Any new combat/class system projects?

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               After 10 years of NWN, the flaws of the stock mechanics are starting to feel like an annoyance. Namely, the way the game is designed around checklist-ticking, especially at higher levels.

In many cases in NWN, a fight is pre-decided before it even starts, based on the build and equipment of a player and its opponent.

For example, player has HiPS, opponent doesn't have detection skills or True Seeing, it's pretty much an auto win for the player.

Another example, if a player has Dev Crit, opponent has hittable AC isn't crit immune and there is autofail on 1, win or loss will be decided in 1 minute at most, very frequently less.

It works the other way in PvE too. Suppose high level monsters have Dev Crit, PCs must either be crit immune or make sure the monster cannot lay a finger on them by stacking Epic Dodge, 50% conceal and high AC, otherwise Lady Luck just has to stop smiling on them once and they die.

And in NWN, the list of single abilities with the potential to decide an entire fight goes on almost endlessly - 4 minute holds, 3 minute fears, 720 damage triple IGMSes in a single Timestop, petrification, instant death that ignores death immunity, Knockdown spam etc.

As either a mod designer or a player, I am aware of these abilities and their counters, but it's just such a pain to either find or design modules that can appeal to a wide variety of players. If I try to make a challenge for Powergamer A who has a bunch of checkboxes ticked, Newbie B with significantly less checkboxes ticked and lower AB and AC will run into instant death left and right and quit out of fristration. On the other hand, if I design for Newbie B, Powergamer A blazes through all the content and quits of boredom within 3 days.

Coming back to NWN fresh from GW2, I feel that the gap between high and low end in GW2 is a lot narrower, and it doesn't feel like I have to jump through quite as many hoops as NWN when building a character.

I wonder if anyone else feels the same way and is doing something about it. I would love to see a server that starts on a clean slate - classes completely wiped and a new set of classes and spells designed to avoid the current flaws.

To start with, I would avoid giving immunities or very big AB and AC advantages to any class or race. Especially not permanent ones. Look at RDD, PM, WM and AA - they are popular classes because of these advantages, but it comes at the expense of other classes. Characters with high levels in Fighter or Rogue will have trouble in an environment designed for PM-level ACs or WM/AA-level ABs, and I'm not just talking about Action servers here - even in the Roleplay tab there are many servers like this.

I would also space out class abilities evenly so that taking say, 3 levels in a class would give roughly the same advantages as 3 levels in another class, unlike the current lopsided distribution where certain classes are front-loaded, others are back-loaded and some others have magic levels to stop at.

I know some servers currently do this, like Revenge of the Dead, but it's a zombie survival server and a completely low level experience, so that's not my cup of tea. I wonder if anyone else thinks the same way and/or is doing something though.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               D&D is an inherently imbalanced system - this is mostly due to the nature in which it was designed to be played.  It was originally conceived as a group of players with a DM running things.

Co-op play (players) against the environment (DM) in that sense, though the DM is not against the players, but instead weaves the entire story, mostly based with the players as the middle point.

D&D was not created as a PvP product.  Nor was it conceived as a MMO type of product, either, where one has radically different levels playing at the same time.

If you have ever had the opportunity to play in a closed DM session (PnP campaign style), you will see that there is absolutely no real issues here.

Trying to turn the D&D rules into a usable Server-style environment is a pita.  It takes a lot of work to get a balanced gameplay type of environment - and it normally starts to break down in Epic Levels.

I would suggest that you contact FunkySwerve from Higher Ground.  He and his team have done enormous amounts of work in this direction.  I believe Avlis 3 has as well (you might want to contact them).

Be aware that the work involved is huge.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               I found NWN working very well in PvE environment. My action PW is centered around lvl 40 and PvE looting, with legendary levels, +7AC gear and weaspon from +8 (slotted weapons like in diablo,) to +10 (unique weapons without slots)

The issues you described arent an issue for me really. I just dont give devast to every other creature. Some monsters have it and then players have still these choices:
- have AC greater than his AB+20 (AB reducing is good strategy to achieve this - neg energy burst, bigby interposing, prayer)
- kill him via ranged weapon from distance, this requires to somehow block his movement such as stacked web spell
- kill him via stacked offense AOE such as blade of barrier or creeping doom if not immuni
- disable him via mind-affecting spells if not immune
- knockdown him via bigby or IKD spam if not immune
- disarm him if possible
- get high saves to this can happen only by rolling 1 - if you go this route you need high DPS to get better chance

The possibilities are too many, in our environment it is rarely about luck. Its all about how is the module designed.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Aelis Eine wrote...

