  Blind Fight is primarily useful for when a physical attacker is blinded by Sunburst/Word of Faith/Sunbeam or fighting someone with concealment -- and it's more powerful than Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus combined in those cases.

You're effectively saying that IF you have a high AC mage AND you have an enemy with low AB AND you don't have See Invis AND the enemy will go invisible AND them getting 1-2 attacks on you from Invis is a big deal, Blind Fight is useful.  

In other words, being stripped of all effects right before a battle isn't enough -- the enemies also need to have low enough AB and you high enough AC that they wouldn't hit you normally but will without Blind Fight and those first hits need to actually matter.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 12 novembre 2013 - 10:29 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

He will often be using his crossbow, sling, or bow to plink away at mobs while other party members or summons perform tanking duty.

Plink away is correct -- his AB and damage will be terrible past the first few levels.  Against a 50% concealed opponent, Blind Fight is a 50% damage increase...but a 50% increase to a tiny amount of damage per round is still a tiny amount of damage per round.  It would be like a level 40 fighter focused on Strength picking up Weapon Focus: Longbow -- his AB with it is going to be so terrible anyway that it's irrelevant.

Hitting twice as often is still hitting twice as often. No one is making the claim that taking Blind Fight will turn a caster into a competent melee or ranged combat toon. However, many modules have a fair number of mobs, opponents who aren't intended to be really challenging to fighter types (or casters who use good spells on them), but who are the grunts of the enemy camp, intended to wear down an intruder (the PC). They aren't hard to hit and even a mage will hit them enough to kill them or help his summons to do so, eventually. Of course, a competent fighter would mow through them quickly and a mage willing to use a Wail or similar spell will clear them out in a round or two. But, a mage playing that way in rest-restricted modules risks running out of good spells before taking down the bosses and lieutenants, or twiddling his thumbs while waiting for the rest of the party to take down mobs.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

In those cases, the defensive benefits to Blind Fight can be quite handy when dealing with invisible opponents, sneakers, or opponents who cause blindness or darkness.

What defensive benefits?

The only one I've found is that if you're fighting a single mob then they no longer get a +2 flanking bonus -- but fighting multiple mobs will still let the flankers get the +2 bonus.  So it's like +2 AC versus your current target only while Blinded -- but you're still flat footed, lost all your dodge/dex AC, and can get sneak attacked by everything automatically.

You may be right. It's been a long time since I checked what Blind Fight actually does in those situations.

Of course, fighting a single opponent at a time is a very common case for mages who aren't in nuke mode. Getting swarmed is generally something mages are well advised to avoid, especially with sneakers. The idea is to use ranged weapons to draw opponents back one at a time, hopefully to a waiting summons. Except perhaps for reciprocal damage strategies (where the PC wants to be hit, so BF is not helpful), rushing in and taking on a horde all at once is a mistake if one is conserving spells. Perhaps it's an artifact of where I play, but it's quite common to attempt to draw one opponent back and the first thing he does is swallow an invis potion or cast darkness on the PC. If he is a cleric (which the player may or may not know ahead of time), then Greater Dispelling, a summons, and Word of Faith are likely on their way.
 

Anyway, once again, I am certainly not saying the BF is a must-have feat for mages. Far from it. But, I have certainly played PC mages who spend much of their time doing low-to-moderate damage from the sidelines (admittedly, I play on a PW where Flame Weapon can be used on ammunition, which is a big help).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

1. Reroll miss chance percentile.  Worthless unless you're physically attacking which you won't be as a mage past the first few levels (but godly for physical atttackers).
2. Current target doesn't get a +2 AB flanking bonus.

That is *IT.*  That's is ALL of the "bonuses" if you're blind.

However...

1. Your current target can still sneak attack you
2. You're flatfooted and lose all Dex and Dodge AC.
3. Every mob but the one you're targeting still has the standard +2 AB bonus.

From a mage's perspective, it's basically Dodge with 2 AC versus 1 AC except it only works while Blinded.  It's awful.

Not worthless for me, as it has saved my bacon as a caster a number of times in mods and PW's. Of course, I do play Wizards; not Sorcerers, so perhaps the extra Skill pts are beneficial (eg; Listen may be higher). I simply noted that Rogues, Invisible Stalkers, and the like became much easier. And those early levels are important in getting to later ones.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
In other words, being stripped of all effects right before a battle isn't enough -- the enemies also need to have low enough AB and you high enough AC that they wouldn't hit you normally but will without Blind Fight and those first hits need to actually matter.

