Author Topic: Neverwinter Nights will never die.  (Read 1259 times)

Legacy_OldTimeRadio

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Neverwinter Nights will never die.
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2013, 09:14:19 pm »


               

tzaeru wrote...

But Aurora was basically from scratch. Far as I know, it didn't use much in the way of a ready rendering engine, yet alone a more complex game engine.

The Aurora engine was basically the Omen graphics engine from MDK2 and parts of the Infinity rules engine smooshed together and heavily punched up, reworked as necessary.  The additional work was obviously considerable but it wasn't from scratch.  A large part of the base graphics system from MDK2 was used as the base for NWN's,  including the particle system and volumetric shadows.  I also believe the animation system as well.  Built on, expanded?  Definitely.  But not from scratch.  Googling "omen engine" AND "neverwinter" will yield lots more specifics.

Additionally, much of that work is assets; Music, scripts, quests, models, textures.

True, but this was an enormous project from a purely programming standpoint.  From the GamaSutra link in my previous message:

At its peak, the team numbered more than 75 people - with 22 programmers working on aspects as diverse as the game client, independent servers,  the Dungeon Master client, and the world creation tools (the BioWare Aurora Neverwinter Toolset).

Mmm, I can't say I disagree about Witcher assets or the amount of open-source material available otherwise.  It's not always easy to derive consistent-looking material for NWN from most of the 3D models floating around, though.  Ryzom is a notable exception (which is also free to use) but it is very difficult to extract and prep in my experience.  The last time I checked PlaneShift, while the game engine was open-source, the actual game content was not.  I'm not sure if the content is what you were speaking about, though.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_kamal_

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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2013, 02:24:59 am »


               

NWN_baba yaga wrote...
Why would a developer (or more a publsiher...lol) be interested in a game that is in the longrun not done for the money but for the creativity of individualls. The days of halflife 1, quake and nwn games alike are over imo period!

LittleBigPlanet is a major studio game that is all about user created content, so it can happen.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_tzaeru

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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2013, 05:05:49 am »


               

OldTimeRadio wrote...
The last time I checked PlaneShift, while the game engine was open-source, the actual game content was not.  I'm not sure if the content is what you were speaking about, though.


It was just to make a point that pretty sizeable game projects are done by community effort.'<img'>

And yes, the content isn't, which I believe is because they don't want the project to split.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_FunkySwerve

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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2013, 05:52:02 am »


               

OldTimeRadio wrote...
  BTW Funky, you might want to check out page 2 on that first link.  You guys at HG got a nice bump on page 2.


Thanks, I hadn't seen that before. '<img'>

Funky
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 12:39:44 am »


               I seriously believe that if I can single-handedly reproduce (and upgrade) the infinity engine from scratch (which I did marvelously in 2005), that a small group of like-minded people could EASILY reproduce aurora and expand upon it in a community sense
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Edge2177

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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2013, 06:24:39 am »


               I'm working on a brand new NWN server myself, so I entirely agree until another game medium comes that has the level of construction related to the toolset and allows players to design their own worlds the others just do not measure up.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2013, 01:35:46 pm »


               I've been playing with Foundry a bit and, although the potential is there, in its current state it just doesn't measure up to Aurora. You can't design custom exterior areas - the raw map anyway, and you're very limited with regard to characters. You can't really customize those either
So while the intent is clearly there its a disappointment.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2013, 02:52:16 pm »


               <adjusting...>

Just to be clear, in case anyone missed this, I am quite interested in developing new tools, server and client for nwn1 & 2.

I believe there are two things that make this game exceptional - the relative ease of use of the toolset and the fantastic community-produced content. The game engine and dated graphics are severely limiting and absolutely need to be redesigned. The decision to use a proprietary animation format (Granny 2) in nwn2 makes it extraordinarily difficult to produce quality content with community tools.

On the other hand, it's that community content that *needs* to be preserved, if not upgraded.

While I have back-burnered my attempts in this direction while we deal with the current urgent crisis, I do hope to pursue it in a staged, backward compatible manner.

Specifically, the tools I build or support will work with Bioware file formats and recreate similar gameplay. The exception to this is looking for a more open animation & skeleton format (perhaps ogre 3d or j3o) to replace the gr2 for nwn2 (a model converter for legacy content is a high priority).

If we make tools that support both legacy formats and newer formats, and the client to display them; if builders don't lose years of effort shifting to a new game platform, and *gain* new abilities, well... It will be like that moment when you hear the chime and see that your character just gained a level :-)

But it can't/won't be done monolithically, all at once. A tool here, a tool there. A toolset core and the tools converted to plugins. A server replacement with nwnx-like functionality native and extender plugin architecture. And the client. Drop dedicated SP completely and make SP games merely spawn a local host server.

I've been meandering in this direction for years. And, I think, we're actually getting pretty close.

<...the focus>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_kamal_

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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2013, 04:55:01 pm »


               

Pstemarie wrote...

I've been playing with Foundry a bit and, although the potential is there, in its current state it just doesn't measure up to Aurora. You can't design custom exterior areas - the raw map anyway, and you're very limited with regard to characters. You can't really customize those either
So while the intent is clearly there its a disappointment.

I was a Foundry beta tester. I made and published a 4 "module" "campaign" in two weeks from start to end while waiting on beta testers for my NWN2 work. Below you'll see why I put module and campaign in quotes.

None of these "modules" has more than a few hundred words of dialog in them. It took about two weeks to make the whole campaign. In NWN terms, the entire "campaign" would barely be a sidequest. Each "module"'s length and number of maps is typical of Foundry "modules". 3-4 maps, 15-20 minutes, a few hundred words of dialog. (Each of these is counted as a "module" by Cryptic, so when they talk about how many thousands of modules they have, keep that in mind.)