To start with, I would avoid giving immunities or very big AB and AC advantages to any class or race. Especially not permanent ones. Look at RDD, PM, WM and AA - they are popular classes because of these advantages, but it comes at the expense of other classes. Characters with high levels in Fighter or Rogue will have trouble in an environment designed for PM-level ACs or WM/AA-level ABs, and I'm not just talking about Action servers here - even in the Roleplay tab there are many servers like this.

I would also space out class abilities evenly so that taking say, 3 levels in a class would give roughly the same advantages as 3 levels in another class, unlike the current lopsided distribution where certain classes are front-loaded, others are back-loaded and some others have magic levels to stop at.

I've been working on two projects in regard to this sort of thing.  The problem is that I'm hesistant to put a ton more work into them and finish since I'm not sure how many people would even be interested in it.

The former project is more fleshed out, it was mainly minor tweaks to the game without massive revamps that still made important changes.  Removed crit immunity from PM, for example, and fire immunity from RDD.  AC from PM and RDD were halved.

I have about half a dozen different dungeons at max level ranging from solo content to 2-3 man dungeons to 4-5 man dungeons to 6-7 man dungeons.  If you or anyone you know would be interested in seeing what I did, let me know.

The latter project is a revamp of the combat system itself, especially for melee, and basically redesigns the classes.  I have a brief demo of the fighter ideas I had I could show, but that project would take a lot longer to complete.

Again, my main concern is how many people would even be interested in this sort of thing.

WebShaman wrote...

D&D was not created as a PvP product.  Nor was it conceived as a MMO type of product, either, where one has radically different levels playing at the same time.

I would suggest that you contact FunkySwerve from Higher Ground.  He and his team have done enormous amounts of work in this direction.  I believe Avlis 3 has as well (you might want to contact them).

Neither of those is what he was talking about.  He's talking about PvE with characters that are the same level.

And I wouldn't recommend Higher Ground.  If anything, it's worse than most other servers regarding this exact problems (gaps in character power, fights being decided before they started with that often being based on gear, some classes being worthless).  In many cases, my character might as well have gone afk for all the difference it would have made.

That said, if you like super powerful items and the idea of getting up to level 80, go for it...but my distaste for many of the problems of HG was what led me to start working on the second project.  And I don't think it's what you want in terms of balance.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:51 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               I've been working on a combat related project off and on again for awhile.  Like MagicalMaster, I'm wasn't sure how much interest there'd be.  It's a Linux nwnx plugin + Lua library tho, not a game balance thing.  Basically it allows you to script the melee/ranged combat roll with Lua among other things.

Some of the things I am working on.  Some of them are already doable by other means of course and not all of them are immenintly 'practical'.

- A simple interface for combat modifiers.  I.e. AB, AC, Damage Bonus, maximum Hitpoints bonuses/penalties can be easily modified by area, classes, feats, combat mode, race, creature size, skills, versus favored enemies, etc.
- Control of how combat rolls are calculated.  e,g. AB, AC, Damage, Crits etc.  Or you could remove them all together.  i.e. replace crit rolls with crit effects (e,g, x3 crit does knockdown not x3 damage)
.- Control over how effects stack.  eg. Could do Pathfinder style stacking.
- Control over effect maximums on a case by case basis. 
- Expanding effects to be capable of being VS subraces, dieties, individual targets.
- New combat modes and overriding old ones (that function identically to hardcoded ones)
- New special attacks and overriding old ones.
- Abstracting Sneak/Death attacks and Coup de Grace under the rubric of "Situational Attacks".Idea being making it a simple process to add new effects/combat modifications based on target and attacker state.
- Weapon attack bonus ability, damage bonus ability (always strength in the NWN engine), critical hit bonus damage (i.e. from overwhelming critical), critical hit range, critical hit multiplier, and iteration (i.e. amount a creatures base attack is decremented each attack) are all totaly modifiable on a creature-by-creature basis.

