I am clueless and overwhelmed.

[Legacy_Kier1992]

               I decided before I begin my adventure that I would look for a build to follow. I have found two Sorcerer builds but if they are really viable so I figured I should just ask.

http://www.gamebansh...es/sorcerer.php
http://nwn.wikia.com..._pale_master_12

I also learned that Sorcerers are limited to spells, while Wizards are not. Sorcerers apparently for experienced users - Those that know what spells to pick. Wizards much better for beginners. Can anyone weigh in on that?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Is this your first character you've ever played?  And for the original NWN campaign?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kier1992]

               Yes it is
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               Wizards can learn pretty much any number of spells, but must decide before resting which spells (of the ones they know) that they want to be able to cast.  They also typically gain access to the next level of spells one class level earlier than sorcerers.

Sorcerers learn fewer spells, but they are able to cast any spell they know at any time, so long as they have open "spell slots" of that spell level.

Take a 1st level wizard for example.  He may know 6 different spells 1st level spells, but only be able to cast 3 1st level spells per day.  He must pick from those 6 known spells...three different spells, or two magic missiles and a mage armor, for instance.

A sorcerer may only know 2 or 3 spells to start out, but after resting he can cast more spells per day, and he can pick which to cast at the time of casting.

For a new player that wants to do a spellcaster, I'd actually go with sorcerer.  You only have to know the details of a few spells, you don't have to plan ahead as much (thanks to not having to decide ahead of time which spells to prepare), and you can typically fire off more spells per day than a wizard.  You still get a familiar to help you out, and in NWN you can always change out your known spells each time you level up.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               What race do you want?

And the thing to understand about magic in NWN is that it's based on something called Vancian magic.  If you want to cast a Fireball spell, you need to put it in your spellbook and rest.  If you decided you'd rather cast Lightning Bolt instead (another spell of similar power) - too bad, you memorized Fireball.  To cast Lightning Bolt, you need to remove Fireball, put in Lightning Bolt, and rest.

Magic also has something called spell levels - the higher the spell level, the stronger the spell (generally).  Burning Hands is a level 1 spell.  Fireball is a level 3 spell.  Meteor Swarm is a level 9 spell.  In addition to Burning Hands, Mage Armor and Summon Creature I are also level 1 spells (among many others).

So if you have 5 level one spell slots available, you could do something like memorize 3 Burning Hands, 1 Mage Armor, and 1 Summon Creature I.  If you cast Mage Armor and Summon Creature I, then have the summon die and you want to recast Summon Creature I again - you can't.  Because all you have is 3 Burning Hands (until you rest).  In other words, you have to pick both the type of spell and how many of the spell to memorize - but you're free to constantly change what spells you have memorized (so you might know 10 level 1 spells and swap them around between rests).

A sorcerer (and bard) says "That's a terrible magic system, I'm way cooler."  Instead of knowing a bunch of spells and then choosing which ones to prepare (and how many of each), they pick a limited number of spells to know and then cast whatever they'd like for that spell level as long as they haven't used up all their available spells.

So if a Sorcerer knows Mage Armor, Burning Hands, and Summon Creature I and has 5 level 1 spells per day, he can cast any one of those spells at any time until he's cast 5 level 1 spells.  But if he suddenly needs a cold damage spell instead of fire, he's out of luck - he cannot change his spells known until he levels again.

So a Wizard is freer to experiment with spells but it also has a lot less flexibility while casting.  Both are powerful in their own right and have their own advantages (though I personally prefer Sorcerers and think they're stronger overall - but Wizards definitely are superior in some situations).

Which of those sounds more interesting to you?  Being able to cast any spell as long as you know it (but you have then specify exactly which spells you want and how many of them you want to cast) or being limited in your spells known but being able to freely cast within that selection?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               For learning about mages and particularly about arcane spells and when to use them in a SP campaign like the OC, I would really go with a wizard toon first. (And don't specialize in a spell school, either. Save that until after learning what spells are useful in what situations and figuring which ones one can do without.) You will get way more experience with what spells are available at each level and in which situations you want them in your arsenal. In addition, wizards get extra caster feats you will learn likely more about mage feat utility playing a wizard toon than a sorcerer.

