Why haven't anyone done a game like NWN since?

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               ... Don't get me started on this you all...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I mourn the opportunities missed, and the future prospects are bleak.

Thankfully, I still have NWN.

Amen.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I was just wondering like a week ago if you were still around, Webshaman.  Was doing your Melee Mage thing for a mod.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               *smiles*

Nice to see some old, familiar faces in the crowd.

Funny how that build always seems to follow me...thanks for the kind words.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Quite welcome, glad to see you're at least sort of back.

And the build follows you around because it's brilliant for people going "I'M GOING TO DO NO MAGIC SO CASTERS SUCK" or something.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               To answer the OP - because no present companies really care about their customers.  Everything is about satisfying their shareholders.  Bottom line - the quick buck.


As long as customers continue to be lambs led to the slaughter, there will never again be a game like NWN.

Sounds kind of harsh, I know, but after a decade of hope, one does tend to be a bit...jaded.

We can all be counted lucky to have been there as NWN came out, and we can count ourselves lucky that the game is still playable on today's platforms...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I'm not sure that's entirely true -- look at Starcraft II.

Its toolset is pretty much as powerful as NWN's (maybe more in some ways) -- but clearly it's fundamentally different in some ways (like how you can't have an online PW).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Looks like someone is taking a crack at this....
http://www.forbes.co...ext-gen-mmorpg/

http://www.forbes.co...-next-landmark/
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               CD Project Red's RedKit looks pretty amazing.  Maybe at some point they will add a multiplayer/co-op mode.  They seem pretty adament against it tho.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

I'm not sure that's entirely true -- look at Starcraft II.

Its toolset is pretty much as powerful as NWN's (maybe more in some ways) -- but clearly it's fundamentally different in some ways (like how you can't have an online PW).

I think that more than proves the point here, MM.  There is no way that Blizzard will give the SC2 toolset the ability to make one's own PW, because then they would have competition, right?  That, in turn, would draw away potential customers, and that is bad for business (RE: returns to the Shareholders, your REAL customers).

Think of it like this :  You have your real important resources (Shareholders) who wish a return for their investment - and you have your "resource pool" (those who buy and play your game) to "farm" that investment out of.

Regardless of how "nice" you are, you can't get around this equation.  Any deciscion is going to take this into account.

Bioware and NWN just happened to have happened right at the right time IMHO.  A rare concordance of a company big enough (enough native resources) combined with both desire and imagination (and not a little dash of courage) to do something no-one had done before.  Bioware was back then basically "free" to do as they chose to do, and had enough resources to do it good enough to sell.  At least, that is my take on things.

Unfortunately, it was not a big enough success story to out-do the WoW model.  So, that is what we are basically stuck with now.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I think that more than proves the point here, MM.  There is no way that Blizzard will give the SC2 toolset the ability to make one's own PW, because then they would have competition, right?

Not really.  Remember, SC2 is an RTS -- so they designed the engine itself around the idea of everyone being in a lobby, joining the game, no one new joins while the game is in progress, and everyone leaves at the end.  You can make persistent campaigns in SC2 and store data and make RPG like quests/abilities -- but the game itself isn't set up to be continuously hosted on one machine while others join and leave.  There was just no reason for Blizzard to make it that way.

WebShaman wrote...

Unfortunately, it was not a big enough success story to out-do the WoW model.  So, that is what we are basically stuck with now.

Yeah, unfortunately most people have never heard of NWN -- it's really a hidden gem.  I mean, hell, the OFFICIAL campaigns alone got it like 90% or something on Metacritic.  The problem is so many people don't realize all of the amazing custom campaigns which were better than the Bioware ones -- the other problem is that Bioware didn't have a good way to make money through supporting NWN so they had no incentive to update the engine and advertise it more long term.

The sad truth is most people think "official campaigns" when they think NWN and don't know anything about all of the custom campaigns and PWs -- and the official campaigns aren't what makes NWN amazing.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

The sad truth is most people think
"official campaigns" when they think NWN and don't know anything about
all of the custom campaigns and PWs -- and the official campaigns aren't
what makes NWN amazing.