It's all still in an quite alpha state, lot of bugs to work out, but everything is beyond proof of concept.

If any one is interested, a slighty out of date repo is here: https://github.com/jd28/Solstice
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I found NWN working very well in PvE environment. My action PW is centered around lvl 40 and PvE looting, with legendary levels, +7AC gear and weaspon from +8 (slotted weapons like in diablo,) to +10 (unique weapons without slots)

The issues you described arent an issue for me really. I just dont give devast to every other creature. Some monsters have it and then players have still these choices:
- have AC greater than his AB+20 (AB reducing is good strategy to achieve this - neg energy burst, bigby interposing, prayer)
- kill him via ranged weapon from distance, this requires to somehow block his movement such as stacked web spell
- kill him via stacked offense AOE such as blade of barrier or creeping doom if not immuni
- disable him via mind-affecting spells if not immune
- knockdown him via bigby or IKD spam if not immune
- disarm him if possible
- get high saves to this can happen only by rolling 1 - if you go this route you need high DPS to get better chance

The possibilities are too many, in our environment it is rarely about luck. Its all about how is the module designed.

That's exactly what I'm talking about - too much of the game is based on building a character with as many instant win strategies and instant win blockers as possible. As long as a character was built with Tool X, it only has to make one good decision - use Tool X, and it wins, period. Also notable is that six out of the seven examples given in your list are available to casters, while only three out of seven are available to non-casters, which suggests an imbalance in the tools available to different classes, namely non-casters vs. casters.

Ideally, while building a character around one or more core strategies should be important, there should be a tactical factor involved as well. A player should have to make multiple good decisions to win, and multiple bad ones to lose, with luck playing a minimal role. Having the right tool could take them 1/3 or 1/5 closer to winning a fight, but it doesn't award a win outright.

In general I agree with most of what WebShaman says - that D&D works well enough with a DM, and in a PnP environment. PWs are an unintended byproduct of NWN, and in many ways they function like mini-MMOs, hence some adjustment is necessary to the base NWN system to make it work in a PW environment. Trouble is, I haven't seen any PWs so far with a satisfactory solution to this problem. Some have even made it worse, or at least more apparent.

Incidentally, I'm not looking at making an MMO style system per se, as that implies a focus on party play. With the diminishing population of NWN, I think soloability is now a big part of the multiplayer PW experience. So a CRPG/ARPG-style system might be might be a closer fit, i.e. with all classes being able to function as self-contained MMO Trinitys - having the potential to execute a core strategy and possess damage, mitigation and self-healing abilities without needing to multiclass.

Same with MM, I'm not sure if such a system will be popular in NWN. Judging from the precedent set by WoW - I don't play or like WoW, but I do look at its numbers to gauge trends so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. From what I gather, recently there was a highly controversial revision to talents (which are kind of like mini-feats in NWN terms) in lieu of its latest expansion, and poor player reception of such a radical change was one of the contributing factors towards the expansion's low user score of 4.2/10 on Metacritic.

In NWN, mods which radically reinvent the game have also not been received well, even PWs with decent production values like Elysia and Solar Odyssey. Only the very niche zombie survival genre seems to have gotten away with these changes. Successful mods tend to make more minor adjustments.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Aelis Eine wrote...

That's exactly what I'm talking about - too much of the game is based on building a character with as many instant win strategies and instant win blockers as possible.

Ideally, while building a character around one or more core strategies should be important, there should be a tactical factor involved as well. A player should have to make multiple good decisions to win, and multiple bad ones to lose, with luck playing a minimal role. Having the right tool could take them 1/3 or 1/5 closer to winning a fight, but it doesn't award a win outright.

Exactly!

P.S.  DEFINITELY don't try Higher Ground, then.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Incidentally, I'm not looking at making an MMO style system per se, as that implies a focus on party play. With the diminishing population of NWN, I think soloability is now a big part of the multiplayer PW experience. So a CRPG/ARPG-style system might be might be a closer fit, i.e. with all classes being able to function as self-contained MMO Trinitys - having the potential to execute a core strategy and possess damage, mitigation and self-healing abilities without needing to multiclass.

