Sorcerer questions

[Legacy_tobtor]

               I have never played a magic user (OK, i have played a BArd, but not a pure caster).

I want to try out the Sorcerer class. So basically I have a few starting questions:

Which feats do I need to start of with? I plan to play as human, so I can select two, what should  focus on? IS the best solution something like combat casting or should I go for spell penetration or does in make sense to spend a feat or two in boosting saves (thoughness etc)?

Secondly; I thought Sorcerers where supose to get 5 cantrips and 3 1st level spells at lvl 1 (and more with high ability); but I only get 4 and 2 when I try to create a character (with both 16 and 18 cha) - so what is wrong? Is the game bugged?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par tobtor, 11 novembre 2013 - 01:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               I'll begin with your second question and work toward your first

Sorcerers (the same goes for bards) rely on two progressions for spell casting: their known spells, and the number of spells they can cast per day.  A sorcerer can only know four cantrips initially, and gains a fifth one at level 2 and sixth one at level 4 and a seventh one at level 7.  A sorcerer can cast 5 cantrips (6 beginning at level 2) even though this number exceeds the number that he knows.  Sorcerers accomplish this by spontaneous casting, meaning that a sorcerer never has to allocate which spells he is going to use for a particular day.  Instead the sorcerer can cast any cantrip until his total uses of cantrips reaches zero.

Now to your first question:

Because of spontaneous casting sorcerers often find meta-magic feats (like still spell, empower spell, and extend spell)  to be extremely useful as they allow lower level spells to be used toward the count of a higher level instead of at the count of their particular level (for example if I cast Isaac's Greater Missile storm, its stilled version, its empowered version, and its maximized version I would be dealing a boat load of damage using up four different spell levels worth of uses per day as the greater missile storm is one of the better damaging spells for a single target).  Some meta-magic feats, like extend spell do not work on many spells (such as missile storms) and thus are better weighed for their usefulness in keeping buffs up, rather than in their use of other slots.

In addition to metamagic, the sorcerer often want spell focus feats as this can make the spells harder to resist.  If you are multiclassing, spell penetration feats can often be of service, though pure builds often do not have to rely on them.

Combat casting, while it does make some sense early, really becomes meaningless as the levels progress, so it is often not taken. Arcane defense is also not high on the list, given that the spellcraft skill already provides a significant boost to saving throws versus spells.

Generic feats, like toughness and blind fight are also a good investment, as they improve the character significantly.  Toughness ends up netting 40 extra HP (at level 40) while blind fight provides a significant amount of defensive immunities (such as protecting from miss chance effects and keeping armor class bonuses when being attacked by a hidden creature).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WhiZard, 11 novembre 2013 - 04:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

tobtor wrote...

Which feats do I need to start of with? I plan to play as human, so I can select two, what should  focus on? IS the best solution something like combat casting or should I go for spell penetration or does in make sense to spend a feat or two in boosting saves (thoughness etc)?

Spell Penetration winds up being not very useful in most cases -- better off using a Breach spell to lower their Spell Resistance if needed in 99% of the cases instead of using a feat on it.  Combat casting is basically worthless.

As a sorcerer, you *need* three main feats in almost every environment.

Silent/Still Spell (I prefer Silent because, well, you can cast while Silenced)
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell

These allow you to use a given you want four times as much.  Facing a Fire Dragon?  Cone of Cold, Silenced Cone of Cold, Empowered Cone of Cold, and Maximized Cone of Cold.

This means you have four feats left (five for a human).  I would strongly recommend you focus in at least one spell school -- likely Evocation (spells like Fireball/Cone of Cold/Chain Lightning) or Necromancy (instant death spells like Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee).  You would get Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus.  You can also get both if you'd like (leaving you with one feat as a human or zero otherwise).

The other two main feats are Extend Spell and Toughness.  Extend Spell lets you make buffs last longer -- which is mainly an issue in environments where you cannot rest much.  Toughness gives you an extra hit point per level, which is often at least a 10% boost in health for sorcerers.