I agree with this very much. People who visit game forums are different and many/most here are aware of fan-created modules and other content. But, the vast majority of game players don't spend time on the game's forum or only visit when they need technical help or if they are looking for a review of the base game. They play pretty much the game that the developers (or official partners) have released, even when there is fantastic fan-created content out there. In the official forum for another game, when discussing things we would like to see in a sequel, we asked the developers if they could please include some straightforward scripting hooks to do X, Y, and Z because it would enable so much custom content. Their response (although they were expanding the capabilities of the modding tools) was that, essentially, "We understand that you guys want to do more with the game and we're thrilled about it. But, our resource allocation has to account for the fact that the vast majority of players will never download a mod of any kind and something like 95%-99% of them don't consider the availability of custom content when buying the game." Sad, but true.

As an aside to the "Game developers put what the shareholders want over what the players want" comments, it's not really so surprising and it's not really sinister, IMO. If you run a bakery, how are you going to respond to requests that you start providing resources like bread-making machines that your customers can use to make their own bread? And, what if it is clear that some people will use those resources, in essence, to start giving away bread for free?

And, for the most part, many of the interests of the stockholders and the customers line up pretty well. The gamers want entertaining gaming experiences and the owners want a business where they can make some money by providing that experience. The model works with countless SP games and a few MMOs. It just turns out that we don't really know of a good business model by which a decent long-term profit can be made by supporting a gaming platform that allows gamers to run their own servers and provide their own content. Any model where the developer doesn't generate any revenue after the sale of the initial game is a model in which support, development, and marketing will fade after those initial sales fade.

We are lucky in that NWN came out at a time when it seemed likely that the availability of player-hosted MP games and PWs, and other fan-creted content seemed like it was going to help sell the SP game that Bioware was actually putting on shelves. A few years later, after the advent of several MMOs, many seemed convinced that a subscription model where fans provided very little direct value-added (aside from their presence) was the way to go for MP games.

And, frankly, I know that one of the epic truths of the online world is that almost any online experience that allows and encourages the dedication (and obsession) of the fan base to add to and improve the online content that everyone experiences is a major win. It's true on blogs that allow comments; it's true for retail sights that encourage customer reviews and ratings; it's true for SP games that encourage fan-made art and game scenarious; it's true of information sites from Wikipedia to IMDB; and it's clearly true of NWN. I really do wish that there was a way for a game developer to take a game like NWN and implement a business model that allowed fans to create content and host persistent worlds, but with a way for the developer to turn a profit on it so that there was an incentive for them to continue development, support, and marketing of the game.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Nice post MrZork.  I agree wholeheartedly.

MrZork wrote...

As an aside to the "Game developers put what the shareholders want over what the players want" comments, it's not really so surprising and it's not really sinister, IMO.

I didn't mean to imply (if one did get the impression) that such was surprising or sinister.  Rather, it is to be expected.  It is IMHO the biggest "stepping stone" in the way of another NWN style game.

I think that if there had been links from the game itself to CC, perhaps one could have gotten a large amount of customers involved - just something that I think Bioware overlooked.  These days, DLC "reminders" are often included ingame.

You go on to mention what I also consider true - that allowing for Players to add CC to any platform benefits it in the long run.  It adds to the platform.  It is just that this and what was mentioned before tends to conflict - and of course the Shareholders have priority.

IMHO it is why we will not see another NWN style game for a long, long time.  Perhaps never.  It would take a company that is not beholden to Shareholders, but with enough assets (RE: resources, time, money, etc) to make such a game, bring it to market, and support it.

I mean, even with the possibilities that one has these days (RE: the Online element, funding direct from your customers) - is it enough?  How many millions are we talking about here?  And developement time...are that amount of customers going to be willing to wait literally years (5+) for the game to come out?

At the moment, the only real "Realms" that I consider viable are D&D and Pathfinder.  So one would also have to get licences, which means money, and contracts, lawyers, etc.  And we have seen what types of problems can occur with such ala NWN, NWN2, and of course BG:EE.  So I don't really know if D&D is a viable contender at the moment due to the issues involved.  Once bitten (twice shy, right? 

So I guess a Pathfinder NWN style game would perhaps be viable, though again we have licence issues to secure.

And anyone trying to go the generic route is going to have the added weight of heavy advertising, for what good is making such a platform, if you have no eager players for it?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               Have you considered Talislanta (still no elves) as the setting? All versions are now free to download including the d20 version.

TR
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               Star Citizen is very promising if you're into space action + RP + moderately-sized (100 players), moddable private servers.

I'm sure if it takes off - and technically it already has with the $27mil kickstarter, there will be a Fantasy RPG equivalent. Companies may typically be too *ahem* conservative to take risks, but they're certainly eager to be me-toos once they see someone else make something that can fly.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Aelis Eine, 13 novembre 2013 - 12:13 .