The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Well, let me see here.

I have one person telling me things that I know and trust.

And I have you saying the opposite.

I think you can see how that is going.

BTW -

I never said otherwise.  I just said it wasn't as big of an impact as in NWN.  And that you never simply died or couldn't do a particular boss since you didn't have a specific item.

Now, Granny says you get a message saying "you don't have items X (whatever)" that prevents doing the Raid Y if you do not have the necessary items.  You saying that is not true?

Be aware that I can post pics here...

Where in the OCs does one need "certain items" to complete it (NWN)?

I will put it this way - I know the NWN OCs very, very well.  I know that I can complete them without "necessary items" - and I never needed "specific items" to defeat any Boss.

This comparison is false.

If you play on a specific PW, sure you do!  And if the rules have been changed much (particularly some custom feats or something) then that character isn't even playable elsewhere.  Even if the rules have changed, you can't take the character to another PW.

Now, if you're talking about single-player, then sure.  But on the flip side, many authors do change the rules and you simply don't play their campaigns.

Oh, that is just not the case.  If I don't like a specific PW, blah blah, I can make my own.  Did it with Thain, for example - d/l and changed it to suit my tastes.  And others.  And if I don't like how an author did a certain adventure, then I change it.

I can do this in NWN.  Can you do this in WoW?  

You seem very "fanbois-ish" towards WoW in your text walls.  Which is ok, I guess.  I have nothing against you liking or playing the game.  But what I am hearing from others, is very different from what you are posting.

So I will bow out here, as there is nothing more here for me to discuss.  Why should I trust your text walls more than the words from those I have known for years?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PlasmaJohn]

               Y'know guys... you've gone well beyond NWN vs. WoW and are now just debating the mertis of WoW which is waaaaaay off-topic for this forum.  Please take it elsewhere and quit trolling each other here.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par PlasmaJohn, 13 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Well… this thread has evolved into having many topics, but I think we have fleshed out the differences between WOW and NWN1 ad nauseam.

I still however don’t think some of the main points of this thread have been adequately discussed, specifically:

1) What is the future of on line multiplayer games?
2) And what I am more interested in is, can we think of ideas that would give a game developer incentive to produce a modern day equivalent to NWN 1?

As the article (http://games.yahoo.c...-223042438.html) in the OP pointed out, MMO games are changing. I encourage everyone to re-read this. Bioware, EA, and Blizzard are all discussed, and it has some very telling insights I think.

The article basically contends that F2P model is making a come back and P2P is on the decline. But my question is, how can the F2P model be sustainable for the developer, to provide them with enough incentive to produce a modern day equivalent of NWN 1? What ideas do you all have about that?

I put forth the idea of the developer offering reasonably priced, quality hosting, so that even ten years later, long after profits from sales have dropped off, they are still bringing in money from the title, providing them with incentive for continuing to support it, and equally important incentive in the first place for producing such a game. By such a game I mean one that can hold it’s customers interest for over a decade as NWN 1 has, which I chalk up primarily due to it’s modability (ability to customize.)

It’s basically art, which can be shared in an online, communal format. The game itself is the clay (or the paint, or whatever), and CC contributors are the artists, and PWs (and single player mods) are the art galleries. It’s a 21st century form of art, unlike any art before, where by the viewers of such art are active participants (players), and the original art can be the work of one individual, or 100’s.

So ok my idea might not work, or provide enough incentive. Especially if looked at in the short term, or compared to WOW profit model. But as some of the data we have seen (http://users.telenet...arts/Subs-1.png ), many others have tried to repeat the WOW model, and none have come close. So this isn’t really a fair comparison, or a reasonable bar to set.

I think Plasma John put forth the idea of licensing? Although the legalities of that might get complicated?

Ultimately it may not be any one thing that gives a developer the incentive to do this. It may be a combination of these things, or a desire to go down in history as the originator of a 21st century art form. Does anyone else have any ideas or thoughts on this?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 14 septembre 2012 - 07:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

You seem very "fanbois-ish" towards WoW in your text walls.  Which is ok, I guess.  I have nothing against you liking or playing the game.  But what I am hearing from others, is very different from what you are posting.

So I will bow out here, as there is nothing more here for me to discuss.  Why should I trust your text walls more than the words from those I have known for years?

If I seem "fanboi-ish" it's because I hate misinformation.  There are many reasons not to play WoW, but I hate to see it falsely accused of something.  And I've been negative about WoW quite a few times on the WoW forums.  For example, I posted this less than an hour ago:

"I'm not enough of an optimist to trust Blizzard to never mess up like they did in t13 again.  Or trust that we can convince them that it's a bad idea so they can change it if it looks like they're doing it again.  Thus, I'm pushing for option 2 because that way if the worst comes to pass, we can do something about it.  What I'm really trying to avoid is option 3."