By default, the only thing you'd really need to change in the default rules is to add some self-healing to everyone to get close to this.  Or plan on people guzzling potions of Heal, I guess.

In my mod with all the dungeons, I gave every character 10 full heals per day as a feat.  In my other project, I was thinking of doing 5 heals plus one recharges every minute or something.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Same with MM, I'm not sure if such a system will be popular in NWN. Judging from the precedent set by WoW - I don't play or like WoW, but I do look at its numbers to gauge trends so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. From what I gather, recently there was a highly controversial revision to talents (which are kind of like mini-feats in NWN terms) in lieu of its latest expansion, and poor player reception of such a radical change was one of the contributing factors towards the expansion's low user score of 4.2/10 on Metacritic.

You are wrong '>

For at least three main reasons:

1. Look at the actual scores on Metacritic.  Most of the negative ones are zero.  That's an emotional knee-jerk reaction, some of it directed at a launch issue or two or the idea of pandas (because they're idiots who think it's Kung Fu Panda).  Or simply trolling.  There's 156 ratings of 8/10 or better and 226 negative ratings of which something like 80-90% are zeroes.

2. Metacritic user scores is a horrible way to judge anything for the reasons mentioned above.  And also the fact that it's such a tiny percentage of the population and not representative at all to boot (for example, I haven't given it a rating and I'd give it a 9/10).  In-game, I'm seeing more people online than I have in years.

3. Some idiots may not like the talents.  In the old system, you literally filled out a spreadsheet.  Someone calculated the optimal selection of talents and everyone just did it.  End of story.  No one besides the 0.01% of the game who did the calculations thought about it at all.  Now, everyone has to at least think somewhat.  You're giving six tiers of three (theoretically) equivalent choices and you have to decide which fits your playstyle the best.  In the last expansion, I had no choices to make (well, technically I had one and the choice was to take 4% less magical damage.  Woo-hoo).  In MoP, I have six, and two of them hugely impact my playstyle.  In short, anyone complaining that the talents were "dumbed down" are quite literally 180 degrees wrong.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:12 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Aelis Eine wrote...

That's exactly what I'm talking about - too much of the game is based on building a character with as many instant win strategies and instant win blockers as possible.

Havent understood from first post that this is what you dont like on NWN. I dont see whats wrong on this though. Nothing is autogained, the player must choose the right and build for the maximal effect. And it also depends on how builder think of this, usually I hear builders like you that wants the game be "fair" and difficult the same way for ocasional players and powergamers. That is not possible, trust me. Any step in the difficulty increase because of powergamers will only make the game better for them, the easiest is it, the less interesting it is for them. And you cannot really handle the fact that some players can play more than others and will repeat certain dungeons (as thats one of few things you can do in MMO-style of module) over and over again to find more items in loot etc.

I especially aim for very skilled PvE players that will make a special build for each dungeon just to be best in something. For me and my players, there is nothing wrong in default NWN environment. Its build/equip dependant indeed but its more about strategy and player skill (fast reactions, know what to do in unexpected situation) than about luck.

Also notable is that six out of the seven examples given in your list are available to casters, while only three out of seven are available to non-casters, which suggests an imbalance in the tools available to different classes, namely non-casters vs. casters.

partially correct, the casters has indeed much more choices, yet casters doesnt reach the *numbers* of the non-casters. On example: you can be cleric 32 fighter 6 monk 2 archer which has every spell he need but he lacks the firepower or you can be a fighter 8 bard 3 arcane archer 29 which has the firepower but lacks the self-healing/immunities. However the AA can still use any scrolls, potions, any wands and any other items grating the spell to be cast.

