Why haven't anyone done a game like NWN since?

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

I think lots of NWN content is worth some money. I dont know how much the people were paid via the contracts with bioware but the released CODI content alone is worth more then todays crappy DLC stuff from some greedy office companys. I dont mean a gaming studio but a office lion company that just use the entertainment sector as a money machine. On the other hand modders who can make money can become so greedy and selfish and so the whole spirit of "modding" a game is gone. Money attracts some naughty personalities imo and maybe thats the reason why free modstuff communities are way more cool and grounded.

 

And that we can make money with NWN is uhm over... donations would work but nothing else. No one is gonna paying for a mod just to play it. If it is so good that people are so impressed that they want to support you then do it via donations but dont force anyone into that stinky money shoe.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Sumthing]

               

I think lots of NWN content is worth some money. I dont know how much the people were paid via the contracts with bioware but the released CODI content alone is worth more then todays crappy DLC stuff from some greedy office companys. I dont mean a gaming studio but a office lion company that just use the entertainment sector as a money machine. On the other hand modders who can make money can become so greedy and selfish and so the whole spirit of "modding" a game is gone. Money attracts some naughty personalities imo and maybe thats the reason why free modstuff communities are way more cool and grounded.

 

And that we can make money with NWN is uhm over... donations would work but nothing else. No one is gonna paying for a mod just to play it. If it is so good that people are so impressed that they want to support you then do it via donations but dont force anyone into that stinky money shoe.

 

 

Well, you could still have a premium module system in any new game couldn't you, with the game creators making modules that you buy?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Cablefish]

               

Hey Zunath! Been a while since we messed up stuff together '>

 

I'm totally up for supporting it from a hobbyist perspective as i'm not a coder. I've seen your neat skills at work and it sounds great with the 2D and all. Actually i think the 2d could work really well with the upcoming games like Pillars of Eternity and Torment why are gonna make it big in "our" circles.

 

Lets see if i can offer you anything (writing or something). I'll write my mail to you on Xfire. See you!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_tleilaxu]

               

I've been working on a project similar to NWN for the past few months. It's still early, and there's only one person developing it (me) but my goal is to offer three tools: a toolset, a server application, and the game client.

 

My biggest hurdles right now are finding developers to assist with writing the code and obtaining art assets.

 

Here's a few screenshots of the work-in-progress:

 

http://i9.photobucke...zpsae3026e8.png

http://i9.photobucke...zps35f07773.png

http://i9.photobucke...zpsf3a18476.png

 

 

Is there any interest in a project like this? Would anyone want to help with its development?

 

 

This is looking great. I would think that the community would really stand behind a project such as this. Have you tried taking it to Reddit to get some response? 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

Hail all. 

 

Most of you wont recognize me but this is a question asked many times over the years; refreshed when the successor game came out.

 

I am a very old timer who has been missing in action for years.

 

I do wonder if some Indy company may yet "understand the original business model of Dungeons&Dragons" and kick-start the intellectual successor.

 

1) D&D succeeded being a "modular publication company". It was fresh and exciting because of periodic "content updates" that was cheaper than the core book "system". New Modules and Dragon Magazine.

 

2) Yes there was copy write infringement in those days. It was called the Library photocopier. We pooled our money - bought the latest supplement module "Descent to the Vault of the Drow" and photocopied it.  Then when we saved enough - the other bought their own copy "for safekeeping". Much like the CD industry in the current digital music age - people buy CDs. There are any number of mechanisms now a days to control computer copywrite hacking - not the least of which is Steam for example. However even then it may not be necessary. 

 

(If you can find it - Alazander - a Hall of Fame NWN Author moved opinion on NWN2 with a blog. Its worth a read).

 

3) They temporarily lisc fan favorites themes. Greymouser & Fahfred - Lahkmar, Conan, and due to a peaceful slip up Elric of Melnibonne. Limited run content we were willing to pay for.

 

4) Bioware was truly on the correct path with Premium modules; however they may have been motivated to produce them by other contractual issues with Atari ; not purely for the growth of the game.

 

Now a successor game that offered more or less what NWN does:

 

1) A simple single player game - don't over invest here

2) multiplayer and GameMaster tools and

3) toolset

 

..will succeed especially if the "premium modules" business model is FULLY implemented. The Graphics can even be "sub optimal" if the content is correct.

 

Small royalty based payments to fan creators who would bear the development costs - and larger royalty's to the IP holder. The IPs get something for nothing with final approval on something their own "number 1 clients" likely created.

 

Imagine a generic medieval "fantasy game" (Pathfinder perhaps) with:

 

1) Runequest themed content created by Fans and sold a premium modules for $10.00 digital download. 

 

2) Judge Guild City State of the Invincible Overlord themed content - as above

 

3) Tunnels and Trolls - as above.

 

Clearly certain IP's would never cooperate. The successors of the Tolkien Estate for example. I am unsure of GRRMartin.

 

But I seriously do not doubt that a person like Michael Moorcock would at least consider cooperating with such a "fan loyal" driven business module.

