The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)

[Legacy_PlasmaJohn]

               

WebShaman wrote...

Oh yeah, to the multiple related PW thing - Avlis did this (they still around?).  I am not quite sure who came up with the tool that alllowed for syncing multiple PW databanks.  But it made it possible for structures like Avlis to exist.  I believe that is how they did their Outer Planes stuff...each one on a different PW.  So this is already possible and has been done.

Yes, Avlis is still around.  The Avlis servers themselves are on a shared vault.  We still participate in CoPaP ( http://www.copap.org ) 

The tool you're thinking of is Vaultster which transmits a copy of the player's bic to other NWN severs with their own vaults.  The concept was conceived by Orl and Pappillion (IIRC) and originally coded by JeronenB.  I rewrote it a couple of years ago so the receiver could work on Linux.  Vaultster is part of the NWNX distribution.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par PlasmaJohn, 15 août 2012 - 02:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               ^Thanks for the update, PlasmaJohn!  Fills in some of the holes that I have.

Much appreciated.

And it is nice to know that Avlis and CoPaP are still around!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

MrZork wrote...

I don't see how it benefits the discussion to argue along the lines of "If you point out flaws with the thing I like, you must not like it and you should go away / there's no point talking to you." For sure, someone can understand that NWN has enduring flaws without disliking NWN.

....

But there are certainly aspects of NWN that aren't done as well as they could be and are (AFAIK) very difficult to change. Pointing that out (even if I were to do it by comparison with things some other game does better) doesn't in any way imply that I don't like NWN.

Well said.  Along with everything else.  I wish I could help design stuff for WoW and submit it for evaluation, but alas that isn't possible.  So I fiddle with stuff in NWN.

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

@magicalmaster didnt want to insult you or anything but to me, as narrow minded about nwn as i am it
is trolling. this game has provided the master tool for rpg creation and ehem blizzard...Now you throw in starcraft? The sims has a modding community as large as the old halflife one too...

I was pointing out that, if anything, Starcraft II is more similar to NWN than WoW.  Both have single-player, co-op, and even a more persistent online scene that is very focused on custom content and a toolset.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

MM you are the one who wanted to talk about how PWs are paid for, and I gave my opinion, and some ideas
in addition to stating that I fully support a PW community’s ability to share that burden. But I do not support that being used as an excuse to profit from it, especially when it is hand in hand with conferring unfair advantages to donators (aka pay to win.) Of course the money has to come from somewhere, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that it is free for the majority of the players, and it doesn’t have to be used as an excuse to exploit player bases (be it WOWers, or NWN 1 PW communities, or whoever…)

I don't understand why you think the WoW player base is being exploited.  Blizzard makes a games and charges a montly fee to recoup development costs, maintain the servers, and generate more content.  You might argue you think $13-15 a month is too much and a rip-off, but right now you're arguing it's a scam if Blizzard chages $0.01 a month.  That's what I don't get.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

MagicalMaster: Im on your side. This is indeed the same as when some player started thread on WoW forums with saying that NWN is crap. There is no point of comparing either of games.

Though, I dont think there is any future in MMORPGs like WoW anymore. Latest games are pumping latest money and players must soon realize its the same over and over.

Thanks.  And yeah, I don't think pumping out WoW clones in a different setting is going to work.  WoW succeeded because of how different it was from predecessors, not because it was so similar.

WebShaman wrote...

This puzzles me - it always has been this way.  You want to be a PW Owner, run your own PW, etc?  Yep, you
foot the bill.  This is what Bioware DEMANDED (no pay-to-play, donation only).  PWs that violated this and came to Bioware's attention got spanked.

....

The costs in actual financial terms of hosting a PW is not that high, really.  What is high is MAINTAINING it.
The investment of time is IMHO the most costly.  It is the main reason that most PWs end up having to go the Staff route - and not just for DMs.  And all these peeps do it in their free time (because they do not get paid to do what they do).

Oh, I agree with all of that.  My main point is that it seems odd for Lazarus to demand Blizzard doesn't get paid to maintain WoW and that it's a scam.  It's not legal in NWN, of course, but if I found a PW I liked I'd have no objection to paying a few bucks a month to play there.  I recognize the time and energy people are putting into it (along with stuff like the minimal hosting costs).

WebShaman wrote...

I can't remember how I got turned on to Neverwinter Nights.  I was not one of those who came from BG - I had never played BG before NWN.  I think I heard about it somewhere online, and got into the game at the
beginning (it was billed as the "next big D&D CRPG", iirc)

I walked into a video game store and asked the clerk for an interesting RPG.  Very randomly stumbed onto NWN.