On my PW we have the default bio craft enabled so you can brew any potion (good for characters without UMD), craft any wand and scribe any scroll (except the limits on spell level of course). +there are items such as musical instrments that grants some extra spells (also vanilla items) and some custom items such as gloves with improved invisibility once per day. Also we have monsters dropping potions of full-healing quite frekvently, so you can have everything that cleric would have. Its not as practical to use wands/scrolls/potions as they are shorter and requires full round to be used, but you can do anything that caster can with the advantages you get for not being caster. (Of course I do realize that many classes doesnt get such big bonuses to outshine the cleric, but speaking of WM and AA they do, to a certain degree even ranger does with his FE bonuses)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               One addition to the Higher Grounds. I would actually say its pretty balanced. You can play any character and you ll be fine. Yet from my own personal perspective, such game lost the appeal for me. There is no difference what I play except the abilities the build have of course but every character I played was the same for me. I consider overbalanced modules to be uninteresting. Of course, its just my personal feeling. Do what you think is best for you - I know you didnt asked me for my opinion, yet I am around in NWN very long time both as player and builder (see my project in my signature) and I certainly learned a lot. It seems to me that some peoples just trying to reinvent the wheel there - there were peoples that already done this and found that it works/doesnt work. Would be nice if current builders took this in consideration.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Havent understood from first post that this is what you dont like on NWN. I dont see whats wrong on this though. Nothing is autogained, the player must choose the right and build for the maximal effect.

There's nothing "wrong" with it on a moral level or something.  But his point is he wants actual playing skill to matter more than simply coming in with the correct build/gear.  Or in many cases, even matter at all.  Lots of stuff in NWN where having the right build/specific items makes something pretty much an automatic win, but if you don't have them then it IS an automatic loss.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

And it also depends on how builder think of this, usually I hear builders like you that wants the game be "fair" and difficult the same way for ocasional players and powergamers. That is not possible, trust me. Any step in the difficulty increase because of powergamers will only make the game better for them, the easiest is it, the less interesting it is for them. And you cannot really handle the fact that some players can play more than others and will repeat certain dungeons (as thats one of few things you can do in MMO-style of module) over and over again to find more items in loot etc.

Except it's not a matter of making it more difficult because of powergamers.  The main thing is making the gap less.

Let's assume an occasional player and a powergamer each make a fighter-type.  Given equivalent quality gear, it is *easily* possible for the powergamer to have a character that is four times stronger (or more) because of better stat allocations, better feats/skills, and better gear selection.  I'm not even talking about playing skill yet.  Speaking of which...

I remember running across a 40 cleric with 14 strength.  She wanted to melee stuff and said she couldn't hit anything in my module.  For reference, the mobs have 60 AC, I believe, and a fighter built with the recommend button will have 54 AB.  So a 75%/50%/25%/5%/75% attack schedule.

When I see 40 cleric and 14 strength, I think...

25 BAB
5 Divine Favor
5 Divine Power
2 Battletide
1 Prayer
1 Bless
1 Aid
5 GMW
4 from strength (18 minimum with Divine Power, likely more)

So even with the cleric lacking strength gear and not having Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, and Epic Prowess, that's still 49 AB.  Potentially up to 57 AB, but let's assume worst-case.  Which is 50%/25%/5%/50%.  Not hugely impressive, but she should still land 1.3 hits a round.

I inquired more and found out the issue.  She wasn't running with buffs with Divine Power/Divine Favor/Battletide/Prayer.  So instead of 49 AB, she had 36.  Which would only hit on a 20.

That's the gap in playing skill you can have when you assume something like a cleric has standard buffs, even while assuming the character is built poorly and has chosen poor gear.

Fortunately or unfortunately, there's really only one solution to this problem...which is to standardize builds far more.  So that the difference between a fighter-type built by a new player and a fighter-type built by a veteran is like 50% better, not 300% better.  And this gap will still widen with gear selection and actual playing ability, of course.  But it means you have to reduce the options people get when building.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I especially aim for very skilled PvE players that will make a special build for each dungeon just to be best in something. For me and my players, there is nothing wrong in default NWN environment. Its build/equip dependant indeed but its more about strategy and player skill (fast reactions, know what to do in unexpected situation) than about luck.

The idea of making a special build for each dungeon rather than playing differently in each dungeon is exactly the concern here.  You and your players like that idea.  Great.  We...don't.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

One addition to the Higher Grounds. I would actually say its pretty balanced. You can play any character and you ll be fine.

I found the opposite to be true.  I'd often find myself in situations where I literally might as well have afked because I could do nothing.  I remember a dragon fight I did with a friend.  I had a pure fighter (which gets special bonuses there for extra damage per hit) using a Bastard Sword with the best one I could reasonably obtain for the level.  I literally could not even do 1 point of damage to many enemies.  My friend was playing an Arcane Archer.  We wound up using his unlimited Seeker Arrows to deal 5 points of damage (or something like that) to the boss every 3 seconds.  And wore the boss down over the course of 15 minutes doing nothing but standing there with me spamming healing potions and him spamming Seeker Arrow.