There are some longer modules that take 45-60 minutes. From the two I played of this length, these mostly mean
significant running around on large and conspicuously empty maps (the two authors did not have a good understanding of map content density, and fortunately I have a freebie horse as a Foundry beta author to get around quickly). Because the Foundry gives you a resource budget (and the budget was cut by around 80% during beta) you can not make a large map and have an appropriate detail density unless you are making a plains area where it would naturally be low, or using one of the pre- detailed prefab maps.

Finally, getting anyone to play your work requires serious pandering and "play my quest-whoring", but once you get plays people jump into the content whether it's good or not because it's popular so it shows up at the top of the Foundry quest lists. I didn't do any pandering or quest whoring on purpose as an experiment to see what the experience of the typical author would be.

As a Foundry beta author, my content was available day 1 of open beta so I had a big headstart on most content simply from a visibility standpoint of having content on day 1 before everyone could get in the Foundry. Since open beta started my first quest has been played less than 10 times, the fourth quest in my campaign has never been played. My entry into a Foundry beta contest, which meant it was listed in two different posts by Cryptic employees and on an official NWO publicity page, was played one time during the contest. The contest authors who did the "play my quest whoring" got a couple hundred and won the contest. Last time I looked, the contest winners had 10k-15k plays, my contest entry has less than 10 (The people that did play my contest entry have loved it and a few even sent me ingame mail about it.). One of the contest winners is a xp farming mission dressed up with extra lines of dialog and running around in between to hide it, they even sic the monsters on unkillable npcs for a while so the monsters don't react to you killing them.

The most popular Foundry quest is currently a beat-em-up xp with by dancing bikini girls at the end (not kidding, the author fills the room with 30-40 female npcs playing various dance animations and wearing only the minimum clothing Cryptic requires on the character models). While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's probably not the type of content a NWN author would want to make.

I released a campaign for NWN2 at the same time as my Foundry content. As "dead" as NWN 1/2 are, the NWN2 content has gotten roughly 2500x the playtime as my Foundry content. I spent about 20 hours making Foundry content and while it obviously took more time it certainly didn't take 2500x the time I spent on my Foundry content to make my NWN2 content.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par kamal_, 10 mai 2013 - 03:55 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_NWN_baba yaga

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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2013, 05:33:35 pm »


               When i read your post _kamal i´m happy that nwn is not known to many and it stays in the hands of a few... '<img'>.

I could not imagine having the top10 or even 100 modules on the vault that are about farming or bikini girls or whatever these idiots came up with just to see their name mentioned in a forum or a modsite...
how low can someone fall if he needs this attention?

I always thought myself F... it if someone doesnt likes my stuff. There you have the exact opposite of creativity thinking when peoples do stuff just for fame and are dependant on their feedback and praise lol!  But it´s everywhere the same... nude mods, sexy outfits or nasty storys are the most downloaded content whereever i look and search for some inspiration and whatelse can it be as these downloaders are mostly teens who never saw a real (you know) in life '<img'> and the floor beneath their chair must think... uh not again please - pfff hot Air ':wizard:'
               
               

               


                     Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 10 mai 2013 - 04:41 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2013, 10:13:31 pm »


               IMO, the Community, although the smallest its ever been, is probably the greatest its ever been. As Baba points out, all the teenies that made nude mods and porn adventures the top downloads for so many years are long gone. What's left is the cream of the crop and it shows in the quality of content that has been produced in the last few years.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 10 mai 2013 - 09:17 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_NWN_baba yaga

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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2013, 11:11:04 pm »


               Just to clear something up before i´m misunderstood. I like a few sexy clothings for females/ prostitutes in nwn too (because there it makes sense...) but the retextures of a retexture of a hairy lovespot is just not my thing.

What i really really like are the romantic (and porn) animations that are unique and perfectly executed also so i´m not against the adult stuff in general... heh i like gore that is somewhat realistic and sad/brutal storys and sex has a place in an adventure too '<img'>

The perfect balance of all these things i only know from the movie "the name of the rose" where everything was exactly how life was in a medieval time how i imagine it. Nothing added just to give the audience a boob or ripped up bodys...
               
               

               


                     Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 10 mai 2013 - 10:13 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_KlatchainCoffee

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« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2013, 11:22:12 pm »


               What Rolo Kipp (and a few others) said.

There is a niche filled by NWN and this game would only be replaced by something that does all the same things only better and is just as (if not more) user-friendly.

Since, as some people said, there is fat chance of something like that coming out any time soon, we'll be fiddling with this 'ancient' for some while yet. And probably having a good deal of fun in the process. :]
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2013, 12:30:11 am »


               I agree that sexy outfits and occasional nudity make sense. What I was referring to were modules where the main objective is to "get some". Its pretty sad when a piece of tail is worth more XP than a Balor. ':unsure:'
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 11 mai 2013 - 02:03 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Kalrhael

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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2013, 06:26:36 am »


               Honestly as much as I love nwn, a spiritual succesor needs to enter the new decade, I actually get somewhat depressed when I enter the game to the same manu screen that I witnessesd endlessly in my mid-teens, now being in my mid twenties the nostalgia is nice, but it's hard to have the nostalgia of the nostalgia, it just becomes depressing at some point. I want to create memories not be endlessly reminded of them... 

Seems terribly sad that so many stars need to align for something like this to come around again. I guess we could only be glad that one came around at ALL.  
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Kalrhael, 11 mai 2013 - 05:26 .