Greetings + Build: "Divine Templar" (Immunity/Damage Reduction Tank + Crit DPS)

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Personally, I do not like or utilize Dev Crit, but Overwhelming Crit is fun to play. Enjoy seeing all those high dmg numerals that can appear for a decent weapon of choice.

Overwhelming Critical does like...10 more damage per crit.  It's not worth the feat investment by default.

On something I was worked on, I made it so having Overwhelming Critical added 20 Massive Criticals to the weapon you were using, which like triples its value.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Overwhelming Critical does like...10 more damage per crit.  It's not worth the feat investment by default.

The average per critical is 7 (x2 multiplier) to 17.5 (x5 WM scythe multiplier).  As a perk it does stack with massive critical.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I'm aware.

Which, when you look at the breakdown of the weapons, averages out to about 10 (x2 weapons do 7, x2 weapons with WM do 10.5, x3 weapons do 10.5, x3 weapons with WM do 14).  Could argue that it's closer to 8-9 but that's missing the point I was making, which is that it's terrible on its own.

And since I said I had it add 20 massive criticals which tripled its value (and mentioned a value of 10), that would imply it went from adding 10 crit damage to 30 crit damage, which would indicate it stacks.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               IMO, if you make a Dev Crit build, you should build for AB and DC to proc a Dev Crit - Great Cleave chain. Dual wielding Kukris doesn't give you extra chances to land Dev Crits during a Great Cleave chain, and it loses DC to get to 15 Dex so it's a waste unless we're talking about some kind of PvP-oriented HiPS build that relies on the starting flurry to kill.

I find that Bard 20/RDD 10/Any Fighter class 10 makes the most effective Dev Critters. 16 Starting Strength, all points into Strength and Great Strength VI. Compared to the OP's build it gets an effective +10 to Dev Crit DC. Assuming a +5 Weapon and max Strength from items on both characters, it's DC 43 vs DC 51 + 2 (Curse Song). Against a creature with 41 Fort, that's a 5% chance to proc instant death per crit vs. 55%. The Bard/RDD also gets more AC to boot.

For a 0 downtime heavy armor fighter with immunities and good mitigation I'd probably go with a Paladin 26/Sorc 4/RDD 10. The fire immunity covers most spells that allow Evasion and the Paralysis and Fear immunities cover most mind effects. It still gets good AC and the RDD stats help with the diluted stat spread. Of course it still has buffs but the only one you really need is Divine Favor. Aura of Glory + Eagle's only if you don't have the Cha from items and Greater Magic Weapon/Holy Sword only if you don't have a +5 weapon.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Aelis Eine wrote...

IMO, if you make a Dev Crit build, you should build for AB and DC to proc a Dev Crit - Great Cleave chain. Dual wielding Kukris doesn't give you extra chances to land Dev Crits during a Great Cleave chain, and it loses DC to get to 15 Dex so it's a waste unless we're talking about some kind of PvP-oriented HiPS build that relies on the starting flurry to kill.

If auto-fail on 1 is enabled, it gives more chances to fail.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

I'm aware.

Which, when you look at the breakdown of the weapons, averages out to about 10 (x2 weapons do 7, x2 weapons with WM do 10.5, x3 weapons do 10.5, x3 weapons with WM do 14).  Could argue that it's closer to 8-9 but that's missing the point I was making, which is that it's terrible on its own.

And since I said I had it add 20 massive criticals which tripled its value (and mentioned a value of 10), that would imply it went from adding 10 crit damage to 30 crit damage, which would indicate it stacks.

Correct, which for WMs makes +10.5 being at the low end for overwhelming criticals.  Compare to epic weapon specialization (gives +4 for all blows).  The WMs threat range is maxed at 11/20 (10-20) for x3 (upgraded x2), and maxed at 5/20 (16-20) for x4 or x5.  Given that a good investment in WM cranks up the AB significantly to allow a better chance for the huge (10-20) range than other builds would have trouble in making, the x4 comes slightly below EWS expectation while x3 and x5 are arguably higher.  Thus, for a strength based WM, overwhelming critical and EWS are of nigh equal value (except when it comes to crit immune, or the conflict with ki damage, in which case you would save your ki damage for only the crit immune).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Aelis Eine wrote...