 

Guy Gavriel Kay would be another such (Tigana, Arbonne) author I suspect would be intrigued. 

 

It would work ! It does work !

 

Its called Itunes nowadays in non CRPGs applications but perhaps someday someone will wake up '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Hi, jFoxTail, basically I agree with you but the mention of the premium modules deserves a reply from me.

 

While I basically agree that premium modules were the right path to go, the way they have been implemented was not at all.

 

1) encrypting them in order to prevent those who bought them to edit them is extremely bad idea.

2) online authentication check is also quite bad idea, especialy when the policies of the game industry companies these days are to cut off every support after one/two years when the game is not earning enough money anymore - we are very lucky the Bioware still maintaining the server for premium online authentication and even for those who haven't paid them. I wouldn't expect it will last forever though...

3) lack of translations - Im not a native english speaker and while I do understand, reading the story in english is not that immersive as it would be in my native language. This would be something that community could provide if only the premium modules weren't encrypted.

 

But yes, the basic idea was indeed good, yet the implementation killed it. The above points (well mainly the 3rd actually) are reason's I haven't bought any of them.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

If someone would just do an engine that is so simple to mod with like nwn and has a roleplaying system as a template you can build on I would work for free for it. But no one has done it yet and i think the engine part seems to be the most difficult thing to do. Programming an engine like that + all the features of the game mechanics must be an enourmous piece of work to do.

 

And somehow i feel that we dont realy need anything new. We just need more people who see NWN as what it is. It´s the only game where all your adventures can become true if you realy want them to be alive. When you compare the limitations you have vs. the posibilities you have  NWN always wins. One has just to make a compromise or use work arounds for certain features you think that are important but not implemented who you imagine them but in the end i have never seen anything that was not possible with this game. To me NWN is realy worth more then i can express. It gave me so much freedom of the creativity i never imagined i can visualize '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

Hi Shadow 

 

You may of misunderstood my point 2 or I did not state it clearly enough.

 

There are any number of mechanisms now a days to control computer copy write hacking - not the least of which is Steam for example. However even then it may not be necessary. 

 

My general theory is the encryption and online authentication were not the solution. I think Bioware was somewhat pushed that direction by other considerations namely financial disputes with Atari ; not growth of the game.

 

Premium modules in a way was am early version of Itunes store; it came out in the mid 2000's. Don't use that example of what it could be given where tech is.

 

Frankly lack of translations is also a non issue under the business model I am describing.

 

If enough "German/Russian/Thai/Hindu" speaking 'fanboys' bore the development costs themselves, agreed to a small royalty per unit as reward, and leveraged the publisher purely  to interact with a specific Intellectual Property Holder for the formal approvals - then the premium module would come out.

 

I mean to say that even in NWN I believe there were sufficient fans to update TLK tables. If the demand is there - people would pay the $10.00 for their native translation ...

 

I am willing to bet that Drakensang (spelling?) content for such a game would induce a 1000 German modules for such a game with Multiplayer - DM Client - Toolset.... if I understand that it is the number one Paper RPG in Germany. 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

If someone would just do an engine that is so simple to mod with like nwn and has a roleplaying system as a template you can build on I would work for free for it. But no one has done it yet and i think the engine part seems to be the most difficult thing to do. Programming an engine like that + all the features of the game mechanics must be an enourmous piece of work to do.

 

And somehow i feel that we dont realy need anything new. We just need more people who see NWN as what it is. It´s the only game where all your adventures can become true if you realy want them to be alive. When you compare the limitations you have vs. the posibilities you have  NWN always wins. One has just to make a compromise or use work arounds for certain features you think that are important but not implemented who you imagine them but in the end i have never seen anything that was not possible with this game. To me NWN is realy worth more then i can express. It gave me so much freedom of the creativity i never imagined i can visualize '>

You are close to the truth... but not quite.  :cheers:

 

Perhaps the Aurora Engine could be bought for a song and dime from Bioware / EA. I opine that minor bitmap skinning refresh would do it !

 

I mean the Engine is still beautifully simple and powerful.

 

But NWN is too anchored in D&D 3.X. Too much WoC content vis a vis Spells / Classes / Levels. Too much Faerun. Too much DC's...

 

A "generic" medieval CRPG would be better if the Aurora Engine could be easily converted.

 

Stats based on D100 for example (X5 duhh) . STR, DEX, Mana, Health. Derived generic skills. Derived generic spells. Derived generic base classes. No penalties associated with cross classes ... and cross classes would open up prestige classes that build on the best of both.... 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

If someone would just do an engine that is so simple to mod with like nwn and has a roleplaying system as a template you can build on I would work for free for it. But no one has done it yet and i think the engine part seems to be the most difficult thing to do. Programming an engine like that + all the features of the game mechanics must be an enourmous piece of work to do.