Nor was that dragon fight the only time we had to use that strategy.  And that's not even mentioning the required resists/saves/immunities/damage immunities.  Some people like that sort of play.  I don't.  

ShaDoOoW wrote...

It seems to me that some peoples just trying to reinvent the wheel there- there were peoples that already done this and found that it works/doesnt work. Would be nice if current builders took this in consideration.

Higher Ground *definitely* didn't reinvent the wheel in the manner we're talking about.  In fact, in many ways it made the problem worse (for what we consider to be a problem).

Side note: ShaDoOoW, I'd be curious to see what you (and potentially some of your friends) thought of my projects if you were interested.  Though it sounds like you wouldn't be '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:37 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Well, as a builder and having been on a number of Staffs on a number of PWs (as well as running my own) AND having played on a number of PWs, Mods, etc, I can say that I have never seen a "perfectly balanced for every possible player-type" environment.

Because it is simply not possible, and certainly not desireable!

Most PWs that I have played on (and built, etc) have varying difficulty type areas that are designed for different playing styles, from easy to insanely difficult (for those PGers looking for that "extra kick").

There was never a "one path to x" sort of thing, but rather multiple ways to "level and get lootz", being balanced according to what the main foes were.

And here we come to some of the main parts of D&D - a well-balanced group will do better than a solo artist, if the environment is made to cater to that group.

As for HG - well, you were what, two characters?  Perhaps you should have brought a party for that area.  I personally find it curious that you and your friend (Fighter and Archer) run into a place and you complain about things miserably.  Would also having a Cleric type and a Wizard type have helped things (buffs, etc)?

I would like to hear FunkySwerve's comments on that area, before I make any type of decision here.  The more I hear your negative comments towards HG, the more I begin to ponder what your actual motive here is.  HG is not WoW, and WoW is not D&D.

HG has a large playerbase, especially for a NWN PW.  I rather begin to suspect that you are somewhat biased here, but I am not sure as to how yet.  My experiences with HG are very different than what you are posting here (and when one looks through youtube at the different videos for bosses, etc, it seems to reinforce what I am posting here).

Most encounters in NWN go like this - first time encounter, perhaps the player(s) win (depends on the experience base of the players themselves, really).  Knowing when to RUN is an often overlooked ability.  I know from experience that often, we had to retreat, lick our wounds, then prepare appropriately for what we would be encountering in order to "rescue" those that had fallen (and were waiting for us to come and rez them).

After the players realize what is needed to defeat said area(s), normally it is a pushover to repeat (although occasionally things will happen).  Then it is on to the next.  Rinse, repeat, yadda yadda yadda.  So goes the PGer.  After everything has been experienced and reduced to a red smear, on to the next PW, and so on.

RPers are normally the ones who dwell in an environment, long after the PGers have come and gone.  They are not there for the challenge of the environment, but to RP in it.

HG is a PG PW.  One needs to be aware of this, and to play accordingly.  MM, you say you and another was basically doing the environment there.  Are you certain that the environment you and your friend was adventuring in was "balanced" for two adventurers?  I rather tend to believe that it wasn't.  Therefore, you were (purposefully, though perhaps you were not quite aware of this) intentionally increasing the challenge of the area, by reducing the number of adventurers AND abilities that you had available to defeat the area.

Now, I know this is a favored strategy of most PGers (being that I like doing it myself, Solo being the ultimate "high", so to speak - bragging rights and all that).  But sometimes, areas are actually created that are very difficult (if not impossible) to use such strategies in - if one can solo it, something is very wrong with the balance, or someone has discovered a "loophole", exploit, etc.

Case in point in the actual OC - it is possible to take care of one encounter (considered difficult) with a bow by positioning one correctly.  Then it is just a matter of having enough arrows.  A "loophole" or exploit that was not planned for by the devs.  

