At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?

[Legacy_henesua]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
UMD DC is dependant on total item cost, that is determined by the spell cost (higher CL higher cost) and charges on wand

this cost is therefore raised automatically if the wand will have higher CL but not so much to make a difference, with a rank of 25UMD you can use anything up to value of 600k which no craftin item exceeds by default - and if it would then it would be easy to make good profit from it btw

Shadooow is this hardcoded or can we script our own restrictions?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               right, it isnt hardcoded, all values are in skillvsitemcost.2da
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               What I mean was: Can we get at the script that makes the determination, or are we limited to adjusting values in the 2da?

Incidentally...

Elhanan wrote...

^ If the Caster lvl increases, could the UMD DC also be raised?

Yeah, thats what I am getting at. Good question there.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 26 novembre 2012 - 11:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

henesua wrote...

What I mean was: Can we get at the script that makes the determination, or are we limited to adjusting values in the 2da?

UMD DC is completely driven by this 2DA and the item cost

to change an crafted wand cost is practically only possible via iprp_spells which affect anything with Cast spell: # property. That however isn't a good solution because the cost also determines item level restriction - I assume this being ON as pretty standard, also you are running the risk of selling crafted items into shop to make big profit.

However, it would be easily possible to make a second UMD check just like when casting from scroll (I believe that extremely low cost of scrolls is reason for this feature - 10rank in UMD allowed to use all scrolls in nwn). x2_pc_umdcheck would be a script where this could be done. Probably best solution for this issue.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Thank you very much. I think that is just what I needed to know.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               As noted on the first page of this thread, it would also be easy to add
alignment and race restrictions to the crafted wands. That would
increase their UMD DCs without increasing their sale value. If
increasing the potential store sale value of wands is not a big concern,
then adding worthless properties like spell resistance to crafted wands
would increase their UMD DCs and would be an easy and level-scalable
scripting change.

henesua wrote...

MrZork wrote...
More broadly, I guess I'm not sure what issue with wand crafting isn't fixable.

I had thought that the problem wasn't wands under vanilla NWN but the ability to give wands a higher caster level than the lowest possible, and since this is such an advantage no matter what costs you impose to balance it out, unless you make crafting of wands impossible they will enter the game and mess everything up.

Both of those approaches above and the approach of making crafted wands undroppable could be made conditional for wands created above the minimum caster level. That is, it could be scripted so that the minimum power wands were sellable (perhaps with properties that increased UMD requirements) while higher level wands had even higher barriers to UMD use or simply could not be sold. Since ABCM includes an optional widget to allow the crafter to decrease his crafting level, he could make wands that more closely match his level for his own use and still make wimpy wands for use by others.

BTW, it's important to note that it's simply not the case that ABCM always creates more powerful wands than the default crafting system. ABCM simply allows crafting of wands that are closer to, but still not exceeding, the caster level. When a higher level item property is availble that's closer to the crafter's casting level, then the wand better matches the caster. But, there are many instances when crafting wand under ABCM will result in a less powerful wand than the same crafting under the default crafting system. For example, a level 3 mage will craft a level 15 Bull's Strength wand under the default system, but will craft a level 3 wand under ABCM. SImilarly, a level 7 cleric will craft a level 20 Hammer of the Gods wand under the default system, but a level 7 wand under ABCM.

henesua wrote...
I can see how in an enviornment with unlimited or nearly so resources that this is difficult to fix in a graceful way. I consider the "high magic" environments that Shadooow described to have for all intents an dpurposes unlimited resources because the time committment and risk to acquire gold and XP appears to be insignificant.

Outside of those situations however I don't see how introducing in game costs would fail to encourage wand crafting to those that use the wands.