WebShaman wrote...

Oh yeah, before I forget - I know of a PW where there is a LOT of scripted story, quests, etc - Thain.  Now, this is not a Thain fan drop, but just a means to point out at least one PW that has a lot of story in it - in fact, it is centered
around a storyline.  One can even DL (or could) the PW for solo play - which is a lot of fun, really.  I have modified my solo version of Thainextensively for added fun.

And no, you will not level up to 20 there in 4 hours.  I know for a fact that it will take longer - I think around a week of MMO style grinding may do it - but you will need to really know the place and the spawn loops to do this.  And you will need to be a real pro at solo-ing, or have a really good team.  Not meaning that the encounters are difficult - they are not, not really.  But death does have the added penalty of an XP "pause" that means you cannot earn
XP for awhile, game time.  Meaning you cannot just log out and wait, you need to be in game and wait.

Yeah, I tried Thain briefly and didn't particularly like it, only got a few levels in.  I may be biased because I went to the first combat zone, was exploring around, and then was one-shot by an Impossible archer mob before I even saw it (must have had long perception).  Then the quest giver had vanished and wasn't possible to find (and I checked every nook and cranny of the town, including inside the buildings).  Then the XP for the quest was pitiful after she randomly reappeared like 20 minutes later.  Then I explored a bit, died, logged off for the night, logged back on, and found out I was supposed to wait over 30 minutes real time.  Being encouraged to alt-tab and play a different game seems like awful design.

Beyond all that, Thain was...er, great.  Maybe it picks up later on.  But considering I've played on at least four other PWs for a decent amount of time, it was by far the worst starting experience and gave me very little hope for later on.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 17 août 2012 - 12:36 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Double post.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 17 août 2012 - 12:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Well...if you DL the PW Mod (assuming one still can, haven't checked in ages), you can actually open it up and see the storyline, and how it is done.  I consider it pretty good.

Bitraiser did some awesome work back then with his staff on it.

Yet another great gone... *sigh*

I won't go into the subjective parts pertaining to the PW here - perhaps in a PM?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Sent.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Urk]

               MMO's aren't dead. MMO's will be around for a LONG time. P2P MMO's are dead. $15 a month to play a video game that you already payed for? IMO that's just stupid.

Ironically the F2P model is going to drive itself out of fashion in pretty short order too. Games need to be monetized. That's fair and reasonable, but the price needs to be balanced with the value. The problem with MMO's isn't the payment structure. F2P and P2P are both perfectly workable solutions, as are all the various hybrids. The problems MMO's keep having are just plain bad management.

WoW set a bad precedent. They were new, they were exciting. They took an established business model and turned it into a money mill. That became the bar.

This is an absurdity.

Still, every MMO that's come out in the last decade has reached for that bar. I won't get into all the reasons that this was a fool's errand, but the short of it is they all failed. The golden age of WoW was a fluke. It was a one time master stroke that will never happen again, and even Blizzard is coming to terms with the idea that it wasn't sustainable.

The market is making decisions about value, but the managers aren't listening.

The market is no longer willing to pay $120 a year to play WoW.

So now the kneejerk is switching to a F2P model. At first this was great. You played for free and payed a little extra for a fancy horse or a costume or emotive animations. But then the F2P tone began to change. Now it's getting so that player trades are becoming tightly controlled so they don't get in the way of the official store. Worse yet... it't getting so that to compete at... or even REACH higher levels of play you need to buy special equipment. Again... st first... no big deal. But the payed items became more powerful and more expensive with each release. Soon you're finding yourself paying more to update your equipment every time the game is patched, and the free players fall further and further behind the curve. The F2P managers are proudly patting themselves on the back and ignoring the howls on their forums until, once again... the players start to leave.

Eventually these studios will find a balance of pay:play, but they are going to need to shake off the ghost of WoW first. That lightning isn't going to strike again. A new mindset needs to be adopted. If you can make an MMO that people want to play, and make money at it, you've made a successful game.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Urk wrote...

MMO's aren't dead. MMO's will be around for a LONG time. P2P MMO's are dead. $15 a month to play a video game that you already payed for? IMO that's just stupid.

Why?  If it was a single player game on your computer with no updates I'd understand.  You don't see a difference between that and an MMO?

Urk wrote...

The market is no longer willing to pay $120 a year to play WoW.