I'm speaking about an issue that affects like 1% of the playerbase, by the way, if you're curious, which was solely an issue for the top maybe 1,000-2,000 guilds in the world (out of over 60,000 raiding guilds and far more non-raiding guilds).

But if you like playing on a PW or a campaign and someone started saying things about it that simply weren't true, wouldn't you defend it?

WebShaman wrote...

Well, let me see here.

I have one person telling me things that I know and trust.

And I have you saying the opposite.

I think you can see how that is going.

Which is why I asked if he had killed Heroic Nefarian, Sinestra, Cho'gall, Al'akir, Ragnaros, Spine of Deathwing, or Madness of Deathwing.

I doubt he has.  In other words, he's talking about things in which he has little to no experience.  Which doesn't make him a bad person or something but it means he doesn't really know what he's talking about.  Do you think I'm lying about the facts I mentioned?

WebShaman wrote...

Now, Granny says you get a message saying "you don't have items X (whatever)" that prevents doing the Raid Y if you do not have the necessary items.  You saying that is not true?

Be aware that I can post pics here...

I'm quite aware you can post pics here and I'd welcome you to do so if it'll help clear this up.

So, there are two parts to your question.

First of all, for Raids, there are NO restrictions.  Zero.  None.  Besides being maximum level.  If you made a WoW character and leveled up to 85, I could immediately take you to the hardest raid in the game and let you see it.  Now, you wouldn't be able to pull your weight for multiple reasons, but there would be nothing from stopping you from entering the zone or fighting with us.

There *are* restrictions of sorts for AUTOMATED grouping.  In WoW, there's an LFG (Looking for Group, assembles 5 man dungeon groups) and LFR (Looking for Raid, assembles 25 man raid groups).  Note that LFR is intentionally designed to be easy and lack basically any sort of group responsibility because you're throwing 25 people sort of randomly together.

Because of the fact you're throwing together 5 or 25 complete strangers automatically together, the game does check to see if you pass a minimum AVERAGE gear threshold.

To put it in NWN terms, let's say you're playing a fighter.  You hit level 40 with +3 armor,  +2 amulet, +3 ring, +2 shield, and +2 boots.  That's a total of 12 AC from items.  Right away, you can do several dungeons that all drop +4 gear.

However, there's a tougher dungeon that's designed for a fighter with 16 AC from items.  Before the system is willing to throw you into a random group for the harder dungeon, you have to get your AC up to +16.  As you can tell, the total AC you can get from the easier dungeons is +20.  You don't need to do them for every last piece or something, but you do need at least an item or two so you don't get slaughtered in the harder zone.

Which means, for example, you could do a dungeon or two and pick up a +4 amulet and +4 shield.  Suddenly, you're able to be thrown into the automatic grouping system for the harder dungeon if you choose.  Or, you could get your armor, ring, and boots to +4 each and have 16.  Or your boots and shield.  The system doesn't care which specific items you have, it just wants to know your overall AC is high enough to not get slaughtered.

So yeah, if you hit max level with a mundane full plate and longsword, the system will "Whoa there, no way I can send you into a group of strangers with that, you need at least SOME gear."  Because if everyone in your group had the same equipment, you'd utterly fail.  Just like in NWN where five fighters in mundane plate armor and longswords at max level would be pretty terrible.  It wouldn't be fair to the rest of the group if you joined.

Now, that said, if you have four friends you are free to have them take you to the harder dungeon and run you through despite your 12 AC.  You just cannot use the automatic grouping system.  And said automatic grouping system only exists for easy content and not for normal or heroic raids.

If any of that is unclear, please let me know.  It boils down to that the game won't randomly throw you into a group of strangers unless you pass a basic check to make sure you won't get slaughtered in an AUTOMATIC GROUPING and OPTIONAL system.  Which is also easier content.  If you want to do normal or heroic raids, the game will *never* tell you "You cannot enter this zone because you don't have certain items" or something.

WebShaman wrote...

Where in the OCs does one need "certain items" to complete it (NWN)?

I was referencing Higher Ground in that example.  And I'm speaking from personal experience about constantly dying solely because I didn't have certain items on that world (mainly damage immunity/resistance items in that case).  The OC is so easy it doesn't matter anyway, I meant in terms of a difficult campaign or PW.

WebShaman wrote...

Oh, that is just not the case.  If I don't like a specific PW, blah blah, I can make my own.  Did it with Thain, for example - d/l and changed it to suit my tastes.  And others.  And if I don't like how an author did a certain adventure, then I change it.

