The munchkin builds page

[Legacy_martixy]

                Can any of you guys point me to that one page from way back that containt all the munchkin builds(Epic chars, etc...).

I think it got lost somewhere in the wide Internetz...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bard Simpson]

               Let's see, there is an archive of the BioBoard Epic Character Builders Guild hosted by the World of Greyhawk: home.comcast.net/~worldofgreyhawk/builds/

There is the new NWN Epic Character Builders Guild: nwnecbguild.44.forumer.com/index.php

Specifically, on the new site, there is the BioWare Legacy Builds page: nwnecbguild.44.forumer.com/bioware-legacy-builds-f60574.html

I expect the last link is what you want, but they're all useful. Happy building!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lightfoot8]

               The old one died with all nwn1 stuff on bioware. Kail did start a new site.

New Epic Character Builders Guild Forums
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lightfoot8, 29 août 2012 - 11:20 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_martixy]

               Yes, jackpot, this one was it - nwnecbguild.44.forumer.com/bioware-legacy-builds-f60574.html
I recognize some of the old builds '>

Glad to see nothing ever truly gets lost in the internetz '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Why are they being labeled "munchkin" builds? o_0

I feel slightly offended here.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills", and grab the most loot, no matter how detrimental their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, or the other players' fun. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers.

Munchkins are often accused of twinking or roll-playing, a pun on 'role' that notes how munchkins are often more concerned with the numbers and die rolls than with the roles that they play.

A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 août 2012 - 04:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               Not to be confused with zombie children, munch-skins.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               The creation of builds (for the Epic Builds Guild, yadda yadda yadda) is not a case of "munchkin-ness" IMHO - rather, it is part of the game itself.  It is much like building - you take the available things and build with it.  In the case of Character builds, the things are stats, feats, abilities, races, etc.

One will note that most of the builds have a "class explanation text" that sort of RP-like explains it.

It, in and of itself, has nothing to do with "amasing the greatest power, score the most "kills", and/or grab the most loot.  Instead, it is mostly just a pasttime for most who have made those builds.

If the Dwarflord was still active, I am sure he could explain it much better.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               ^ Agreed; the NWN and Epic Builders have many story based designs available if one wishes to follow a theme. Simple use can confirm this rather quickly.

And min/max designs by themselves do not always remove thematic needs. Part of the challenge of some builders is to design the most effective character for a specific setting, even if there are actually better builds available.

Labels like this restrict far too much, and are seen far too often. IMO.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

The creation of builds (for the Epic Builds Guild, yadda yadda yadda) is not a case of "munchkin-ness" IMHO - rather, it is part of the game itself.  It is much like building - you take the available things and build with it.  In the case of Character builds, the things are stats, feats, abilities, races, etc.

Maybe you don't remember, but the Bioware official page for some level 40 character builds *specifically* called it munchkinism and explained the concept.  Sadly I think the page is gone now, but it was Bioware who used the term originally.

WebShaman wrote...

One will note that most of the builds have a "class explanation text" that sort of RP-like explains it.

It, in and of itself, has nothing to do with "amasing the greatest power, score the most "kills", and/or grab the most loot.  Instead, it is mostly just a pasttime for most who have made those builds.

And the RP difference between a Fighter 12/Rogue 3/Assassin 25 and a Fighter 10/Rogue 1/Assassin 29 and a Fighter 14/Rogue 5/Assassin 21 is?...

Nothing.  The difference in the levels per class, stats, and feats is for the purpose of maximizing power in 99% of cases.  Which is called optimization in WoW, but powergaming/munchkinism in NWN.

Then you have builds like 1 Paladin/1 Monk/38 Sorcerer which *really* embrace munchkinism completely.  And please don't say there's an RP explanation for that, you have *never* thought "Hmm, I'd like a paladin who also trained as a monk and a sorcerer" and come up with 1/1/38.

Elhanan wrote...

^ Agreed; the NWN and Epic Builders have many story based designs available if one wishes to follow a theme. Simple use can confirm this rather quickly.

They might have "many," but the vast majority have nothing to do with story.

Elhanan wrote...

And min/max designs by themselves do not always remove thematic needs. Part of the challenge of some builders is to design the most effective character for a specific setting, even if there are actually better builds available.

It's still munchkinism to adjust the Exalted Sorceress for a specific setting.

Elhanan wrote...

Labels like this restrict far too much, and are seen far too often. IMO.

Like I said, blame Bioware.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Maybe you don't remember, but the Bioware official page for some level 40 character builds *specifically* called it munchkinism and explained the concept.  Sadly I think the page is gone now, but it was Bioware who used the term originally.

And the RP difference between a Fighter 12/Rogue 3/Assassin 25 and a Fighter 10/Rogue 1/Assassin 29 and a Fighter 14/Rogue 5/Assassin 21 is?...

Nothing.  The difference in the levels per class, stats, and feats is for the purpose of maximizing power in 99% of cases.  Which is called optimization in WoW, but powergaming/munchkinism in NWN.

Then you have builds like 1 Paladin/1 Monk/38 Sorcerer which *really* embrace munchkinism completely.  And please don't say there's an RP explanation for that, you have *never* thought "Hmm, I'd like a paladin who also trained as a monk and a sorcerer" and come up with 1/1/38.

They might have "many," but the vast majority have nothing to do with story.

It's still munchkinism to adjust the Exalted Sorceress for a specific setting.

Like I said, blame Bioware.

Nope; tend to blame the one that is misusing the terms. Whether or not Bioware used this term correctly originally does not pardon those using it in error it now.

Strawmen designs may be offered all day, but any design can have an RP 'label' attached, as it is imaginary in the first place. And a PG design does not always invalidate a RP purpose; simply tries to make the best of it as a rule.