Which is often enough the case if your AC from items is high enough (e.g. full plate + shield + item bonuses + high tumble).  Throw in death attack paralysis, or stunning fist, and those first attacks really matter. 

Invisibility does not have to be one shot either: there is darkness (as a type of invisibility) and the less often used  improved invisible (the original improved invisibility that was replaced with invisibility + concealment).  I know a few modules that make the substitution to revert the spell back, and it has interesting results.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               seems the yes-to-blind-fight-for-casters camp is really big, interesting

We can argue about how much is blind fight useable for casters maybe three more pages, I dont think you change your opinion and Im absolutely certain that MM nor me change ours.

For me playing currently PvE blind fight is a last choice for merely every character. Monsters rarely use improved invisibility and those few who does can be usually negated by purge invisibility spell (scroll, potion, wand - when default crafting is enabled). Displacement is even more rarery used by monsters. Empty body is rare feat and monsters often forgets to use it because a quirk in AI. Remains incorporeal creatures but as long as I know my character don't met thousands of them the benefit of the Blind Fight is still very low. So Blind fight for me is a feat only when my character is for PvP or a specialist for fight against incorporeal creatures (usually undeads so its paladin).

For casters, there is SO MANY feats that are very usefull that blind fight isnt my choice not even for a spellsword build. Especially sorcerer who gets less feats than wizard dont have enough feat even for the basic feats so I would never gave sorcerer blind fight not even for PvP because damage shields, epic warding, epic mage armor, Pale Master prestige class bonuses, true seeing; each of this covers the situation where you suggest blind fight 100% effectively.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Funny that, as I try and take Blind Fight as early in the build as possible to offset Invisibility; not Epic feats.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

MrZork wrote...

Hitting twice as often is still hitting twice as often.

Where did twice as often come from?  If the creature is 50% concealed, it's a 50% increase, not 100%.  If you're Blinded, you can still only "see" the enemy in melee range.

And a wizard going from 2 damage per round to 3 damage per round while shooting a heavy crossbow is meaningless if a fighter is going from 20 damage per round to 30 damage per round or whatever.  The actual bonus is absolutely miniscule.

MrZork wrote...

However, many modules have a fair number of mobs, opponents who aren't intended to be really challenging to fighter types (or casters who use good spells on them), but who are the grunts of the enemy camp, intended to wear down an intruder (the PC).

Even if we accept this as being true, Blind Fight is still irrelevant unless the enemy is concealed.  Which is unlikely for enemy grunts.  Therefore, still not useful in this case for a mage.

MrZork wrote...

You may be right. It's been a long time since I checked what Blind Fight actually does in those situations.

If he is a cleric (which the player may or may not know ahead of time), then Greater Dispelling, a summons, and Word of Faith are likely on their way.

If the mage gets blinded then he'll be considered flat footed and loses all Dex/Dodge AC even WITH Blind Fight.  The enemy simply doesn't get a +2 AB bonus...but the mage has already lost so much AC it hardly matters.

MrZork wrote...

Anyway, once again, I am certainly not saying the BF is a must-have feat for mages. Far from it. But, I have certainly played PC mages who spend much of their time doing low-to-moderate damage from the sidelines (admittedly, I play on a PW where Flame Weapon can be used on ammunition, which is a big help).

As I said, even if this is true...it only matters if the opponent is concealed.  If the mage is blind, you can't shoot from range anyway.  So we're basically saying if the mage needs to shoot these grunts AND these grunts are concealed AND the mage's damage actually matters, Blind Fight MIGHT be useful for JUST his crossbow attacks.  That's a rather extreme circumstance and I can't see justifying a feat for it.

WhiZard wrote...

Which is often enough the case if your AC from items is high enough (e.g. full plate + shield + item bonuses + high tumble).  Throw in death attack paralysis, or stunning fist, and those first attacks really matter.

All right, sure.  IF you're going for a high AC mage (rare) AND you constantly get dispelled AND your opponents use invisibility THEN Blind Fight could be useful.  But that's a very, very specific build and environment.  By the same token the Spell Penetration line is very useful in some environment where the builders use scripts to add spell resistance beyond the toolset's maximum of 32.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

For me playing currently PvE blind fight is a last choice for merely every character.

I usually make sure I take it for physical attackers simply because the benefit is so massive when it's applicable...but yeah, I've never found it worthwhile as a caster in general.

Elhanan wrote...