How many PWs can you download besides Thain?  Honest question, I'm curious.  And your willingness to edit PWs and campaigns in the toolset is beyond most players '>  Which I think you know.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:33 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Well… this thread has evolved into having many topics, but I think we have fleshed out the differences between WOW and NWN1 ad nauseam.

I still however don’t think some of the main points of this thread have been adequately discussed, specifically:

1) What is the future of on line multiplayer games?
2) And what I am more interested in is, can we think of ideas that would give a game developer incentive to produce a modern day equivalent to NWN 1?

As the article (http://games.yahoo.c...-223042438.html) in the OP pointed out, MMO games are changing. I encourage everyone to re-read this. Bioware, EA, and Blizzard are all discussed, and it has some very telling insights I think.

The article basically contends that F2P model is making a come back and P2P is on the decline. But my question is, how can the F2P model be sustainable for the developer, to provide them with enough incentive to produce a modern day equivalent of NWN 1? What ideas do you all have about that?

I put forth the idea of the developer offering reasonably priced, quality hosting, so that even ten years later, long after profits from sales have dropped off, they are still bringing in money from the title, providing them with incentive for continuing to support it, and equally important incentive in the first place for producing such a game. By such a game I mean one that can hold it’s customers interest for over a decade as NWN 1 has, which I chalk up primarily due to it’s modability (ability to customize.)

It’s basically art, which can be shared in an online, communal format. The game itself is the clay (or the paint, or whatever), and CC contributors are the artists, and PWs (and single player mods) are the art galleries. It’s a 21st century form of art, unlike any art before, where by the viewers of such art are active participants (players), and the original art can be the work of one individual, or 100’s.

So ok my idea might not work, or provide enough incentive. Especially if looked at in the short term, or compared to WOW profit model. But as some of the data we have seen (http://users.telenet...arts/Subs-1.png ), many others have tried to repeat the WOW model, and none have come close. So this isn’t really a fair comparison, or a reasonable bar to set.

I think Plasma John put forth the idea of licensing? Although the legalities of that might get complicated?

Ultimately it may not be any one thing that gives a developer the incentive to do this. It may be a combination of these things, or a desire to go down in history as the originator of a 21st century art form. Does anyone else have any ideas or thoughts on this?

*sigh*
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Squatting Monk]

               Thanks for getting the thread back on track, Laz.

Here's a question for consideration: what made NWN1 as successful as it was? Is it just that it enabled you to create your own modules or custom content? Is it that the developer kept up with it over the years? Is it that it appealed to a niche market? Whatever it was, can we expect a game that does the same to be as successful as (or even more so than) NWN? Was NWN's success inevitable, or more the product of chance, where the right company produced the right game at the right time that got picked up by the right people who ended up building a community that did the right things to keep the game alive?

And for perspective, what other successful games can we learn from? (And before people get their britches in knots, remember that not every successful game is good and not every good game is successful.) What did they do right? And what about those good games that weren't successful? What did they do wrong? How much of games' success or failure is the product of the strengths of the game itself, how much is the product of the publisher, developer, and players? How much is the product of random chance?

I think these questions are worth considering, because just because NWN was successful doesn't necessarily mean that a New And Improved ™ NWN would be. Having a financial incentive for a developer to make the game would be great. But if it's a bomb, it's not really going to do us much good. So would NWN with an updated engine and graphics necessarily be successful (either in the long or short term)?

And FWIW, I have no answers or opinions on these questions. Just putting them out there in hopes they're helpful and productive.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Squatting Monk wrote...

Thanks for getting the thread back on track, Laz.

Web and I are done, we promise.

Squatting Monk wrote...

Is it just that it enabled you to create your own modules or custom content?  Is it that the developer kept up with it over the years? Is it that it appealed to a niche market?

Yes, no, no.  As mentioned, the engine itself is lacking in cases and trying to do a DnD 3rd conversion caused a bunch of problems (like Discipline).  But the ability to make custom campaigns and PWs is what made it different from other RPGs.

The developer didn't keep up with it all that much as far as I can tell (beyond the expansions you pay for) and I don't think RPGs are really a nice market.

Squatting Monk wrote...

Whatever it was, can we expect a game that does the same to be as successful as (or even more so than) NWN? Was NWN's success inevitable, or more the product of chance, where the right company produced the right game at the right time that got picked up by the right people who ended up building a community that did the right things to keep the game alive?

It succeeded for the same reason WoW succeeded, I think.  It was the only game in its category with a decent quality at the time.  Maybe I just don't play enough games, but I don't know of any other RPG with a NWN style toolset that is even close to being as good as NWN.

But its success wasn't inevitable or chance.  Just a product of the environment.

Squatting Monk wrote...

