Author Topic: Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!  (Read 4279 times)

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4349
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2013, 03:16:05 pm »


               <scribbling...>

Just a little update from the little screen. My boss is back from Bali with a boat load of exotic materials and jewelry, so I won't be near a computer for a few days.

Great discussion here, thank you! :-)

@ Pain: #1 is the migration, yes :-) but I'd like to keep in mind incorporating metrics generation in the API.

@ MM: I was thinking MD, but you were on my mind :-P Glad you added more, though :-)

Current set up uses heirarchal categories and free form tags. Every project (and post, for that matter) has a Talk tab for comments and discussion. Each project has an arbitrary number of Related projects" links that may be added, to link to other projects on V1, V2, self-hosted files or wherever the author want to link (like these forums).
I'm keeping the current ten point vote in place until the migration is complete.
Awards & badges from V1 will be retained, though I haven't set them up yet.

Future plans are in flux, but are already heavily influenced by this discussion.
I'm going to at least try out a multi-level karma system in parallel with usage metrics and try to work some sort of API out with AME (when I get a chance to email Andarian ;-).

Let me ask one very focused Q next: what info should be blasted on the front page?
V1 floods the front page, IMO. I'd really like to simplify it and just make it the "news" page. Seriously thinking of setting up dashboards for users that they can customize, but for now: What should be on the front page?

<...nonsense, near enough>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tarot Redhand

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4165
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2013, 04:46:28 pm »


               One thing if at all possible, can you insist that any content mentioned on v2 is hosted on v2. You find it all over the web, broken links to great sounding stuff that is no longer where the link says it is. I for one would hope we can avoid that by having all content that has its own page hosted locally.

Will think about front page when I get chance.

TR
               
               

               
            

Legacy_FunkySwerve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2325
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2013, 12:30:05 am »


               

Tarot Redhand wrote...

One thing if at all possible, can you insist that any content mentioned on v2 is hosted on v2. You find it all over the web, broken links to great sounding stuff that is no longer where the link says it is. I for one would hope we can avoid that by having all content that has its own page hosted locally.

Will think about front page when I get chance.

TR

That may be asking a lot of someone who is paying for said hosting out-of-pocket. I empathize with your frustration over broken links, though.

Funky
               
               

               
            

Legacy_painofdungeoneternal

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2013, 01:41:10 am »


               To do what the vault did, requires either dedicated servers at colo facilities which we own, or using AWS ( amazon web services ) or the like. This is easily over $70 a month, and probably will end up being closer to $200, since you pay for both storage and how much bandwidth is used. Unless we have big contributors, who finance this sort of thing in perpetuity, it's not going to happen.

I think we can set up a system which prevents any broken links. But at the same time having everything on the VPP at once, there is no way a hosting provider would accept that without either capping the band width, kicking us off, or just having the server not be accessible due to people downloading multiple times.

There has to be a final authority copy which has everything, but at the same time there needs to be a wide distribution of where they are located, just to ensure the main copy does not get over loaded, with some files hosted on dropbox, box.com, nexus, and the like, yet also on the VPP systems just in case those go down. Basically we will need both people willing to set up mirrors, and also just willing to buy a large 2TB hard drive and keep a back up copy on their local system ( which we already have happening ). The system has to be such that only when the last community member gives up will it stop working.

If a link is broken, and all the links are redundant and in more than one place, you'd just have to download it from another place. ( and this should be something I can automate )
               
               

               
            

Legacy_FunkySwerve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2325
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2013, 02:45:40 am »


               

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

To do what the vault did, requires either dedicated servers at colo facilities which we own, or using AWS ( amazon web services ) or the like. This is easily over $70 a month, and probably will end up being closer to $200, since you pay for both storage and how much bandwidth is used. Unless we have big contributors, who finance this sort of thing in perpetuity, it's not going to happen.


If you have to resort to Amazon, it'll probably be more than that. HG ran on Amazon for a good while, and was coming in at $300/mo. We probably had more bandwidth than you would need, but a lot less storage.