In the case of the player playing a 40th level cleric - it seems almost incredulous to me that someone can reach level 40 WITHOUT being aware of what their spells are for!  It boggles the mind.  I cannot begin to fathom someone complaining that they could not hit with their cleric without at least trying to use the resources available to change the outcome (or at least influence things).

I personally do not have any real sympathy for that player here.  It is my opinion that the environment should take into account standard use of resources to progress in.  Even the most ardent RPer anti-PG rabid **** is normally aware of what standard resources their character has, and will make use of them (perhaps for diffferent reasons, certainly, but still...)

To make things short - I do not think one should create environments with the ignorant in mind.  Perhaps beginning areas, etc - to get beginners used to the D&D system, etc.  But anything in Epic and above should be created by taking standard resources into account - and having special areas for those inclined to min/max things (ultra PGers, so to speak) is also something that I personally enjoy.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Side note: ShaDoOoW, I'd be curious to see what you (and potentially some of your friends) thought of my projects if you were interested.  Though it sounds like you wouldn't be '>

My note about re-inventing a wheel was meant for you and pope_leo actually.

It seems to me that you both trying to make something that was already tried to be done without taking these previous tryes in account. Ive seen lot of balance changes and speaking of HG or for example HoW/DeX it only make the game ridicuously fussy. There is so many changes that the new player coming here have no chance to orientate in the mess.

IMO the less changes the better, the minor changes the better.

PS. whatever it seems from my comments, I still consider HG to be great server, every action player should try it, there are lot of interesting things and moments in gameplay that I enjoyed when playing there. Its definitely good server. And when there is someone looking for action type of module I always recommend the HG.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               There will always be a gap between the casual and hardcore, but ideally, a game should be designed like chess - easy to pick up, but hard to master. The problem here is that designing based on instant wins and instant win counters creates a very high barrier to entry, because it requires casual players to be aware of the metagame - the multitude of ways by which they can instantly win or lose and how to prevent them. And that makes the game difficult to pick up. In chess, there is no instant win - it's a chain of events where a player slowly gets funnelled into a loss, so every step of the way they can analyze and learn what went wrong.

A bit of context placed in the quote tag (I wish there were spoiler tags here for those who want to skip walls of text)

On the server I am currently playing on - mid magic, no permahaste, no immunities, this problem is very apparent. Experienced players like me go in with a build like say, Monk/Cleric/DD and blaze through the content because we build for a wide array of ways to win and prevent insta-losing. Then I see less experienced players coming in with pure melee and they hit a brick wall because their build just doesn't work.

At around level 25 they will run into an area where mobs spawn in groups of three with instant death auras, and no scrolls means no death ward/shadow shield, so even with maxed fort, they have a 14% chance to die every spawn by rolling 1. There will be at least 5 spawns of 3 per map, so it's effectively a 50-50 chance for a non-cleric/mage melee character to die at that level range.

After that, at around level 28 the next challenge they will hit is mobs that spawn in groups of 3 and open with Implosion. Again, I have it easy - just drop Darkness on them or Silence on myself, problem solved. However, anyone who doesn't have Darkness or HiPS will die horribly.

Yet after that, at around level 32, they will run into a mob that spawns in groups of 3, spams IGMS and spawns minions on heartbeat that have True Seeing and immunity to Lv9 spells and spam ILMS. Again, I have it easy - Silence on myself, Turn Undead to bug the Lv9 immunity, stealth mode and go in eating a couple ILMS tops. Silence the 3 IGMS users along with the minions and then melee them down. An arcane caster can use Darkness to blind the IGMSers and Globe of invulnerability to block the ILMS minions, 

This is just one RP server, and it has the good fortune of being populated... for now. I've been to many other servers with similar design, i.e. certain builds will simply run into a brick wall at some point. Sometimes it's Rogues when they find everything level 28+ has True Seeing, Critical/Sneak Attack Immunity and very high ACs. Sometimes it's archers when they found out the shambling zombies in level 30-40 somehow move at the speed of high level Monks and have Deflect Arrows, Epic Dodge and 50% conceal, while arrows are so expensive that they cannot recoup the losses from the sheer number of wasted arrows they fire in high level areas.

I used to build, myself, and I would use Excel sheets, templates and very extensive testing to make sure that the major archetypal builds are challenged, and yet never find themselves feeling like they have run into an unwinnable situation.