So there are the nine feats a sorcerer usually cares about.  If you're a human who only goes with one spell focus then you'll have one "spare" feat.  Your environment will determine which feat is useful.

On a persistent world, Craft Wand is often good for unlimited Flame Weapon/Improved Invisibilty/Stoneskin/Lesser Spell Breach along with a few other spells.  Scribe Scroll can be useful on persistent worlds for scrolls of the above along with scrolls of Mord's Disjunction, IGMS, Mind Blank, and some other spells.  Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will can be useful if a particular save is needed more.  In some unusual circumstances you might find another feat useful but it's very environment dependent.

Blind Fight is not useful for casters as your AC will stink and you aren't physically attacking enemies.  Incredible for physical attackers versus concealed/invisible opponents.

Non-Human Option 1
Silenced/Empower/Maximized
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
Extend/Toughness

Non-Human Option 2
Silenced/Empower/Maximized
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus

Human Option 1
Silenced/Empower/Maximized
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
Toughness

Human Option 2
Silenced/Empower/Maximized
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
Extend Spell

Human Option 3
Silenced/Empower/Maximized
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
Extend Spell
Toughness
Spare Feat

tobtor wrote...

Secondly; I thought Sorcerers where supose to get 5 cantrips and 3 1st level spells at lvl 1 (and more with high ability); but I only get 4 and 2 when I try to create a character (with both 16 and 18 cha) - so what is wrong? Is the game bugged?

As Whizard said, you can CAST five cantrips per day and three level 1 spells per day but you can only KNOW four and two at the moment.

It's a resource pool, basically -- you'll be able to cast more spells per day than you know but you don't have to choose ahead of time.  If you have both Firebrand and Cone of Cold you can cast Firebrand against a White Dragon and a Cone of Cold against a Red Dragon freely.  A wizard would have to pick his exact spells (like "I will memorize 5 Firebrands and 2 Cones of Cold") ahead of time and can only change when he rests (and hope he doesn't wind up using 2 Cones of Cold versus a Red Dragon and be stuck with 5 useless Firebrands).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Blind Fight is not useful for casters as your AC will stink and you aren't physically attacking enemies.  Incredible for physical attackers versus concealed/invisible opponents.

That conclusion is made because you went the silent route instead of the still route.  If you get Auto-Still III then blind fight is worth more.  Heavy armor and shield proficiency can be acquired from one level of paladin (which also is helpful to sorcerers as it allows them to add their charisma modifier to all saving throws).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WhiZard wrote...

That conclusion is made because you went the silent route instead of the still route.  If you get Auto-Still III then blind fight is worth more.  Heavy armor and shield proficiency can be acquired from one level of paladin (which also is helpful to sorcerers as it allows them to add their charisma modifier to all saving throws).

What "route?"  We're talking about a single feat -- Silent versus Still.

Auto-Still Spell is something entirely different than picking Silent or Still to manage your spellbook.

On top of that, Blind Fight is STILL worthless -- if you have True Seeing up, you can still see enemies while blinded and thus don't get sneak attacked and don't lose any AC bonus.  I don't care what the Wiki says, I've tested this in-game.  I had 58 AC on my character sheet, Blinded, True Seeing, and the enemy missed while rolling a 57.  No AC was lost despite not having Blind Fight and it couldn't Sneak Attack me either.

So if you were on a world that changes True Seeing AND you want the Auto-Still Spell AND they haven't nerfed the paladin saves AND they even allowing that kind of multi-classs, MAYBE Blind Fight could be useful.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 12 novembre 2013 - 12:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Hell, I just edited the Wiki to fix it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
Auto-Still Spell is something entirely different than picking Silent or Still to manage your spellbook.

You still need the still spell feat to take the auto-still, just as you need the silent spell feat to take the auto-silent.  Both still and silent feats work for spell management even after you have taken there epic variants.

On top of that, Blind Fight is STILL worthless -- if you have True Seeing up, you can still see enemies while blinded and thus don't get sneak attacked and don't lose any AC bonus. 