Funky
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4349
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2013, 04:17:55 pm »


               <getting out...>

While Pain is going gangbusters on his open API (looking fantastic!), I'm stalled on the front end, mainly due to RL busy-ness :-P

Re the file-system: we'll be using Pain's backend, which is looking like a kind of quasi-torrent, multi-mirror thing. This means on my end coding a new file-field that uses the backend to upload and track files. It will look to the user the same as now; a file to download/upload, but it will not have the php upload limit and it will intelligently spread the traffic around.

Hopefully we can avoid commercial file-hosting completely. If not, I have the opportunity through my host (Dreamhost) to get early adopter pricing on cloud storage of .07 per gig storage/bandwidth. Which beats the pants off AWS for pricing, at least.

Of course, I don't *have* that money to spend, but I've received two donations so far (thank you!), so who knows ;-)

Ok, back to vintage carved mammoth ivory...

<...and pushing>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Melkior_King

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2013, 04:22:40 pm »


               Not having read every reply yet, please allow me to offer an opinion anyway.

The first step as I see it would be requiring a valid email address in order to register.  That is, after you register, you get sent an email and you have to follow some instructions in the email in order to complete registration before you can vote or upload or anything else important.

If that turns out to not be enough to stop vote-spammers, you could do much the same thing for each vote.  But my bet is that requiring a valid email in order to register would be enough in most cases.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4349
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2013, 04:53:00 pm »


               <reading his list...>

Validated email and captcha fields are in place for registering. I also use Mollom spam filtering on posts. I also capture IPs of posters and will maintain a black/white list.

<...and checking it twice>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tarot Redhand

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4165
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2013, 11:28:47 pm »


               @Rolo Kipp As I am on a mi-fi (ie it uses the mobile/cell phone network) my ip changes from time to time in a manner that I have no control over.

Re. Home page - Actually I think the old vault got it about right. Are you considering covering some of your costs with adverts? I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as it wasn't overbearingly big. Oh BTW any way of slowing the slide show down. In opera I only get about 3 seconds before it moves onto the next item. Yes I know I can make it pause by hovering the pointer over it but it is very distracting at the mo.

On the captcha thing did you see my earlier post where I mentioned an alternative? Also, there have been reports that organised gangs of hackers are employing third world people to get around this.

TR
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4349
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2013, 11:57:52 pm »


               <spicing the stew...>

@ TR: Even so, your provider is the one drawing your IP from their pool. The IP is not of great value, but is of use.

I'm not planning on ads.. well, except for my plea for donations (which I will find a better place for). Mostly, I didn't like the overload of lists on the right and the entire site-map of menus on the left. So I'm planning to simplify the frontpage considerably unless I get a bunch of people saying they want 5 different top 20 lists stacked like a totem-pole on the right and an even hundred tiny font menus on the left.

I *do* have to reduce the font size and work on the menus, but I am favoring a more modern site-map in the footer approach with (maybe) one NwN1 and one NwN2 list on the right.

I have several  things to massage on the slideshow, but I'll slow it down. 6 seconds, do you think?

The math captcha is an option, but I haven't had much spam get past the image captcha. Is there a lot of hatred for it? It should be turned off if you're logged on...

<...with pepper>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tarot Redhand

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4165
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2013, 12:17:53 am »


               I find I only hate image capcha when it's badly done (ie the numbers etc are so badly done that it takes 3+ tries to get it right). On the site map front, how about just having 2 buttons - 1 labelled NwN site map and the other Nwn2 site map - actually on the front page?

Re. the slide show, while six seconds sounds a lot better you should bear in mind that it is just possible that it's my stubborn use (('^_^')) of opera that could be the problem and not the code on the sites end.

TR
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Tarot Redhand, 24 avril 2013 - 11:18 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4349
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2013, 01:23:01 am »


               <flipping the...>

Nah, I have it set at 3 seconds now. wanted a crisper movement... probably a bit too crisp, though.

<...egg timer>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tarot Redhand

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4165
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2013, 12:59:52 pm »


               I recently pm'd olivier leroux with a link to this thread and he has replied to me. Due to time constraints he doesn't feel able to participate in the discussion but he did give me permission to quote what he wrote to me. So here it is with minor editing.