Also, imaginary stats such as 99% mean little to nothing; stats are the third lie. All I require is a single exception to invalidate the misnomer, and there are many. While there may be 'overpowered' designs seen in those files, this does not make the file itself overpowered.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Nope; tend to blame the one that is misusing the terms. Whether or not Bioware used this term correctly originally does not pardon those using it in error it now.

It isn't being used in error, though.  Remember the whole

"A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities."

part?  The vast majority of builds in the ECB forum are designed to focus on increasing the statistical power of the characters and care nothing about personalities.  Even the ones who care about personalities are attaching their own idea to the build, which means other people will and do come in, take the mechanical build, and trash the personality because they don't care about it.

Elhanan wrote...

Also, imaginary stats such as 99% mean little to nothing; stats are the third lie. All I require is a single exception to invalidate the misnomer, and there are many. While there may be 'overpowered' designs seen in those files, this does not make the file itself overpowered.

Okay, go ahead and glance at the first 100 builds listed in the ECB guild.  Tell me how many of those aren't focused on squeezing out every last inch of character power.  If there's more than, say, five, I'd be extraordinarily shocked.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

It isn't being used in error, though.  Remember the whole

"A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities."

part?  The vast majority of builds in the ECB forum are designed to focus on increasing the statistical power of the characters and care nothing about personalities.  Even the ones who care about personalities are attaching their own idea to the build, which means other people will and do come in, take the mechanical build, and trash the personality because they don't care about it.

Okay, go ahead and glance at the first 100 builds listed in the ECB guild.  Tell me how many of those aren't focused on squeezing out every last inch of character power.  If there's more than, say, five, I'd be extraordinarily shocked.

Sorry, but to drop a name with respect, almost anything seen by grizzled_dwarflord may not be optimized for power, but for playability.

Using the Ftr/ Rog/ Assassin mentioned earlier yields a result of his of a design that strives towards playing a more fulfilling Assassin PC, but is not geared towards PvP much at all. It has no Dev or Overwhelming Crit, uses a mace when other weapons may be better, and is dependant on UMD to shore up a weakness. Yet, this build is fully viable, but it is not optimized.

Now I have yet to ever visit the ECB forums; simply use their Search engine, and their builds are full of variations on themes (eg; Robin Hood). And if there was a best design, then only a single result would seem to be rerquired; yet several are offered. The reason is often an offering for subjective criteria, themes, whatever; will let actual contributors speak of their motives.

Given that defintion, if there is a decisive best to be saught, then every result but one in each category is not best; thus the site is NOT for Munchkins.

Now for those that wish to purposely hinder their designs with useless Feats, skills, etc in the name of RP: Sorry, but a lack of power does not a RP'er make. Some of the best RP players I have met in NWN1 are also partial PG. Being good in RP has nothing at all to do with a strong or weak build at all.

Builders often wish to make efficient designs given various criteria; being the decisive best is not always the goal.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:50 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Bansidhe]

               Dunno about you,but when im playing on a slow lvling RP server I pretty much want my char. too be a hero,just like all those stories and films that inspired me too play rpg,s...so yes I will check out builds and tweak them too my tastes.

Is that munchkinism..I dont think so ,I call it making my char. what I envisioned,they may even veer off course on their journey depending what happens in their life.

Optomising,yes could call it that,but then,so do Olympic athletes too achieve what they do,I dont see the problem.

I often find the above "Oooh look he took epic prowess with his barbarian fighter instead of basket weaving,which y'"know would be so much more representative of his arable upbringing!" a bit method actor luvvie Mwah,mwah,gosh im so elitest,I actually studied macrame for my Ranger ,cos y.know it gives the character "depth".What go out on a hunt,God no I always get killed! too be honest.
Simple solution,You make your char how you like and i,ll make mine how I like,end of. '>

And one last thing has anyone,anyone at all who,s played on a pw ever just pressed the recommended button for every lvl?   No?,,,,Munchkin!*points*  '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               I am in the camp that the munchkin is in the player (or at least the play style) and not the build. Yes, there are features of the game that, IMO, would be better if implemented differently to avoid benefits that are disproportionate to costs. (E.g. cap monk wisdom AC bonus to number of monk levels; ditto for divine grace save bonuses; no more than ten skill points can be spent per skill per level; etc.) But, the game is what it is. People will tweak it to their liking all day long (until, basically, they have trouble getting people to play their module because it's so different from standard NWN) and they still won't preclude munchkinism.

Part of the problem that people (like me, at least) have with use of the term "munchkin build" is the practical application of the definitions people are using when they use the term. I mean, when one labels something a "munchkin build", what is the implication?
1) It can only be played in a munchkin way.
2) It will only be played by munchkin players. (E.g. players who are only interested in kill stats, etc.)
3) It can be role-played, but the typical player of the build will be munchkin.
4) Some significant fraction of the players won't be munchkins, but enough will that they taint the impression of the build.
5) The majority of players using the build will play it about the same as they would a build without the label, but some smaller fraction of players go the munchkin route and that makes people suspicious of the rest.

And so on. The reason I mention this has to do with how strong the complaint against a "munchkin build" is. If the implication is 1), then it's a strong complaint, but 1) is almost certainly false. And, the complaint gets weaker as one goes down the list. Eventually, at say 4) or 5), the implication can apply to many builds also played by people who are excellent role-players, so the complaint against the build itself is rather weak and it's just an unpleasant label that will inevitably irk the people who play such builds and don't see themselves (or their characters) as munchkins.

And, I won't even go into the potential false dichotomy that exists in assuming someone who wants a character with great statistics can't also do a good job of role-playing. That's just nonsense, but it's a common perception.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 07 septembre 2012 - 11:52 .