An undispellable protection safeguarding a significant amount of AC is never worthless.  You are just crossing your fingers that a beholder anti-magic cone doesn't get the better of you, and there are many modules where effect removal of this nature is commonplace.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WhiZard, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Blind fight is worthless for caster even for build with autostill, dispel is rarely encountered and being hit by invisible attacker (after dispel) is even more rare. Unless he builds character for pvp server where true seeing is modified to provide only skill bonuses this is waste of feat. On top of it, in single player there are items with true seeing itemproperty so...

It might have been usable feat pre-HotU but since HotU with damage shields, being hit is often advantaging and good strategy.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WhiZard wrote...

You still need the still spell feat to take the auto-still, just as you need the silent spell feat to take the auto-silent.  Both still and silent feats work for spell management even after you have taken there epic variants.

Sure, but Still is useless besides spell management while Silent allows you to do something while silenced -- which is a very, very real threat.  An enemy cleric just has to cast Silence on themself and then walk up to you.  Bam, you're silenced, no saving throw.

Does that happen often?  Not usually.  Is Silent Spell far more useful than Still Spell?  Yes.

WhiZard wrote...

An undispellable protection safeguarding a significant amount of AC is never worthless.  You are just crossing your fingers that a beholder anti-magic cone doesn't get the better of you, and there are many modules where effect removal of this nature is commonplace.

Except it doesn't even safeguard a significant source of AC.  At a minimum you still lose all Dodge AC -- a fighter with 3 Tumble AC, 4 Haste AC, and 4 AC from boots had at least 10 AC less when Blinded DESPITE having Blind Fight.  Guy had 64 AC and the enemy could hit him by rolling a 54 AB when the PC was blinded.

So you still lose a ton of AC (all Dex (unless you have Uncanny Dodge) and all Dodge), still get sneak attacked, and aren't using physical attacks.  The upside is incredibly minimal.

On top of that, you're suggesting a scenario where we have an armored mage AND there's a beholder who removes magic effects AND somehow you get Blinded AFTER losing True Seeing (but the Beholder doesn't remove the Blindness with another cone) AND you're getting attacked physically AND you're still perfectly okay with losing your Dodge AC somehow (which is going to be 10+ AC in most cases).

I don't see that ever happening.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Count me among fans of Blind Fight for casters. Not only does this Feat aid in fighting Invisible and concealed creatures, it negates their bonus in attacking, too. This can be useful way before Epic lvls and True Seeing, when Invis and Thieves become available and more commonly encountered. Seems very handy in becoming an Epic caster in the first place, IMO.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               I totally agree that, by itself, Combat Casting is a waste. It doesn't do what many think it does at first glance, where it is easy to overlook the fact that "casting defensively" isn't a generic term, but refers to a specific combat mode a caster can enter while casting. It's a mode that many casters seldom use because it's an extra mode to enter when a player is already busy deciding on spell use and it forces a concentration check to successfully cast a spell. Outside of that mode, CC has no value. It not hard to go through the math, but the short version is that 1) at low levels the defensive casting concentration check will often be failed, making casting unreliable and 2) at high levels, the caster's concentration will be high enough that the check will never be failed, so Combat Casting is of no value.

To be fair, it's worth mentioning that Improved Combat Casting (for which CC is prerequisite) can be useful. ICC prevents attacks of opportunity from casting without the need to enter defensive casting mode. That, by itself, can be a nice convenience (though most would probably say not worth the the investment of two feats). In addition, for modules which allow the combat mode Expertise (and Improved Expertise) while casting, ICC can be handy, since a toon can only have one combat mode active at a time. Thus, the toon avoids AoOs from casting while retaining the AC benefits of Expertise. Still not worth 2 feats, IMO, but some may think otherwise.

