Author Topic: At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?  (Read 2462 times)

Legacy_henesua

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2012, 05:16:43 pm »


               

WebShaman wrote...

First of all, in D&D the classes are not balanced, and are not supposed to be.  They are supposed to have "inherent" weaknesses so that a party is necessary to succeed.


I agree with this. And given your goals, OTR, to have ballanced team versus team play I think its all that matters. It would be interesting if you could design the module to favor a diverse array of abilities.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2012, 06:53:20 pm »


               

Frimbleglim wrote...

I disagree.  Multiclass Melee mages don't really work at low level.  I know this because I play them.  (and love playing them) but higher spell levels are always worth having, more so than Armour proficiency or damage reduction (at low level).  

Further Sorcerer beats wizard in my experience at least.  Flexibiltiy on the fly beats flexibility in preparation. And more of the good spells beats less but more varied spells.  Skill points are neither here nor there.  

Of course If you have a level 12 MMM build that can beat the druid with a dump level in cleric I'd love to see it.  In fact I eagerly await your reply.  '<img'>

actually, mages using melee weapons are pretty common and mostly only mages seen in low magic settings wich very restricted rest

its all about environment, in serious action environment, MMM isnt even playable - two attacks with no ab is really useless, but in the SP modules or this low magic PWs monsters usually dont have AC so high, haste is nonexistant and weapons are so crappy that gmw+flame weapon outshines them - in such environment this is possible.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 06 novembre 2012 - 06:54 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_OldTimeRadio

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2012, 12:50:56 pm »


               Thank you for the continued suggestions and explanations!  I appreciate the opinions, even those who pointed out that the quesion itsefl isn't answerable from some standpoints.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2012, 07:17:08 am »


               A major factor is how often you rest.  A spellcaster who has all spells available is drastically different from a spellcaster with 1/4 spells available.

A melee character, on the flip side, is far less limited.  A fighter never needs to rest if he has healing potions.

So if you have a fully rested and potentially buffed mage, that's drastically more powerful than one with some buffs gone and many spells depleted.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Frimbleglim

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2012, 07:56:47 am »


               In theory a mage never has to rest either if he has scrolls.  For some reason I never see scrolls used much though.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2012, 07:38:54 pm »


               A level 10 mage using a Fireball scroll casts it as a level 5 spell and with a much lower DC.  Scrolls also cannot be hasted.  That's why.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_NWN_baba yaga

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2012, 07:48:15 pm »


               hey guys, if you plan to do some online karnage let me know. I would love to meet you once in my lifetime ingame and kill you all:D So count me in for that... i never ever played online and thats the best thing i can imagine:)
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2012, 06:22:16 pm »


               

in other than a high magic environment, a Wizard wins, hands down


This still remains true, after all these years.  In a high magic environment, magic items overwhelm the advantages of a Wizard - the higher the magic level, the more the effect.

Fighters (re: melee types) tend to suffer from the |immunity to X| problem, really.  And all the M0bs doing damage, needing to be constantly healed.  Granted, in an environment where healing is plentiful (meaning unlimited, really), then this problem is for melee characters less.  

A Melee Mage (especially a MMM) of course makes use of melee, to smack their way through the m0bs to get to the Boss without depleting their spells, making rest a non-issue (which is why I created the MM in the first place - due to limited resting).

A MMM is much more flexible than any other character, being able to do just about everything (with the exception of the epic traps thing I mentioned) as long as they are not in a high magic environment.  They can meet any challenge and best it (with the exception of AMZs).  Countless years of experience in many different environments here - both off and online.

For the record, scroll use, potions use, and especially wand use has been incorporated into MMM play - depending on the environment, of course.  I know of one variant that was an extensive wand user in an environment where there was lots of dispelling opponents, for example.

Scrolls, wands, and potions (to a lesser extent) have their uses, especially for buffing and for those spells that really do not do damage based on levels (unless one is playing in an evironment where the D&D PnP rules for scrolls, wands, and potions are being used, for example).

Still, even a watered down wand of x can be useful for preserving spells if so desired.  I normally always have scrolls of damage soaking in my inventory, and of course scrolls with escape spells.

One never knows when one will need to retreat - which a Wizard is really good at when needed.

Multiclass Melee mages don't really work at low level. I know this because I play them. (and love playing them) but higher spell levels are always worth having, more so than Armour proficiency or damage reduction (at low level).

Further Sorcerer beats wizard in my experience at least. Flexibiltiy on the fly beats flexibility in preparation. And more of the good spells beats less but more varied spells. Skill points are neither here nor there.

Of course If you have a level 12 MMM build that can beat the druid with a dump level in cleric I'd love to see it. In fact I eagerly await your reply. '<img'>


Actually, I already did a thread on this on the old forums, and many contributed to it.  We basically did the break-downs for ALL levels, and did the comparisons mathmatically.  MMMs won out in every level breakdown, EXCEPT in high magic level environments.

Basically, your "low level" MMM has a nice damage soaking, regenerating Familiar, with a level of Cleric, 1 level higher Summons (at the same time, of course) AND all the protection/stat-boosting/damage soaking/offensive spellpower that the Wizard enjoys, with little to no sacrifices.  Proper assembly of your MMM is required, of course.

As for Sorcerer vs Wizard (MMM), well, we did this breakdown as well.  The Sorcerer just suffers too much in flexibility, really (especially in environments where there are more spells available as just the "normal" palette).  True, the Sorcerer is a plattform of mass destruction, but getting through the m0bs to get to the Boss, and preserving those spells is problematic, in the least.  Creating a MMM based on Sorc is more difficult in my experience.  Not saying it is impossible, nope, just saying that it is not as effective as using Wizard based on my experiences - YMMV.