So, is the idea to reduce UMD use of wands, but not discourage wand crafting? To allow UMD use of wands but make it harder? To allow UMD use of just the lowest level of crafted wand? All of those seem doable. Something else?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Mr. Zork... Those quotes of mine were merely an explanation about what some of the discussion had been about. I think we have the same view that this can be solved. No argument from me on that point. I agree. As to how to "solve" it, first to be brutally honest, I wonder if this is much ado about nothing, essentially searching for a solution and then later a problem to apply it to. But given that all the nay saying is rooted in experience, lets assume that ABCM does potentially give UDM focused characters an edge over others. I still think it could be solved in a myriad of ways, and one merely need to try at it until something works satisfactorily

As to goal, I would like to allow crafting, and for that crafting to favor use by the wizard. My solution for that is to tweak the economics and power dynamics of the situation to favor crafting your own or your group's own magic items rather than to except some material exchange for them. Gold should essentially be worth less than the item costs to create. Gold is only worth what it can buy... so that doesn't seem all that hard to pull off. But whatever... I'll give it a shot and if it fails work on a different solution.

Also I agree with your understanding of ABCM. I don't think many of its detractors have considered all implications of its use. The problem of higher level items being available for level 40 characters seems to be more of the concern. But I'll let the others speak to all that, as it isn't my experience. My goal is to focus players in the 5-15 level range.

With regards to ABCM, I've had it in game since Arnheim's beginning, but it hasn't gotten a ton of use due to more interest in the martial classes than the spell casters. And we haven't opened up to 24/7 play anyway which has skewed the results because players don't tend to craft when a DM is with 'em the whole time.

Despite this I did spend the time, a significant amount of time, configuring the spell properties in my module to work with it, and so understand fairly well how it functions and how a designer can modify it for their purposes. I don't see much evidence in this thread of a similar level of familiarity with the system.

Some interesting aspects: ABCM is only set up for 5 steps of magical power for each spell. Essentially you choose 5 different caster levels for a spell property on an item. For example I set up fireball to work at levels 5, 6, 7, 8, 10. Magic missile 1, 3, 5, 7, 9. A number of spells have easy choices like that with only 5 level options as the 5 levels are about all you need, but as to the others duration is often the biggest change and picking levels is actually fairly arbitrary. In retrospect a designer should probably load up the lower levels so as to favor an actual spell caster in this regard. I unfortunately didn't approach it with that in mind while first digging into it, but may the next time I feel like revisiting all that data entry.... Due to the level of work required to set this all up though I wonder how many have fully tested this system in the wild. Those are some folks I'd like to hear from.

Theory can sometimes be fun to discuss, but its ultimately pointless. In my experience all this talk is good for perspective, but thats about it. Once you actually work on your module, it becomes clear that a developer with a sense of direction can without much effort step beyond the pale of the typical NWN experience. And once you are out there the theories don't apply.

Anyway... I don't know why I just rambled on and on. Probably a waste of time. But I felt like it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MrZork wrote...

BTW, it's important to note that it's simply not the case that ABCM always creates more powerful wands than the default crafting system. ABCM simply allows crafting of wands that are closer to, but still not exceeding, the caster level. When a higher level item property is availble that's closer to the crafter's casting level, then the wand better matches the caster. But, there are many instances when crafting wand under ABCM will result in a less powerful wand than the same crafting under the default crafting system. For example, a level 3 mage will craft a level 15 Bull's Strength wand under the default system, but will craft a level 3 wand under ABCM. SImilarly, a level 7 cleric will craft a level 20 Hammer of the Gods wand under the default system, but a level 7 wand under ABCM.

Hmm thats something I havent considered. I guess I should, I was viewing this from high level perspective as what is really point of crafting with lvl 3 wizard if the number of charges is dependant on the CL? At lvl 20 nothing changes actually except few very usefull spells which are useless in vanilla but ABCM creates them in max CL so you can get +5GMW and 10dmg FW and +5barkskin

But aside of this, it was probably preconceived to claim it is imbalanced. If anyone would want to craft at lower levels all he gets will be as powerful as it should be, that is less than by default. On the other hand in LM it might completely discourage from crafting offensive spells since as I mentioned the CL also affect number of charges.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 27 novembre 2012 - 03:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

henesua wrote...

My solution for that is to tweak the economics and power dynamics of the situation to favor crafting your own or your group's own magic items rather than to except some material exchange for them. Gold should essentially be worth less than the item costs to create. Gold is only worth what it can buy... so that doesn't seem all that hard to pull off.