Don't misunderstand: There are lots of advantages to spontaneous casters and there are definitely excellent sorcerer builds out there. But, since this is for the OC (where you can survive with nearly any build) and since the OP isn't familiar with mages, playing a wizard will give valuable experience that he just won't get with a sorcerer. Half of playing a sorcerer well is picking good spells to learn for each level. But, that also means that it's possible (likely even) to play a sorcerer through his whole career without ever knowing what many spells do. As a wizard, if one picks spells while leveling that don't seem to be doing much good, there is always the option of going back to town and buying some scrolls. Simiarly, if a tough encounter goes badly and leaves a player wondering which spells are worth having ready when facing a particular type of foe, then a easy reload and shuffle of the spell book before resting can let him replay the encounter and learn what works. Playing a wizard will allow the player to experiment with many more spells and learn enough about them that, when he does play a sorcerer, he will be able to pick usable spells and not get stuck with a level 10 sorcerer looking for Quint Jhareg with Mind Fog as his fifth level spell. ;-)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

MrZork wrote...

(And don't specialize in a spell school, either. Save that until after learning what spells are useful in what situations and figuring which ones one can do without.)

If you do decide to go with a wizard, this is good advice for the first one.

MrZork wrote...

You will get way more experience with what spells are available at each level and in which situations you want them in your arsenal. In addition, wizards get extra caster feats you will learn likely more about mage feat utility playing a wizard toon than a sorcerer.

True to some degree on the feats, but you will need to buy and learn spells from scrolls to truly know a ton of spells.

MrZork wrote...

 Playing a wizard will allow the player to experiment with many more spells and learn enough about them that, when he does play a sorcerer, he will be able to pick usable spells and not get stuck with a level 10 sorcerer looking for Quint Jhareg with Mind Fog as his fifth level spell. ;-)

Well, in this case we'd be providing a spell list to prevent such a situation.

I also recall my first character was a sorcerer, I had no clue about DnD, and I managed to make it through (I was an elf sorcerer wielding a rapier and using default summons.  Ugh.).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Ancient Stuck In the Mud here with a personal opinion....

Love Wizards; loathe Sorcerers. Why? Because Sorcerers are based on CHA, and that has very little application in much of the game, esp on PW's. OTOH, Wizards are based on INT, and this also helps Skills among other things. And a Wizard/ Rogue is a wondermous example of synergetics.

Love freecasting like Sorcerers and Bards (and Clerics to a small degree), and offer this as a PnP home rule to all casters, but have had little reason to try it in this game, even after all these years. Yeah, there are some powerful builds and such for Sorcerers, but it still comes down to CHA. And I still cannot get past the "Fear me, for I am personable" baggage....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               "It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."

Basically, it goes like this...

Wizard: I am super smart and study lots of books and with my super smartness I can do magic.

Sorcerer: Study magic?  I'm just gonna control it with the sheer force of my will and bend the laws of physics to my whims.

Cheese-wise, stuff like Sorc/Paladin (or Blackguard) can be crazy.  Wizard/rogue can have lots of skills but Sorc/Paladins can be nigh indestructible.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               So I have read. But it still is based on CHA, which has very little else to do in the game.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Well, consider this - what would Gandalf be?

Do we see him constantly studying tomes for magic?  No (he does for knowledge, but not magic).

Magic is simply a fundamental part of him - more like a sorcerer.  Control of magic through personal strength instead of careful study.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               RP examples are abundant, and many of such cases could be used on either Class. But the mechanics of NWN have little use for CHA besides free casting and Persuasion skills; not my choice of the day. Simply warning the newbies of this speedbump in the road.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               True - but unless you're doing skill dumps, having access to more skill points doesn't help very much.  The combat skills are Concentration, Spellcraft, and maybe Tumble for a mage.  Anything else is gravy by default but usually irrelevant to combat.

And your stealth/open lock scores would be abysmal - disable trap/search might be reasonably high but you'd still need rogue levels to detect the high end traps.

Anyway, let's not confuse the new guy too much.  What we're saying boils down to is that wizards versus sorcs have different multiclass options and have different benefits, some of which are more useful than others in certain situations.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 05 septembre 2013 - 11:17 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               I rarely use massive Skill dumps, and am willing to often go with 8 or 10 lvls of Rogue with Wizard, and with UMD to cover Divine items, this makes for fairly versatile character. I prefer icing over gravy....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               But then we're getting very far away from the idea of a pure-ish arcane caster which is what the OP wants.  So let's not go down that route in this thread for his sake.