I think the Blind Fight issue is largely environment (module) dependent. I often skip Blind Fight with my casters, but I sometimes take it because there are so many environments in which it is an advantage. Many PWs and SP modules do two things that add to its utility. First, rest restrictions are very commonplace, and in those modules, it would be a mistake to design a mage assuming that he will be dealing with all opponents using his spells. In any module where there are rest restrictions, a mage (even a sorcerer) will have to plan on conserving his spells for the challenging opponents. But, those opponents often aren't the majority. He will often be using his crossbow, sling, or bow to plink away at mobs while other party members or summons perform tanking duty. The second environmental factor is that many modules make actual True Sight quite rare and change the spell so that it grants See Invisibility and Ultravision, possibly with some bonus to the spot skill. In those cases, the defensive benefits to Blind Fight can be quite handy when dealing with invisible opponents, sneakers, or opponents who cause blindness or darkness. And, of course, True Sight (even the default uber version) doesn't help hit concealed opponents with ranged weapons.

(BTW, that isn't to say that Blind Fight is a no-brainer in modules with rest restrictions and modified TS. But, it can be useful and those conditions are not especially rare.)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kaiser Arian XVII]

               Wizard ftw. Sorcerer sucks.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Count me among fans of Blind Fight for casters. Not only does this Feat aid in fighting Invisible and concealed creatures, it negates their bonus in attacking, too.

Exactly how does it aid in fighting them?  You still can't specifically target an invisible creature.  You still lose all Dodge AC.  You're still considered flat-footed.

MrZork wrote...

It not hard to go through the math, but the short version is that 1) at low levels the defensive casting concentration check will often be failed, making casting unreliable and 2) at high levels, the caster's concentration will be high enough that the check will never be failed, so Combat Casting is of no value.

Indeed.  There's a four level range where it guarantess you'll make the check when you'd otherwise fail.

MrZork wrote...

He will often be using his crossbow, sling, or bow to plink away at mobs while other party members or summons perform tanking duty.

Plink away is correct -- his AB and damage will be terrible past the first few levels.  Against a 50% concealed opponent, Blind Fight is a 50% damage increase...but a 50% increase to a tiny amount of damage per round is still a tiny amount of damage per round.  It would be like a level 40 fighter focused on Strength picking up Weapon Focus: Longbow -- his AB with it is going to be so terrible anyway that it's irrelevant.

MrZork wrote...

In those cases, the defensive benefits to Blind Fight can be quite handy when dealing with invisible opponents, sneakers, or opponents who cause blindness or darkness.

What defensive benefits?

The only one I've found is that if you're fighting a single mob then they no longer get a +2 flanking bonus -- but fighting multiple mobs will still let the flankers get the +2 bonus.  So it's like +2 AC versus your current target only while Blinded -- but you're still flat footed, lost all your dodge/dex AC, and can get sneak attacked by everything automatically.

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Wizard ftw. Sorcerer sucks.

Funnily enough, it is extremely rare to find a situation where a sorcerer is inferior to a wizard but the reverse is commonly true.

Those rare situations usually involve Skills, needing a lot of magical feats due to specific server/module rules, or needing a huge variety of spells for a given level for some reason (like you need a Bigby's Crushing Hand AND Time Stop AND Mord's Disjunction AND Meteor Swarm AND Black Blade of Disaster for a fight somehow).,
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Exactly how does it aid in fighting them?  You still can't specifically target an invisible creature.  You still lose all Dodge AC.  You're still considered flat-footed.

From the Wiki:

Specifics: This feat grants the character the ability to fight well, even if blinded or against invisible creatures. The character gets to re-roll its miss chance percentile one time to see if it actually hits. Furthermore, invisible creatures get no bonus to hit the character in melee.
Use: automatic

This feat effectively squares the effect of all concealment (reducing 50% to 25% and 10% to 1%). Furthermore, it negates all attacker miss chances (e.g. from blindness or darkness).

Looks like a bonus to me.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Except it doesn't even safeguard a significant source of AC.  At a minimum you still lose all Dodge AC -- a fighter with 3 Tumble AC, 4 Haste AC, and 4 AC from boots had at least 10 AC less when Blinded DESPITE having Blind Fight.  Guy had 64 AC and the enemy could hit him by rolling a 54 AB when the PC was blinded.

It safe guards dodge, dex, etc. when attacked by an invisible creature in melee.  I'm not sure why you are pressing the point on blindness, as I never brought that effect up.  And yes, there are several modules where you are stripped of all effects right before being thrust into a battle where some opponents are invisible.