Author Topic: Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.  (Read 621 times)

Legacy_Integrity

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« on: October 01, 2013, 08:55:50 pm »


               Human
Lawful Good
Paladin(11)/Harper Scout(4)/Champion of Torm(5)

STARTING STATS:

STR - 14
DEX - 10
CON - 10
WIS - 15
INT - 10
CHA - 16

ENDING STATS

STR - 14
DEX - 10
CON - 10
WIS - 16
INT - 10
CHA - 20

BASIC STATS:

Hitpoints: 186
Skillpoints: 77
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex):
19/20/18
Saving Throw Bonus: Spells: (Up to) +19
(See below)
BAB: 19
AB (max, naked): 22 (melee), 19
(ranged)
Spell Casting: Paladin(3)

LEVELING GUIDE:

1- Paladin(1) {Divine Grace, Divine
Health, Lay of Hands} Power Attack, Iron Will
2- Paladin(2) {Aura of Courage, Smite Evil}
3- Paladin(3) {Remove Disease, Turn Undead} Divine Might
4- Paladin(4)
5- Paladin(5)
6- Paladin(6) Alertness
7- Paladin(7)
8- Paladin(8)
9- Harper Scout(1) {Bardic Knowledge} Weapon Focus: (Warhammer*), Favored Enemy: Undeads
10- Champion of Torm(1)
11- Champion of Torm(2) {Sacred Defence} Cleave
12- Paladin(9) Divine Shield
13- Harper Scout(2) {Deneir's Eye, Sleep}
14- Champion of Torm(3)
15- Paladin(10) Extra Turning
16- Harper Scout(3) {Cat's Grace, Tymora's Smile}
17- Harper Scout(4) {Eagle's Splendor, Lliira's Heart}
18- Paladin(11) Extend Spell
19- Champion of Torm(4) Improved Critical (Warhammer*)
20- Champion of Torm(5) {Divine Wrath}

*Weapon subject to change. Advice?

SKILLS:

Discipline(12), Lore(6), Persuade(21), Search(4), Tumble(20), Save(10)*

1- Discipline(4), Lore(4), Persuade(4)
2- Lore(1), Persuade(1)
3- Lore(1), Persuade(1), Search(1)
4- Persuade(1), Search(1)
5- Persuade(1), Search(1)
6- Persuade(1), Search(1)
7- Persuade(1)
8- Persuade(1)
9- Persuade(1), Tumble(5), Save(3)*
10- Save(6)*
11- Save(9)*
12- Persuade(3), Save(9)*
13- Persuade(1), Tumble(5), Save(8)*
14- Save(11)*
15- Persuade(2), Save(12)*
16- Persuade(1), Tumble(5), Save(11)*
17- Persuade(1), Tumble(5), Save(10)*
18- Persuade(1), Discipline(2), Save(10)*
19- Discipline(3), Save(10)*
20- Discipline(3), Save(10)*

*I have no idea whether I want thesepoints in Discipline or Listen. Help?

Starting from the top: Human for the skill points an essential extra feat, and Lawful Good because Paladin (I'm not going to RP an evil Paladin... this time).



At Paladin level 11 (with 16 WIS) I get a third level spell slot. I'll mostly use this for Extended Eagle's Splendor. Harper Scout 4 gives me a cast of Eagle's Splendor that stacks with the Paladins. Champion of Torm gives me Divine Wrath, along with some nice feats, Sacred Defence II, and second uses of Smite Evil/Lay on Hands.

While I'm saddened by the low Con of this build. However, to get a 3rd level spell at 11, I need at least 16 WIS, I need 10 INT for skill points (I wouldn't go below 9 any way), I don't want a negative AC modifier from less than 10 DEX, and I don't want and I'm not willing to sacrifice STR or CHA to get it. Hopefully, with careful play, this should be a non-issue.

In my current game of NWN, the first I've ever played past the opening parts of Chapter 1 (Done the Prelude a lot in comparison...), I'm running a Paladin 19/Cleric 1 (Sun/War domains, and wishing I'd gone Sun/Strength). I've enjoyed the experience, but, now that I've played a little Paladin, and begin to figure out how the class plays, I felt I could do much better.

This build focuses on the synergy between Paladin and Harper Scout, to increase CHA insane levels for Divine Might and Shield, while getting extra feats and Divine Might from Champion of Torm. In a perfect roll, at level 20, this character should have a +5 CHA modifier base, +5 from two perfect Eagle's Splendor rolls, +4 from Aura of Glory, plus whatever CHA bonuses (if any) I can get from my gear. Unarmed, with a damage roll of 1, I'd hit for at least 15 if you only include my CHA modifier from Divine Might, and that doesn't include my STR modifier, especially after buffed by Bull's Strength, or any other buffs, such as Bless or Divine Wrath.

