painofdungeoneternal wrote...
the MAC version of NWN is rarer than hen's teeth, so this is truly pointless work.
I am not discounting a minority group, but I'm stating for a fact that even the MAC users do not need an app to access what NWC offers;
I did not hear that, i only heard that we mac users are rarer than hens teeth which makes it so we don't exist, I totally understand a website is capable of working for macs, but the hens teeth comment is very discounting of a significant segment - without the non windows people nwn would not be where it is today.
There is NO DISCOUNT here, you see, MAC, LINUX, WINDOWS, ANDROID, any device capable of accessing the WWW is INCLUDED, so please stop acting like I told MAC users they are not welcome, that is NOTHING AT ALL LIKE WHAT I STATED. Everyone has access if they can access the web, full access to all features of the NWC site.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I do not see a 'crowd' of programmers standing by and eager to create apps for it
There are a lot of programmers and developers for this very very old game - I was actually meeting completely new people when gamespy went down and not everyone finished something, most just had ideas, but there were probably 10-15 superstars who really had to be involved or we still would not have listings of PW's in so many different ways. There are also quite a few offering guidance, money, help and design work for the vault preservation project.
Face it, this is not the NWN community of 2004. MOST have left. Yes, we do get new people still, but the rate at which you find them are less than before during the hay-day of NWN. That crowd is GONE. What we have is a dedicated core and some new users arriving at a lesser pace. I won't pretend this is 2004, you may if you like, but I'm picking my fantasies more carefully. Inflow is a trickle compared to what it once was, likewise inflow of new ideas is slower not just for reduced numbers but because so much good innovation has been done already. Now, I'm dealing with NWC here, not NWN itself (which has more room for adaptation) NWC is a NWN matchmaking site and it does that just fine on the WWW right NOW.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
things not yet thought of
There in lies the future of the game itself, without innovation there is no point, but from my view of this game, the best is still ahead.
Again, with NWN there is greater room for innovation, but my topic here is NWC and that is a more finite set of innovations - if you have an idea, tell me and we'll consider coding it into the NWC we present on the WWW but I'm not interested in making some sub-sets of our data available to a fraction of the present audience. We, NWC, needs totall cross platform support not 'apps for iPhones'.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
most if not all the innovation has been done already.
That is a VERY negative point of view. Tends to be self fulfilling.
It is a FACT most of the innovation is done with NWC, it is a simple matchmaking site, and it does that just fine on all platforms which are WWW ready. DONE.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
A lot of the innovations are things you speak disparagingly about like the following statement.
We are really not interested in having these tools on our own systems and do not advocate it on others'. We intentionally choose not to use NWNx nor NWNcx and will continue to stand firm on that for reasons I won't go into here.
If YOU are comfortable putting a tool on your rig that works by INJECTION you go right ahead and do it. I do not need such a tool nor want it on MY system. IIRC a three or four character command issued in such a device can reformat your system hard drive without confirmation of intent. You may think no hacker will ever figure out how to invoke this software to do bad things, but I will not put the tool on my system to ever be tried by hackers. Safety is my concern. I don't feel the need to point a gun to my head as a 'fashion statement' either, I just don't need it.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I don't mind anyone prefering a website over in game tools, but then i also think it's just wrong to argue everyone should also share that point of view and that certain popular projects in the community should be ignored when the community which SHOULD be using a connection service ( ie PW's ) also is the same group which heavily uses things like NWNx and NWNCX ( and in fact developed them ).
Your system does what you want it to do, and I won't tell you how to code or design it, do as you please. I shall do likewise here. I do not need nor do I advocate the use of NWNc nor NWNcx for all the reasons I have stated already. NWC does what it does without any of that stuff and does it well on all WWW ready platforms.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Note that a lot of the innovation relates to how these tools remove prior barriers, ideas like bringing old things like various websites, moving the NWNx into single player ( NWNCX ) ie imagine a player going into a SP module and suddenly able to at the end see comparison scores or others who finished that SP module, a leaderboard just using mySQL on some server with a not very secure public port.