 

And somehow i feel that we dont realy need anything new. We just need more people who see NWN as what it is. It´s the only game where all your adventures can become true if you realy want them to be alive. When you compare the limitations you have vs. the posibilities you have  NWN always wins. One has just to make a compromise or use work arounds for certain features you think that are important but not implemented who you imagine them but in the end i have never seen anything that was not possible with this game. To me NWN is realy worth more then i can express. It gave me so much freedom of the creativity i never imagined i can visualize '>

My friend from Czech Republic which was in 2004 workign with me on a PW is working on a new engine like this for a year already taking best from NWN1 and NWN2. The project is progression slowly because its a one man show, but the main problem is that even if he released it tomorrow as a CRPG engine that allows to converts NWN1 and NWN2 modules and grant additional features for builders/CC creators, would this be a successful? Seriously, I doubt about it. As an open source project its invisible to everyone not playing NWN1/2 and even then only peoples following a forums would learn about it. It would only fragmented the NWN community further. And we are fragmented a lot already because of the incompatibilities with NWN1 and NWN2 and because too many peoples are reiventing a wheel instead of working together. And how many ppls are playing NWN anymore? That number is lower and lower every day, despite that both these games are getting better and better every day thanks to modders like you and me. Hell diablo2 are still playing ten thousands every time in a day, and nwn? Maybe 1000 online in primetime.

 

Im very sad from this and feel that the work we are doing there is less and less worth the effort.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

Sadly I am sad for you and your friend in the Czech Republic. (No sarcasm intended).

 

Your intentions were good - method not so good.

 

Old engines, old content, no interest.

 

Now if you : 

 

1) Launched a Kickstarter campaign to fund and find other scripters/programmers to join you

 

1)b - approached EA / CDProjik (the Polish Team)/ Osian Studios to lease or learn how to lease the engine.

 

2) Approached an eminent author like Michael Moorcock - promised him full artistic say / veto - and the lions share of royalty's ....

 

3) and then promised to deliver a "long over due' game based on Stormbringer, Melonibone, and the Young Kingdoms......

 

...well 100 Million readers in 50 languages cant be wrong. You would find interest.

 

Especially with "kingdom updates" periodically. Pickyard, Elwhere, Oin an Yu.

 

How many fans would join to develop Tanelorn ?? Hawkmoon cross overs, etc

 

Actually it shocks me to this day that Bioware Edmonton Studio, Osian, Obsidian, DLA, CDProjik (the Polish team) never did this.

 

But Mr. Moorcock - "I believe" has a healthy skepticism of "big business".

 

Still the common advise is build for yourself first I guess when building a NWN module or persistent world... based on D&D 3.X rules etc. What you were really building is simply an extension of old content.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

 

 

....

 

Im not actually working on this with him, got actually meet with him at saturday when I want to suggest him exactly this. Agree absolutely.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

Yep.. it is about fresh content and quality writing.... and any game system that periodically adds content will maintain a healthy subscriber list.

 

Now Mr Moorcock (for example) may want proof your friend can actually write an adventure with quality.... '> 

 

Its not as easy as I say.

 

But I am an optimistic and naive Canadian / Canadien that believes simple honest business ideas will work. Especially if you are doing because you are passionate as opposed to "scam a quick million".

 

If scam a quick million is the objective  - "refer to reality TV" business model 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

About download counts i think we all have been caught in an illusionary fame trap. If you have 10000 downloads and you did a nude patch the author of it feels good because of the downloads. That was never my intention to feel good because of a number. It means nothing to me. A painter who paints pictures that he thinks makes money is not an artist but a guy who wants to make money. I can strip out his whole artistry point because it´s just about money. Many people walks from game to game and do nudeskins in order to have many downloads...

 

Well, nwn takes time to work with it. To write a complete module means precious time and the modern mindset is rush rush rush entertainment bum bang flash. Now we see that NWN had a hype that summoned people into creating modules... now it´s a very old game and people moved on or people just dont see that gem. So most of them were just hyped people influenced by the thought of my module will make many downloads maybe. I dont know and dont care about other peoples intention why they mod for NWN realy because this game is a hobby or passion alone. You also dont do swimming and playing soccer a day for 4 hours. You either do this or that!

 

NWN original content aged very bad and that may be one reason people dont think it´s the best engine to work with. They just see something not so good looking and turn away without a real interest. So my conclusion is there is no real interest at all!

 

Thats why i always do what I want to do!

 

EDIT:

and somehow i´m not only tired about hearing that you cant do that or this I also think it´s a very sad excuse of people. Because i know that you can do anything with it (i now work for almost over 8 years with nwn). But if it is about the ruleset only then... well. Dont fantasize about being able to realize your dreams at all in your lifetime in an interactive game. Illusions but not the will to challenge yourself dont have any value. An example is shadowmaps. You can do real shadow maps in NWN but youhave to design everything completely different and way more complex then by default. So it´s possible but yes it takes a lot of time, patience and willpower to do.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_zunath]

               

This is looking great. I would think that the community would really stand behind a project such as this. Have you tried taking it to Reddit to get some response? 

Just now seeing this - sorry about that!

 

 

I'm not that familiar with how Reddit works for projects like these - do you just find a game Reddit and make a post about the project?

 

I appreciate your interest '>