That being said, I want to use a bludgeon weapon as my main, due to disliking losing damage to undead, and, since I can't spare a feat for Exotic Weapons, it leaves me with much to be desired as far as blunt weapons go. I've heard there are enemies with resistances to bludgeon weapons though, and, if there is a weapon type that never gets resisted, I'd love to know (I value consistency over raw damage). As an aside, why can't there be a non-exotic 2-Handed blunt weapon that doesn't look terrible? I'm looking at you Heavy Flail.

I don't know if I have too many points in Persuade for the OC (what is the highest Persuade check?). I also don't know if 10 points in Listen would help me enough to justify picking it over Discipline. I feel that, with proper gear, I can effectively ignore Discipline, but I don't know where I'd rather have those points outside of Listen.

Seeing as I'm trying to get all my abilities as soon as possible (if I wait until 20, then the campaign will likely already be over), I realize the levels I take things could probably be much better. I'd love any advice on the matter you can give, and any problems that stand out with the character. Thank you for your time. '<img'>
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Integrity, 01 octobre 2013 - 07:59 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 06:52:26 am »


               I'll look at this more later but I want to mention a few things.

One, the Harper Scout is really wasted here.  In particular, you don't seem aware that you cannot get more than +12 of a stat from gear/spells.  More paladin or more champion levels would help far more.

Two, the Champion is also kind of wasted.  +3 AB/damage for 11 rounds max once a day is really not impressive -- especially considering you're giving up several level 1-2 spells that would give +5 AB/damage for 10 or 20 rounds.  In addition, the Smite Evil and Lay on Hands is the same feat as the paladin -- you still only get one use per day.

You're honestly probably best off going pure paladin in this case.  Much better spells, better AB, and longer buffs.  HS is very tricky to work into a build and you shouldn't take Champion of Torm in most cases unless you really need extra feats.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 07:23:25 am »


               Just passing by briefly but will examine in more detail later (if others don't make the points I would)...

First, OC is level 18 max SOLO, so knock off the last 2 levels in your guide.  If you use your hench i most battles, you probably will hit around Lvl 17. That means you'll need to get Imp Crit in sooner if you plan on doing serious smiting (which really isn't needed in the OC btw).  But vs. undead, crit smites are impossible anyway.

The "insane" Cha level you can reach is 32 (+11) if you give up the 1 Wis, 31 (+10) if not.  I seriously doubt if targeting AoG for extended use will matter much, if at all, with all the Cha-boosting gear available.  Eagle's should be enough to reach the cap. For that reason, my impulse would be to lean on more CoT levels, both for saves and to resolve the relative feat starvation (I see no KD feat vs. spellcasters in this plan). At any rate, I recommend keeping CoT in even numbers to maximize its effectiveness in pre-epic.  The thing is... in a short campaign like the OC when you triple class, you'll dilute the potential of most builds because spellcasting will develop too slowly for paladin and HS.  Any further clarification or examples would tend to be spoilerish here.

Personally, I would go with scimi for 2 reasons: 1) equipment availability and 2) much better chance to crit smite will probably beat x3 of WH in the long run.  Only skels are resistance to slash & pierce.  The rest of the undead are equally affected by all damage types.  Against neutrals & goods (non-smite targets), scimi should do better. But it really comes down to what you prefer rather than a statistical optimization.  Really.

I would like to comment further on choices specifically for the OC but you would need to repost in the OC subforum to read that sort of info.  This is a Non-Spoiler format in the General forum.

edit: removed spoiler text... oops '<img'>

edit2: MM kinda ninja-ed a slow typist (me) but I agree with him.  

Either pure pally or pal12/cot6 for +3 saves and 3 more feats... probably all the feats you could want.  The 12/6 split would allow you to take WF, PA/Cleave, DM/DS, Imp Crit, KD/IKD, Blind Fight and either Extra Smiting or Grt Cleave.  Disarm/Imp Disarm is another alternative.  I would spread starting abilities at either Str13/Dex10/Con10/Wis14/Int13/Cha16(20) for a pal18 or  Str14/Dex10/Con10/Wis13/Int13/Cha16(20) for a pal12/cot6 (probably a sequence like pal7/cot6/pal5 should work well enough) build.  Those spreads seem to be versatile enough to allow some feat diversity.  The only problem with a Cha-based build is AB, not with smiting but with normal attacks... but that is the trade-off.  Fortunately, the OC demands little and with a high BAB you should not have trouble hitting enough against most of the foes you will confront in that campaign.