I superficially scanned the thread, but I don't have time and energy to read through all of it now, so I don't feel I'm in a position to join the discussion now and make a qualified statement there. Short thought: IMO all voting systems are messed up in some way and open for abuse or even just ruined by differing standards, and it's in the nature of the thing, as it's all about opinions. I still think they can be useful though. Even with all the abuse that happened on the Vault, the voting was one of several ways to help me find out which of the countless modules and CC content might be worth a look. Without any kind of rating, I'd have been overwhelmed by choice, and maybe given up after a few random, unlucky choices the quality of which didn't convince me.

The good thing about the Vault's current voting system is that it's not just numbers but numbers paired with comments, so you don't have to rely on the numbers, they're just a first indication. Regardless of whether a module scores high or low, I almost always click on the "view comments" button and scan through the accompanying statements to form an opinion. And I disregard those that are just a single line and not very informative, both cheering or booing. I only read the longer reviews and compare them with my own set of preferences.

I've also come to realize that it's probably harder to rank content you like than content you hated - that might be one reason why most votes nowadays are between 8 and 10, in quarter steps, so maybe it's recommendable to have more variety in the more or less positive spectrum, as opposed to equally dividing scores between shades of good and bad? Dunno.

PS: I also think it was a good thing that the Vault allowed for two different types of comments and separated the technical discussion, feedback etc. from the voting comments. I hope Vault 2.0 will keep it that way.


TR
               
               

               
            

Legacy_FunkySwerve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2325
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2013, 01:48:24 am »


               

Short thought: IMO all voting systems are messed up in some way and open for abuse or even just ruined by differing standards, and it's in the nature of the thing, as it's all about opinions.


This is demonstrably wrong. Throwing your hands up in the air and saying, hey, no matter what we do it'll have problems, is a false leveling. As an attorney who studied economics and law, I can assure you that there are better and worse ways of structuring systems of rules. If you decide that it doesn't matter, you're likely to wind up with one of the worse ways, since you're deliberaately ignoring the pros and cons.

This isn't terribly obvious on first blush, so I'll provide an example. Our system of rules governing contracts in America is one of our oldest, built on a history of problems and solutions going back well over 400 years (it relies heavily on English common-law). It has addressed questions that seem intractible or just unimportant repeatedly. Suppose two parties disagree on the meaning of an item in a contract, for example. Whose meaning should apply?

On the face of it, there is no right answer. If, however, you stop to consider that one of those two parties drafted the contract, things get a little clearer. We can consider the goals we want to achieve with our system of rules, and see how each choice effects outcomes - are they more, or less, in line with our goals? In the case of contract law, one of the foundational goals is to maximize pareto-efficient outcomes - in non-econspeak, to ensure that contracts where economic gains are to be had, tend to happen, and those which are inefficient, don't. Clearly written, unambiguous contracts help achieve that end, by ensuring that there is a meeting of the minds - that both parties have the same things in mind; put another way, they have both based their assessments of the contract's value to them accurately, and not on a misinterpretation of a term. Thus came about the rule that ambiguous contract terms are to be interpreted against the drafter of the contract - creating an incentive for those drafting contracts to be as clear as possible, rather than attempting to engage in trickery.

There absolutely are right and wrong ways to go about this, based on non-subjective standards. It is NOT simply 'all about opinion' - that's a very ignorant assesment (no offense intended, he likely hasn't spent any time studying the subject).

Funky
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting, Karma and Vaults - Oh my!
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2013, 03:42:39 am »


               

FunkySwerve wrote...

This is demonstrably wrong. Throwing your hands up in the air and saying, hey, no matter what we do it'll have problems, is a false leveling.


Not only that, but here's another example:

I imagine most of you have heard a saying that goes something like "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

So who's up for flipping a coin on whether we use a democracy or a dictatorship?  No one?  But they both have problems!

While anything we do will have problems, that doesn't mean all of the problems (and benefits) are equal.