Funny that, as I try and take Blind Fight as early in the build as possible to offset Invisibility; not Epic feats.

You'd give up 16% more HP from Toughness, longer buffs from Extended, or Spell Foci to make your few spells more powerful (for example, Spell Focus in Evocation generally makes Fireball do 5-10% more damage on average depending on the opponent's Reflex save) in order to take Blind Fight in the early levels?

I'm certainly not saying I've played everywhere, but I have *never* found myself in a situation where I wished I had taken Blind Fight.  Could you name an example or two of where you found it useful?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

You'd give up 16% more HP from Toughness, longer buffs from Extended, or Spell Foci to make your few spells more powerful (for example, Spell Focus in Evocation generally makes Fireball do 5-10% more damage on average depending on the opponent's Reflex save) in order to take Blind Fight in the early levels?

I'm certainly not saying I've played everywhere, but I have *never* found myself in a situation where I wished I had taken Blind Fight.  Could you name an example or two of where you found it useful?

Usually have Toughness and Extended; pass on Spell Focus as a rule.

Almost any mod that makes use of Drow and Darkness, Rogues with stealth, or opposing casters with Invisible creatures has seen the benefit of Blind Fight; pun intended. And while not all of these were with pure casters, as one that oft utilizes a base Melee Mage approach for my Wizards, it has been rather helpful.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Almost any mod that makes use of Drow and Darkness, Rogues with stealth, or opposing casters with Invisible creatures has seen the benefit of Blind Fight; pun intended. And while not all of these were with pure casters, as one that oft utilizes a base Melee Mage approach for my Wizards, it has been rather helpful.

Could you name some specific examples?  Actual mods or PWs?

For example, Aielund features stealthed mobs near the start...but you have two henchmen who you use to attract their attention so you're never attacked as a mage unless your tactics are awful.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               No; have played scores of mods, but all were loaded on an older system. However, one example that does come to mind is a Drow infested forest with lower lvl characters; possibly AL1, but am uncertain.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Funny that, as I try and take Blind Fight as early in the build as possible to offset Invisibility; not Epic feats.

Im taking expersise/improved expertise at 1st level and still/silent spell at 3rd to increase number of my offensive spells (stilled burning hands, stilled fireball - usually making high ac sorcerer with autostill later so I take still) then extend, empower, maximized, toughness at 15 (since earlier its benefits are yet too low to overcome benefits of already taken feats) and combat casting at 18 (only as a prereq for icc) and then I still need to take power attack and divine shield at epic levels.
But if it would be low lvl environment a lvl 18 would be the only place to take it, but thats usually where the story ends right?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Normally only take Extend and Empowered as meta-magic feats myself; prefer other options.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan wrote...

However, one example that does come to mind is a Drow infested forest with lower lvl characters; possibly AL1, but am uncertain.

AL1?

ShaDoOoW wrote...

then I still need to take power attack and divine shield at epic levels.

Sheesh.  Does everyone abuse paladin levels as a sorc?

I get that it's powerful, but...blargh. Makes me happy to see stuff like "Paladins can only get 1 saving throw per level," "Minimum 5 levels per class", or similar things.

Elhanan wrote...

Normally only take Extend and Empowered as meta-magic feats myself; prefer other options.

Why in the world would you not want to be able to cast Maximized Firebrands/Cone of Colds/Ice Storms/IGMS?

I cannot think of a single feat more important for mages than either of Maximize Spell and Empower Spell. An argument *could* be made for maybe skipped Silent/Still Spell in some environments, but otherwise?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

I cannot think of a single feat more important for mages than either of Maximize Spell and Empower Spell. An argument *could* be made for maybe skipped Silent/Still Spell in some environments, but otherwise?

ALAZANDER
AL1: Siege of Shadowdale
AL2: Crimson Tides of Tethyr
AL3: Tyrants of Moonsea

Again, uncertain if this was the series, but may have been.

I have used it for some High lvl caster mods by Hugie and others, but usually do not need it for many mods. As for PW's, on Aenea I have access to meta-magic staves if needed; usually don't. While others may agree with you, I skip picks like this and Dev Crit.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 14 novembre 2013 - 01:20 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
Sheesh.  Does everyone abuse paladin levels as a sorc?

Would you prefer to abuse monk levels?  Just 3 levels of monk and then stack mass haste with expeditious retreat.  You can outrun the clerics without any need to worry about casting a spell in their silence aura.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WhiZard, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:47 .