You should decide if you prefer the +5 GMW enhancement with pal18 that can pierce stoneskin DR by pal15 or settle for +4 enhancement with the hybrid class split. And the Divine Wrath, if that is one of your considerations, if kind of meh, as far as I am concerned, echoing what MM has commented about its use in-game.

As for HS... that is typically used in epic levels to grab extra bonus feats that would otherwise be unavailable.  I have never seen an epic build that used less than 5 HS levels to exploit that fact, probably for good reason. IMO HS just dilutes the potential in a pally pre-epic only build.  
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:18 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Integrity

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 03:15:07 pm »


               First, can I get a mod to move this to the OC subforum?

Secondly, it is a shame about the cap on stat boosts. The concept of this character was rather exciting (for me any way). I do play entirely solo, so that helps. I was trying to make a character that is better at using Divine Might than simply going 20 paladin.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 03:28:26 pm »


               

Integrity wrote...

First, can I get a mod to move this to the OC subforum?

Secondly, it is a shame about the cap on stat boosts. The concept of this character was rather exciting (for me any way). I do play entirely solo, so that helps. I was trying to make a character that is better at using Divine Might than simply going 20 paladin.

Just continue it there yourself.  No need to copy the whole thing, just hyperlink the original thread to that new one.  DM/DS won't improve with HS levels (unless I am missing something here), just certain saves & FE's if you choose to go that way. Those ability caps are default values.  Some worlds have expanded them IIRC I've seen them up to +20 on some servers. But as I mentioned previously, unless you spend time tediously exploiting XP farming, you will just make 18 at or around the final battle in the last chapter.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 03:58:23 pm »


               

Integrity wrote...

First, can I get a mod to move this to the OC subforum?


I'd just make a new thread there if you want advice specific to the OC.  We can only talk in general terms/principles here.

Integrity wrote...

Secondly,
it is a shame about the cap on stat boosts. The concept of this
character was rather exciting (for me any way). I do play entirely solo,
so that helps. I was trying to make a character that is better at using
Divine Might than simply going 20 paladin.


Could technically go 20 cleric and be better at using it with the insane buffs they get.

HipMaestro wrote...

For that reason, my impulse would be to lean on more CoT levels, both for saves and to resolve the relative feat starvation (I see no KD feat vs. spellcasters in this plan).


My main concern is GMW and Divine Favor.  Getting a weapon to +5 ASAP is a massive bonus - it's like 20-30% more damage and cuts through Stoneskin/Greater Stoneskin/Premonition.  Couple that with getting +5 AB/damage from Divine Favor versus +3 and it's a massive difference.

HipMaestro wrote...

Personally, I would go with scimi for 2 reasons: 1) equipment availability and 2) much better chance to crit smite will probably beat x3 of WH in the long run.  Only skels are resistance to slash & pierce.  The rest of the undead are equally affected by all damage types.  Against neutrals & goods (non-smite targets), scimi should do better. But it really comes down to what you prefer rather than a statistical optimization.  Really.


Well, liches/demiliches are as well.  But especially with the Bless Weapon spell (7 extra damage versus undead) it shouldn't be a big deal.  Rapier is technically also equivalent to scimitar except it does piercing instead of slashing).

HipMaestro wrote...

I would spread starting abilities at either Str13/Dex10/Con10/Wis14/Int13/Cha16(20) for a pal18 or  Str14/Dex10/Con10/Wis13/Int13/Cha16(20) for a pal12/cot6 (probably a sequence like pal7/cot6/pal5 should work well enough) build.


I'd go...

Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 14

The OC is easy enough you could drop the Con down for more Str/Int/Cha, I suppose.

HipMaestro wrote...

You should decide if you prefer the +5 GMW enhancement with pal18 that can pierce stoneskin DR by pal15 or settle for +4 enhancement with the hybrid class split.


It's not just the piercing, it's also the +1 flat damage bonus and 10-15% bonus overall.  Plus it's also another AB/damage from Divine Favor.  Plus longer duration and more Prayers (and things like Death Ward/Freedom of Movement if you lack immunities on items).  The last few levels of paladin are really powerful (up to level 20).
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 04:01:40 pm »


               

HipMaestro wrote...

DM/DS won't improve with HS levels (unless I am missing something here), just certain saves & FE's if you choose to go that way.


The Eagle's Splendor buff from Harper Scout stacks with the normal Eagle's Splendor spell.  But it's not worth investing 5 levels pre-epic for 2.5 average charisma at the cost of HP, spellcasting, and 2  BAB.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 04:07:10 pm »


               

MagicalMaster wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...