IMO, if you make a Dev Crit build, you should build for AB and DC to proc a Dev Crit - Great Cleave chain. Dual wielding Kukris doesn't give you extra chances to land Dev Crits during a Great Cleave chain, and it loses DC to get to 15 Dex so it's a waste unless we're talking about some kind of PvP-oriented HiPS build that relies on the starting flurry to kill.

If auto-fail on 1 is enabled, it gives more chances to fail.

I specifically said "during a Great Cleave chain". Dual wielding does not allow an offhand attack on your Great Cleave. You only get 1 shot per mob, so it makes more sense to get DC as high as possible on that shot.

If we're talking about a non Great Cleave context, that means the thing you're trying to kill isn't trash, and if it isn't trash, chances are it shouldn't be able to get Dev Critted in the first place.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Aelis Eine wrote...

I specifically said "during a Great Cleave chain". Dual wielding does not allow an offhand attack on your Great Cleave. You only get 1 shot per mob, so it makes more sense to get DC as high as possible on that shot.

You also continued and said

"and it loses DC to get to 15 Dex so it's a waste unless we're talking
about some kind of PvP-oriented HiPS build that relies on the starting
flurry to kill."

You mentioned two scenarios:

1. Great Cleave chain
2. Some kind of HiPS PvP build

I brought up a third:

3, trying to provoke an autofail

Aelis Eine wrote...

If we're talking about a non Great Cleave context, that means the thing you're trying to kill isn't trash, and if it isn't trash, chances are it shouldn't be able to get Dev Critted in the first place.

Depends completely on the environment.

Also, in a higher magic environment, many of them don't balance 1H versus 2H well and dual-wielding winds up being far better damage.  Meaning that while your DC for Dev Crit might be 1-2 lower, you have far more overall damage.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

WhiZard wrote...

Thus, for a strength based WM, overwhelming critical and EWS are of nigh equal value (except when it comes to crit immune, or the conflict with ki damage, in which case you would save your ki damage for only the crit immune).

This all is very dependant on environment and build. If a dev is not an option for any reasons, it still depends on what is required, the more feats you need the less worth to take OCH without dev. Especially if the build itself, just like the one OP described has less feats than usual.

But strength has no influence on the OCH, its benefits are the same for dexterity build. What makes it more valuable is high crit range. EDIT: well since you need 23str anyway, every char using OCH will be likely STR based anyway '>

btw Aelis, I believe that you cant chain greater cleave with dev crit - it will not work correctly in most cases.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:14 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               Granted, straight up, dual wielding increases hits per round by ~24% after accounting for misses due to -2 AB. However, unless the character is a Ranger, dual Kukris is an investment of 4 feats. Therefore opportunity costs factor in. For example, possible damage loss due to lack of of Epic Weapon Spec, or AB and damage loss due to lower Strength to take 15 Dex will tip the scales in favor of single wielding.

Even with the minimum damage gap of 8 (6 from Spec, 1 from Strength, 1 from Scimitar average damage over Kukri), assuming characters are Hasted, weapons would need to grant more than +5 and +2d6 damage just for dual wielding to break even when hitting mobs 1 AC lower than the single wielder's best attack. And this is not counting the dual wielder's lower AB from lower Strength, or the halved Strength bonus from offhand attacks, which will raise the break even point even further.

In other words, unless we are talking about very very high damage on weapons, or very very low ACs on targets, a Strength-based character is usually better off trying to raise their damage through other means than dual wielding.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

btw Aelis, I believe that you cant chain greater cleave with dev crit - it will not work correctly in most cases.

I think it depends on the part of the flurry. I can't remember if it was the first hit or last hit. But anyone playing a Dev Crit character fighting mobs of low fort enemies should be familiar with the Dev Crit -> Great Cleave: Critical Hit -> Dev Crit -> Great Cleave: Critical Hit -> Dev Crit chain. Even at best though, that only has a 16.5% chance of happening per spawn of 3.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Aelis Eine, 01 décembre 2012 - 01:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WhiZard wrote...