So instead of playing WoW for a year, they'd rather pay $60 for two new games over the course of a year and play those?  What if they're happy playing WoW?

I mean, Mass Effect 3 has like a 30 hour campaign for $60.  Even if I only play WoW for 10 hours a week, that's $0.38 an hour.  For Mass Effect 3 to have the same value I'd need to play the game for 158 hours.  In other words, do the equivalent of over five full playthroughs.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Urk]

               I don't quibble with trolls, dude.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I'm trying to interpret that charitably, but I'm failing to see that as anything but calling me a troll.

If that's the case, perhaps you could explain where I'm trolling?  Because I'm pretty sure the sequence of events went like this:

Urk: $15 a month to play a video game that you already payed for? IMO that's just stupid.

Magical Master: Well, I don't think it's stupid because of reasons x, y, and z

So I provided logical argument and you...just called it stupid.  And now you're claiming *I'm* the troll?  And claiming the whole basis of P2P versus F2P versus whatever is *quibbling?*
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 20 août 2012 - 06:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

WebShaman wrote...
It was mentioned by MrZork, I believe, about the GUI issue.  Well, that one is a big issue actually.  It was one of the greatest of obstacles to bringing custom races, classes, etc to NWN play.  I am not currently up to date on this obstacle - has it been solved?

I believe Virus Man is on this case using the client extender to enable the use of custom content during character creation in a multiplayer game.

My solution was to use Overrides for custom races, feats, etc... since I think that sets a lower bar than requiring players to use the client extender. And that works well enough except that a few players are turned off by the idea.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Urk]

               Fine, MM...

First, just FYI, I have read the entire thread including your previous walls of text.  That's why I'm treating you like a troll.

So... Why do I think it's stupid to pay $15 a month to play a video game? Fine... here it is...

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

I mean you could actually read my previous post and if your not a complete idiot you will probably (and correctly) infer that I don't think MMO's offer value congruent to the subscription price. Please don't crunch the numbers again, I know you diagree. But again, from a business perspective my reasoning doesn't matter.

So what does matter?

What matters is I'm a prospective customer who thinks paying $120 a year (on top of the purchase price) to play one video game is stupid. What matters is that an ever increasing number of gamers, for an infinite variety of reasons none of which matter either, are starting to agree with me. What matters is that not only has the MMO player base willing to pay those prices begun to dwindle, it also has more choices and has begun to spread itself thin title jumping.

And, of course, it matters that game publishing is a business, and in business you adapt or die.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Urk, 21 août 2012 - 02:29 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Urk wrote...

First, just FYI, I have read the entire thread including your previous walls of text.  That's why I'm treating you like a troll.

That's not an answer.  Please point to a spot or spots where you think I've been trolling.  Otherwise, stop calling me a troll.

Urk wrote...

So... Why do I think it's stupid to pay $15 a month to play a video game? Fine... here it is...

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

I mean you could actually read my previous post and if your not a complete idiot you will probably (and correctly) infer that I don't think MMO's offer value congruent to the subscription price. Please don't crunch the numbers again, I know you diagree. But again, from a business perspective my reasoning doesn't matter.

Of course it matters, due to the underlined and bolded section.

For example, if WoW charged $1 a month as a subscription fee, would you still think that MMO's don't "offer value congruent to the subscription price?"

See, if you think that paying *any* subscription, even if it's $0.01 a month, is outrageous, then yes, you're never going to play WoW or another subscription MMO.  However, if $15 a month is too much for you but you're fine with $10 (or $5 or whatever) , then that's important because the MMO can try to adjust the subscription price or figure out a way to offer multiple prices that allow access to different features.

Urk wrote...

And, of course, it matters that game publishing is a business, and in business you adapt or die.

And to adapt you need to figure out what the customers want.  Which means knowing whether customers aren't interested in WoW because they refuse to pay *any* subscription fee or because they only want to pay $10 a month is important.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               LOL MM, who do you work for?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               During the summer?  A summer academy where I teach first and second graders about space flight and basic physics.

During the school year?  I'm a TA for a computer science class.

Beyond that?  I'm a graduate student.

So no, I don't work for Blizzard.  And I have plenty of gripes with them (such as nerfing content far too quickly, a new "Looking for Raid" feature they put in, specifically in regards to its loot system, and brokenly overpowered gear and set bonuses in the last patch).  Hell, I have a whole thread basically complaining about the second and third things here: http://us.battle.net...opic/5836093756

But just because I think Blizzard has its flaws and mistakes doesn't mean I think they should be unfairly criticized about something.