If all that is done in NWNcx *shrugs* I could not care. That does nothing to help folks find it who don't have NWNcx, I prefer web based solutions that search engines can read and index. EVERYONE uses search engines, a _significantly_ smaller percentage of people user NWNcx. Such data on the web would be much better in my humble opinion, but of very limited use otherwise. Again, I'm not up for making services available for some, I support ALL WWW ready users.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Also taking ideas you see commonly in silicon valley - which is all I'm stating, and describing how those are not needed.
Not all of the ideas from silly-con valley are needed on NWC. One must be selective in choosing such things based on merit, need and how hard it is to integrate them. I see no merit in adding any of these things you suggest to NWC, we just don't need it (see above).
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
To me what you site does - ie connections and events - is very closely inter-related to so many scheduling programs for events. Further your site should be promoting events. Having those events solely on your site, and not using RSS feeds, shared calendars ( so i see events in my personal calendar on my own system ), or not saying the many DM's who have chosen to use NWNx heavily on their worlds should not be able to announce their many events while they are sitting in game shouting via chat that they just decided to start an event which starts in 5 minutes.
And all devices I have access to are able to copy/paste. There is NO REASON why anyone using calendar apps or other personal tools cannot copy/paste the important info and make use of it on their own without me having to recode anything on NWC.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Further it is leaving many missed opportunities for not tweeting events when entered and a hour or so before the event is to take place, to not post such on facebook, to not try to broadcast such outside this community.
Twitter was not part of the original NWC and so not a part of PHASE ONE, maybe in phase three, maybe. Search engines, those reach the majority of NWN users; Twitter a sub set of that.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Still further is the idea, of publishing your content, which can be simply done in 30 minutes by setting a custom php code to pull upcoming events and list it as simple CSV data, well that would let me add those events to my app, and further make it so any events starting shortly could simply be clicked on by the player, then the player would via my app have any needed files downloaded and installed ( in a safe manner so they cannot conflict with other content ), and be launched into the chosen game - removing the work of typing in an ip address or finding it in the server list. ( not to add this player might have never gone to your site, and might mean instead of 4 players you have 5 players for a session you were planning )
Our content IS published on the WWW where the search engines read and index it. RSS was not part of the original NWC and therefore not part of PHASE ONE, it may be added in phase three, maybe. As it is, all our events ARE PRESENTLY CLICKABLE BY THE PLAYER and have more functionality than that, including allowing the player to book a seat at the event. I don't need ten methods to do that, I need ONE that is near universally accessable. This makes minimal work for me, minimal security issues and works just fine. You know, the WWW has been around a couple decades - it really does work and you should try it sometime.
Our intention is even to the point of clickable direct connect should the user desire. We do this on the WWW just fine.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Not to mention "one click" hosting, which lets a DM start a module, click a button inviting people with a message. ( which helps get more people running DM games and perhaps adds more PW's if it's made easier )
Please. One click works on NWC too, after you fill in the data about the game (which your description of panacea neglects above) one click does it, even puts it on the search engines. The difference is, our 'one click' is publishing it so the whole WWW can access it, while your 'one click' is publishing it so ONLY USERS OF YOUR NWNC OR NWNCX CAN ACCESS, or tools that tap that data. Again, you reach a sub set and we reach more via the WWW.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Both of which REQUIRE integration with other systems, you have to publish the server so people can find it, and this means using the "popular" means working with the system which "every" PW is now currently using. I think it should involve NWC and that means you have to be less closed. No It is things which REQUIRE an app to do, but this is done without your time, which "moves the mountain to the people instead of expecting them to come to the mountain."