Given that a good investment in WM cranks up the AB significantly to allow a better chance for the huge (10-20) range than other builds would have trouble in making, the x4 comes slightly below EWS expectation while x3 and x5 are arguably higher.  Thus, for a strength based WM, overwhelming critical and EWS are of nigh equal value

Er, no.  Among other things, you're forgetting that EWS damage is multiplied on a crit.

Let's look at the most extreme examples:

We'll look at a WM with a x3, x4, and x5 crit with 10-20, 16-20, and 16-20 respectively.  We'll also assume every single attack that threatens critical actually criticals just to skew it as much toward OC as possible.

1. OC for x3 crit is 10.5 extra damage per crit, 55% chance of critting, 5.775 extra damage per attack.  EWS is 45% chance of 4 damage, 55% chance of 12 damage, on average 8.4 extra damage per attack.  EWS is 45% better even in this extreme situation.

2. OC for x4 crit is 14 extra damage per crit, 25% chance of critting, 3.5 extra damage per attack.  EWS is 75% chance of 4 damage, 25% chance of 16 damage, on average 7 extra damage per attack.  EWS is 100% better.

3. OC for x5 crit is 17.5 extra damage per crit, 25% chance of critting, 4.375 extra damage per attack.  EWS is 75% chance of 4 damage, 25% chance of 16 damage, on average 7 extra damage per attack.  EWS is 60% better.

So even assuming the perfect situation for OC (WM with a scimitar/rapier/kukri and every attack that threatens critical actually crits), EWS is still 45% better than OC.

Now let's look at a more typical example, a fighter using a longsword.  He has 15-20 crit for x2 damage.

4. OC for x2 crit is 7 extra damage per crit, 30% chance of critting, 2.1 extra damage per attack.  EWS is 70% chance of 4 damage, 30% chance of 8 damage, on average 5.2 damage.  EWS is147% better.

Or how about a battleaxe/warhammer?

5. OC for x3 crit is 10.5 extra damage per crit, 15% chance of critting, 1.575 extra damage per attack.  EWS is 85% chance of 4 damage, 15% chance of 12 damage, on average 5.2 damage.  EWS is 230% better.

The best we were able to do is having EWS "only" 45% better than OC.

Furthermore, it's important to remember OC requires 4 feats total, and at high level Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave tend to be pretty worthless (anything weak enough to get Great Cleaved down will die very quickly with 5 attacks per round anyway).

Conclusion: OC is pretty terrible, even if everything is vulnerable to crits (I loathe crit immunity).

Aelis Eine wrote...

weapons would need to grant morethan +5 and +2d6 damage just for dual wielding to break even when hitting mobs 1 AC lower than the single wielder's best attack.

In other words, unless we are talking about very very high damage on weapons

That would be why I said higher magic environment, because I'm talking about stuff like weapons with 10 or greater enhancement and stuff like multiple damage types with 2d12 or better damage on each.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 01 décembre 2012 - 09:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
That would be why I said higher magic environment, because I'm talking about stuff like weapons with 10 or greater enhancement and stuff like multiple damage types with 2d12 or better damage on each.

I think I can count the number of places that do this magic level well on one hand... '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               +5 weapons with 2d6 damage would be medium magic.  I've heard a lot about "high magic worlds," and at a minimum I know of Higher Ground (but I've only played on 5 PWs total).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               ^ Well, cannot speak for the others, but you have convinced me that Overwhelming Crit is not worth the current investment. Perhaps another d6 per multiplier would useful in improving it; dunno, but as I am loathe to take Dev Crit anyway, I can see choosing other Feats.

Still, I find it much more enjoyable to see high dmg numbers than repeated Save vs Death during combat; more respect for the design, too.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
Er, no.  Among other things, you're forgetting that EWS damage is multiplied on a crit.

Facepalm.  Yes, I made a novice blunder.  So OC at best is between WS and EWS on those succeptible to crits.