DM/DS won't improve with HS levels (unless I am missing something here), just certain saves & FE's if you choose to go that way.


The Eagle's Splendor buff from Harper Scout stacks with the normal Eagle's Splendor spell.  But it's not worth investing 5 levels pre-epic for 2.5 average charisma at the cost of HP, spellcasting, and 2  BAB.

Ahhh.  Interesting.  Does the HS Eagle's count towards the cap?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Integrity

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2013, 04:08:47 pm »


               

MagicalMaster wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...

DM/DS won't improve with HS levels (unless I am missing something here), just certain saves & FE's if you choose to go that way.


The Eagle's Splendor buff from Harper Scout stacks with the normal Eagle's Splendor spell.  But it's not worth investing 5 levels pre-epic for 2.5 average charisma at the cost of HP, spellcasting, and 2  BAB.


This is pretty much what I needed to hear (although I only planned to take 4 levels of HS). I thought the double Eagle's Splendor would be powerful, but it seems largely unnecessary. Shame. I'd have gone 14 Pal/4 HS instead if I thought it was worth it, but it seems 18 paladin, 1 Cle/17 Pal, or some split of CoT, are all better options.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Integrity, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:14 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 04:19:43 pm »


               

Integrity wrote...

This is pretty much what I needed to hear (although I only planned to take 4 levels of HS). I thought the double Eagle's Splendor would be powerful, but it seems largely unnecessary. Shame. I'd have gone 14 Pal/4 HS instead if I thought it was worth it, but it seems 18 paladin, 1 Cle/17 Pal, or some split of CoT, are all better options.

Possibly in an extremely low magic environment, your rationale may hold more weight. But the OC is medium magic with caps not very difficult to reach with available gear.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 04:19:43 pm »


               

HipMaestro wrote...

Ahhh.  Interesting.  Does the HS Eagle's count towards the cap?


Everything counts towards the cap.  I believe the spell IDs are simply different hence why they stack but I'm not sure of that offhand.

Integrity wrote...

This is pretty much what I needed to hear (although I only planned to take 4 levels of HS). I thought the double Eagle's Splendor would be powerful, but it seems largely unnecessary. Shame. I'd have gone 14 Pal/4 HS instead if I thought it was worth it, but it seems 18 paladin, 1 Cle/17 Pal, or some split of CoT, are all better options.


1 Cle/17 Paladin isn't worth going over 18 paladin.  You gain like...2-3 level 1 spells that last for 1 minute and are weak at the cost of a +5 AB/damage Divine Favor.  You also lose an AB.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 04:23:00 pm »


               

HipMaestro wrote...

Possibly in an extremely low magic environment, your rationale may hold more weight. But the OC is medium magic with caps not very difficult to reach with available gear.


Not even then.  You lose a lot of spellcasting and 1 AB for 2.5 charisma (would lose 2 AB at 5 Harper Scout but he said he was only taking 4 levels).
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Integrity

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 04:30:09 pm »


               

Magical Master wrote...

Integrity wrote...

This is pretty much what I needed to hear (although I only planned to take 4 levels of HS). I thought the double Eagle's Splendor would be powerful, but it seems largely unnecessary. Shame. I'd have gone 14 Pal/4 HS instead if I thought it was worth it, but it seems 18 paladin, 1 Cle/17 Pal, or some split of CoT, are all better options.


1 Cle/17 Paladin isn't worth going over 18 paladin.  You gain like...2-3 level 1 spells that last for 1 minute and are weak at the cost of a +5 AB/damage Divine Favor.  You also lose an AB.


The level in Cleric would be for the Sun/Strength domains. Still not worth it, but just wanted to explain the rationale. However, since Eagle's Splendor is 1d4+1, wouldn't that make the average 3 (once again, not worth it, but just checking)?

Either way, thank you all for the help and insight. It is a shame this isn't as good as it seemed. Double Eagle's Splendor, in conjunction with Divine Might (and Shield), sounded extremely fun.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Integrity, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:31 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 05:11:51 pm »


               Whoops, I'm tired.  Actually 3.5 (2.5 is for a d4 alone).

But yeah, you're already guaranteed 6 cha from aura of glory and worst roll eagle's and losing 4 paladin levels pre epic really hurts.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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Help with Pal/HS/CoT build.
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2013, 01:36:41 am »


               

MagicalMaster wrote...
Everything counts towards the cap.  I believe the spell IDs are simply different hence why they stack but I'm not sure of that offhand.


Correct, those ability increases stack because of different spell IDs (if they had the same spell ID only the larger would be used).