Last time I checked ever PW I know of uses the WWW and a very very large number of them could be found in search engines with ease (using skills most WWW users already have) and WWW accessed interface too. I don't know that your system will ever be more 'popular' than say google or yahoo, but I wish you all the luck in the world on that! I think YOUR system works with less than 'every' PW currently, so I'm really not sure what your intended point is in the above paragraph. NWC is just fine as it is and designed very well to work with what I am sure are THE most popular systems on the WWW. You are mistaken if you think apps will work without my time/effort being put in to accomodate them (open as you say) and I don't have the time nor the reason to do that extra make-work. NWC works fine on the WWW (see all the above). The mountain moved by the search engines makes your mound look like the ant hill. I concentrate my efforts on the mountain, thank you.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
( and what i am stating involves trivial work on your part, could even post to a webform to allow adding a game from inside my app )
Ah, you do agree it takes my work up front - how is it that that did not make it into the prior paragraph?
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I am pretty sure you see no point to all this, that you prefer just a website since the things i am doing do involve running my software, but then this is for other people who have trouble with how the community expects things to be done now, and are used to console games which see anything harder than hitting play as hard. If what i do makes things faster or easier, it's going to be used by the community.
For the first time in this thread you are SPOT ON. I see no point in all this. If the console gamers are using computers, it would behoove them to learn how to use a computer. I already have taken gargantuan efforts to ensure than anyone with access to the WWW can use NWC and the search engines read it too. If all those buttons confuses, just go back to the console. NWN runs on computers, not consoles last I checked. So again, you cater to a sub sub set of NWN where I cater to the whole.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Yes i totally understand the concept of wanting all ideas provided to you, so you can review them, and pick and choose what you want, and get all the credit for making it work ( but then i think that is why you have more reasons for not doing things, than you do for doing things ) - but then that is why i like NWN, it's a game which is not dependent on what is done officially, but rather is full of innovation. The current NWN and NWN2 is full of things like horses, overland maps, spell hooking, database support, even the AI in NWN2 is using the AI the community developed in NWN1, all of which are ideas the owners of the game never thought of. In fact I sometimes think they wish we'd stop upgrading it as everything new they add is going to still have to compete with NWN - NWN2 for example is still competing with NWN1, NWO seems like it's doing a lot worse.
I always give credit where credit is due. You are false in your statement and you disparage me to assert I am such an ingrate.
While NWN has much room for innovation, NWC is a simple match making service and it works as is fully. None of the rest of the above paragraph applies to NWC and I wish you'd stay on the topic which is NWC.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Bioware to it's credit supported all of us doing our own thing, and the spirit of the community is being open and accepting of each other, supportive of whatever efforts regardless of if they are personally going to be used by us.
Of course this is all new ideas, innovation, and i guess this game is too old, the ideas probably have security or legal issues, but then most ideas tend to require such work - I probably should not even try to change the situation.
I am totally supportive of you doing what you please with YOUR NWN. I run NWC and I run it my way, with full support for all devices WWW ready. NWC does not need nor use NWNc nor NWNcx and NWC's lack of invovement in NWNc and NWNcx does nothing to stop you from developing those systems.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Of course I have far more optimism that there are lots of new ideas in this community which none of us have even thought of, than i am that you'd consider an idea you did not think of yourself. I am going to make this vision of mine happen, and to do it I am putting things on the new Vault, i am working to get the skywing API so it is working, and I'd like to also work with your site out of respect for what it was but I am doing my planned features with or without you.
But perhaps your sites niche needs some competition in order to make you understand what should be possible. ( sometimes it's hard for people to hear what is being posted and they have to be shown )
Again, do as you please. I have no need nor desire to integrate NWNc nor NWNcx with this NWC system. NONE.
First you want me to support your system now you talk of competing with NWC. OK. I think I and all the readers can clearly see where you are coming from; you'd like our data plus yours to be 'better' than NWC in some sense - I'm not helping you there. I have done what I intended to do, what NWC intended to do and that is make it all available on the web, an OPEN STANDARD.
I encourage you to do as you please, I am sure there are some NWNers out there who will not think twice about adding an MEMORY INJECTION capable tool to their computers and you are welcome to them. . . but do not ask me to work with NWNc nor NWNcx anymore as we understand you fully at this juncture and have no further desire to dialog with you on this topic.
NWC works with all web capable devices and systems, this is by design. We will keep to that design wisdom.
Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