It is incredibly hard if not impossible to pull off, unless your world is set up so that gold is completely worthless and meaningless.

Assuming gold has some value, then if you make wands harder to craft...people will offer more gold.  If it's worth crafting in the first place, it's worth buying to use with UMD unless you have a system that prevents that from happening.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               It seems there is a lot of hubbub about wands, Yet no one has once mentioned the basic part of why the wands tend to get out of hand. Loot drops that wands can be made from. A wand, (default Bio) is made from a low end creature drop, the result: Just about everyone can make them, enchant them, sell them.
My solution:
Remove the creature drop, instead make wand crafting take multiple kills, gatherings, merchant visits, and gold.
Remove the default cast spell at wand to enchant, Instead require the use of a crafting table, a multi-layered conversation, where XP, Gold, and even a stat point or 2 is used to create the wand, in addition to the spell being cast. Make the creation not only long, but riddled with chances of failure, based on skill, feat, and stat ability points, Make failure be painful, losing hit points, (if a RP server) a limb, eye, hair, a nose etc.
Finally, remove the ability for merchants to buy crafted/enchanted wands. Lets face it, most stores in NWN are starting to feel a bit like Wal-mart. Everything under the sun, one low price.
With the above in place it doesn't mater if your players have a mule, or a craft only character, because eventually, after a certain number of created wands, they will be dead, or useless depending on what "costs" you put in place to create a single wand.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

SHOVA wrote...

It seems there is a lot of hubbub about wands, Yet no one has once mentioned the basic part of why the wands tend to get out of hand. Loot drops that wands can be made from. A wand, (default Bio) is made from a low end creature drop, the result: Just about everyone can make them, enchant them, sell them.
My solution:
Remove the creature drop, instead make wand crafting take multiple kills, gatherings, merchant visits, and gold.

I have done this in my HM settings also with blank scrolls and empty potion which however drop more often as wands tend to be more usefull due to the number of charges. What happened is only what MM refered to in post above. Crafted wands just get higher value for the UMD characters which they now are willing to pay more for them.

See even in HM, the wand of ii, negative energy protection (5immunities in one spell), freedom (3immunities in one spell), death ward, holy sword, bless weapon, invisibility purge, find traps, shadow conjuration: mage armor, mage armor, see invisibility and scroll of shadow shield, breach, flame weapon, or greater sanctuary (if allowed) are highly usefull even if you have items +7 available. And these defensive spells tend to be even more usefull in LM.

Just to clarify: the current state of craftin on my server is more or less balanced, the usefulness of the crafted items seems to me appropriate, what Im currently balancing is wands vs potions/scrolls as those with less charges should be more effective IMO.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:17 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

SHOVA wrote...
With the above in place it doesn't mater if your players have a mule, or a craft only character, because eventually, after a certain number of created wands, they will be dead, or useless depending on what "costs" you put in place to create a single wand.

Why go through all those limitations.  SetItemCursedFlag(TRUE); is all that is needed.  No selling, trading, or dropping without the aid of a DM.  If you really want to penalize magical crafting, you could also get rid of it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Just setting a crafted wand to cursed does not change how often they can be made, nor does it change who can give them away. However setting limits, that require more than right click make the wand, and left click cast spell at wand, in my opinion, is a better way to still have the crafting, without the thoughtless standard way.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

SHOVA wrote...

Just setting a crafted wand to cursed does not change how often they can be made, nor does it change who can give them away. However setting limits, that require more than right click make the wand, and left click cast spell at wand, in my opinion, is a better way to still have the crafting, without the thoughtless standard way.

It does change who can give them away.  As mentioned, cursed flag prevents trading, dropping, and selling. It also prevents moving into a different inventory (even if it is your own container).  What a DM would feasibly have is a widget to transfer this item when needed.  Thus, any effect on the market is completely controlled.

As far as a player making wands himself by paying the gold price cost for the wand (without any store markup) and an XP cost; this is a separate topic as it completely dismisses the UMD exploit, because all wands are limited for personal use.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               If the intent is to give casters more spells, why not just add Extra Spell Slot items?