To that, the Wizard has more skill points, and more feats - and is normally able to share spells, meaning that in a short time, the Wizard has just about all the spells available in that environment (dependingly, of course).

The Sorcerer does not enjoy these advantages.

Of course, after an environment is "known" - one can then tailor a Sorc to be more fitting (necessary spells learned to face the level of threat, etc).  Still suffers from less skills and feats, however.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2012, 06:51:14 pm »


               

WebShaman wrote...

Scrolls, wands, and potions (to a lesser extent) have their uses, especially for buffing and for those spells that really do not do damage based on levels (unless one is playing in an evironment where the D&D PnP rules for scrolls, wands, and potions are being used, for example).


I am curious about what you mean by D&D PnP rules for scrolls, wands and potions.

I am using The Krit's A Better Craft Magic, which applies the creator's caster level (roughly) to the spell stored in a crafted scroll, wand, or potion. And have not yet seen how this will affect play. Any feedback as to how this adjusts the balance of power would be greatly appreciated.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2012, 06:17:58 am »


               

henesua wrote...

I am curious about what you mean by D&D PnP rules for scrolls, wands and potions.

I am using The Krit's A Better Craft Magic, which applies the creator's caster level (roughly) to the spell stored in a crafted scroll, wand, or potion. And have not yet seen how this will affect play. Any feedback as to how this adjusts the balance of power would be greatly appreciated.

Well I wouldn't use this neither in my high magic environment from balance reasons. But thats a bit off topic here...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Aelis Eine

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2012, 08:57:12 am »


               

henesua wrote...

I am using The Krit's A Better Craft Magic, which applies the creator's caster level (roughly) to the spell stored in a crafted scroll, wand, or potion. And have not yet seen how this will affect play. Any feedback as to how this adjusts the balance of power would be greatly appreciated.


Sounds good for single player, but for multiplayer I wouldn't advise it.

Casters add value to a party through their spells, and that value is diminished when items start to become a good alternative. It's kind of like putting Improved Evasion on items - it detracts from the value of the Rogue/Monk/SD classes.

Random off-game anecdote: in Dungeons and Dragons Online, the Artificer could cast spells from items at the same caster level as their Artificer level. An Artificer with a stock of healing scrolls could be the party healer with no sacrifices made to their normal party functions.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2012, 10:45:59 am »


               Well, one has The Krit's system (which is a closer version to the PnP rules as the standard Bioware version), and there is the system included in the PRC (which when combined with the Complete Crafting Rules is pretty spot on PnP-wise).

Kind of strange that peeps would be against rule systems that bring the game closer to it's PnP roots, but whatever.

I do agree, however, with this sentiment

Aelis Eine said :

Casters add value to a party through their spells, and that value is diminished when items start to become a good alternative.


Definitely true, and when items start to diminish the roles of classes, one begins to get the "Monty Haul" effect...(very old D&D reference here).  Items should really never, ever dominate play.

Where there is a DM involved, things normally do not get out of hand (there are many ways to "control items" in a DM enforced environment).
               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2012, 02:36:28 pm »


               Hmmmm, I installed the Krit's system because I thought it would benefit casters in Arnheim, not other classes. Casters have one big disadvantage in Arnheim, resting is limited, and I have halved many spell durations relative to real time (spells that used to last 2 real minutes per level now last 1 minute/lvl). This means that casters will go through spells a little bit faster, AND after they use up their spells, they have to wait until they can rest and replenish.

My thinking was that prepping scrolls and a wand with commonly used spells would benefit the caster not other classes (the krit's system restricts item use to the class which created the item) by allowing them to cast more spells between rests. It should also provide a meaningful choice on an adventure between using up a resource that costs XP to create and retreating home to rest. I do need to calibrate the XP penalty to be just right to make it meaningful, but eventually should be able to.

WebShaman wrote...
Where there is a DM involved, things normally do not get out of hand (there are many ways to "control items" in a DM enforced environment).


This is actually why I am concerned. I am working on the module to move from DM managed sessions to a PW model.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par henesua, 23 novembre 2012 - 02:39 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2012, 03:01:26 pm »


               

WebShaman wrote...

Kind of strange that peeps would be against rule systems that bring the game closer to it's PnP roots, but whatever.


WebShaman wrote...

First of all, in D&D the classes are not balanced, and are not supposed to be.


And the whole point of this thread is about trying to get a spot where they are balanaced...hmm...I wonder...

henesua wrote...

My thinking was that prepping scrolls and a wand with commonly used spells would benefit the caster not other classes (the krit's system restricts item use to the class which created the item) by allowing them to cast more spells between rests.


Did you disable UMD or something?

Because all I'm hearing is "Cha-ching!" for UMD users that gives them a massive advantage.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:01 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_henesua

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At what level are the base classes closest in power to one another?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2012, 03:12:56 pm »


               

MagicalMaster wrote...

henesua wrote...

My thinking was that prepping scrolls and a wand with commonly used spells would benefit the caster not other classes (the krit's system restricts item use to the class which created the item) by allowing them to cast more spells between rests.


Did you disable UMD or something?

Because all I'm hearing is "Cha-ching!" for UMD users that gives them a massive advantage.


You are conflating an issue of game economy with one of game balance.

Enabling spell casters to make their own items does not mean that these items will be readily availble in stores for those invested in the UMD skill to cash in on. These are two separate issues that only overlap in a module with bad store design AND an inadequate XP cost for creating magic items.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par henesua, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:14 .