Cases like these, I would fault the builder for not knowing the game well enough rather than the player for playing what might be a decent build in a downright unfriendly environment. But at the heart of the problem, I believe it's not bad players or bad builders, but a PnP-based system being used in a CRPG that makes it very easy for lopsided challenge levels to happen.

@ ShaDoOoW

Could you elaborate more on how every character felt the same to you except for abilities on HG? On one hand, you seem to advocate a standardization of options available to all characters via scrolls, potions, wands, items that cast spells etc, but on the other you don't seem to be in favor of how HG standardizes their classes, so I'll have to understand your position better before I can reply to that point.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Aelis Eine, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               The quoted text is great example of terrible designed environment. I wont pretend that in the PW I am admin of this doesnt happen. It will we also have mobs that spams banshee - but at the same time we have a many other choices where to go on the same level. Yet its wrong, a remnant from the previous builders - im just new admin, I didnt created this module.

As WebShaman said, the DnD wasn't created for MMO use. The insta-kill spells are fine in the default PnP gameplay as its rare and DM will make sure that the DC is appropriate to the PCs level. In NWN you create a dungeon, place dozens spawns of the monster that has implosion multiple times and then you expect what? This is absolutely wrong. Its totally fine to make a boss at the end of the dungeon that will have implosion, but each mob in that dungeon thats just stupid.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Could you elaborate more on how every character felt the same to you except for abilities on HG? On one hand, you seem to advocate a standardization of options available to all characters via scrolls, potions, wands, items that cast spells etc, but on the other you don't seem to be in favor of how HG standardizes their classes, so I'll have to understand your position better before I can reply to that point.

I wont lie that I played all character on HG. I didnt even tried the casters as I didnt want to read thousands of spell changes related to them - every spell is modified on HG and I hadnt mood to find this out on my own. Thus I played fighter types, pure fighter, fighter/DD, bard/DD, bard/RDD/BG.

The whole server is about getting all immunities which are found on items. Each ability is separeted here so mind-affecting immunity will not protect you against daze, fear, stun, paralyse - Im unsure if the mindaffecting immunity even exists there. (good idea)

And these items are spawning always on the same place as the loot is constant (+- ofc there are chests that contain more than one items, kind of pseudo-random, but mostly constant). (dont like this at all)

So whatever I picked, it was always about get as much AC possible in order NPCs couldnt hit you without rolling 20. Get as much immunities as possible, or at least those that are spammed in that dungeon (for beholders player needed all of them). Get at least 10 scrolls of resurrection just for case your teammate dies, and get potions for each ability, barkskin, and fullheals. All this from very early stages of game, later you just bought better potions and better items. The special abilities of the classes just like bard song just allowed to go on place one level higher than intented, nothing more. I found the gameplay to be boring grinding after I finished the module main quest about crown of immortality.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
My note about re-inventing a wheel was meant for you and pope_leo actually.

It seems to me that you both trying to make something that was already tried to be done without taking these previous tryes in account. Ive seen lot of balance changes and speaking of HG or for example HoW/DeX it only make the game ridicuously fussy. There is so many changes that the new player coming here have no chance to orientate in the mess.

IMO the less changes the better, the minor changes the better.

In all fairness that particular project of mine is more like reinventing rubber, it's a framework for replacing the combat engine with whatever rules you want.  I've been running a reasonably successful server for a few years now, so I've learned first hand the wisdom of what you're saying.  That said, I disagree wildly about changes.  I really don't understand why anyone would want less gameplay variety among action PWs.  It's already the same tilesets, same monster models, same etc.  Most servers aren't going to get many players at this point regardless of what they do.

@MagicalMaster
I like your idea about the innate health, especially if it's largely in lieu of potions.  It reminds me of the change from the Grass [1] in Demon's Souls to Estus Flasks [2] in Dark Souls.  It added a nice new dimension to the game, IMO.

For those unfamiliar with the Souls games:
[1] Basically infinitely consumable heal potions.  Only limit to how many you can have is how much currency you have to spend on them.
[2] Essentially innate potions that are upgradedable, refillble on rest to a maximum of 20 per rest at the highest levels.  There are other ways to heal but at a greater cost/risk to the player.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:09 .