And for perspective, what other successful games can we learn from? (And before people get their britches in knots, remember that not every successful game is good and not every good game is successful.) What did they do right? And what about those good games that weren't successful? What did they do wrong? How much of games' success or failure is the product of the strengths of the game itself, how much is the product of the publisher, developer, and players? How much is the product of random chance?

Get a better combat engine.  The inability for melee to attack while moving is bad, for example.

A lot of a game's success is marketing, which wasn't done enough for NWN, I think.  Like I said above, NWN didn't succeed because "OMG THIS GAME IS AMAZING" it succeeded because no other game offered a good RPG with a good toolset (that I know of).  Plus, it came after Baldur's Gate which quite helped, I imagine.

Squatting Monk wrote...

I think these questions are worth considering, because just because NWN was successful doesn't necessarily mean that a New And Improved ™ NWN would be. Having a financial incentive for a developer to make the game would be great. But if it's a bomb, it's not really going to do us much good. So would NWN with an updated engine and graphics necessarily be successful (either in the long or short term)?

Yes, I think so.  Look at Starcraft II, which is basically updated engine and graphics for Starcraft.  People like being able to make custom content if the toolset is easy enough to work with.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Well… this thread has evolved into having many topics, but I think we have fleshed out the differences between WOW and NWN1 ad nauseam.

I still however don’t think some of the main points of this thread have been adequately discussed, specifically:

1) What is the future of on line multiplayer games?
2) And what I am more interested in is, can we think of ideas that would give a game developer incentive to produce a modern day equivalent to NWN 1?

I wasn't paying attention at the time, but I wonder if the original game + expansion + premium module model to fund development could have continued if not for Bioware's desire to create an in-house IP, Atari's financial difficulties, and their wanting to push NWN2.

In any case, it seems like a lot of things could work given some studios can fund sustained development just by selling virtual goods like hats and mounts (eg, Guildwars 2, Team Fortress2, and Mass Effect 3 even).  I could see a publisher/developer in the model of Paradox able to sustain development if a solid community formed around it.  It would probably take someone that had little interest in pushing AAA games.

Squatting Monk wrote...
Here's a question for consideration: what made NWN1 as successful as it was? Is it just that it enabled you to create your own modules or custom content? Is it that the developer kept up with it over the years? Is it that it appealed to a niche market? Whatever it was, can we expect a game that does the same to be as successful as (or even more so than) NWN? Was NWN's success inevitable, or more the product of chance, where the right company produced the right game at the right time that got picked up by the right people who ended up building a community that did the right things to keep the game alive? 

These are all great questions.  I wonder if there wasn't some serendipty in the timing.  That when it was released and even for a number of years after it presented a kind of optimum for technology and accessibilty.  Maybe that's still true today, the only reason I'd say not (I run a PW, etc) is because the technology is now so out of date.  Aurora is like lincoln logs compared to other toolsets, but people are undoubtedly able to create great, unique, things with it.  Even those without much technical/artistic background.  Then being a Bioware game actually having enough players to care about and explore those creations helped a great deal too I'd say.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 16 septembre 2012 - 11:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

pope_leo said:

but I wonder if the original game + expansion + premium module model to fund development could have continued if not for Bioware's desire to create an in-house IP, Atari's financial difficulties, and their wanting to push NWN2.

^ This.

It was working.  Peeps were purchasing the premium Mods and it was bringing in revenue.  I firmly believe that it panicked Atari (who was looking to end NWN development in order to "move" the Community over to NWN2 at the time) and they moved to kill it off.

And then effectively killed off the same proceedure for NWN2 with the MoW DRM fiasco.

It seems that this sort of "model" was killed off.  I do not know why, really.  It looked like it was proving to be a good one, at least one that was sustainable.  The Premium Mod project brought a lot of great content to NWN (implemented in a later patch).

We see this sort of behavior now as "dlc for pay" in many games, especially DA, DA2, ME, etc.  But I would not label it exactly the same here, as the Premium Mods were created by OUTSIDE groups (who got paid for their work...).  And the Mods are stand-alones, meaning they are not part of the official OCs (unlike most DLC these days).  

I firmly believe that the Premium Mod project would have kept development for NWN alive, at least for patching and improving on the game, as well as empowering various groups financially for an indefinite time.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PlasmaJohn]

               

WebShaman wrote...

It was working.  Peeps were purchasing the premium Mods and it was bringing in revenue.  I firmly believe that it panicked Atari (who was looking to end NWN development in order to "move" the Community over to NWN2 at the time) and they moved to kill it off.

No such thing.  Infogrames (aka Atari) and Hasbro had a big fight and the former legally had to stop distributing D&D licensed products.  They eventually did settle, but the damage was done and NWN and NWN2 were end-of-life'd

I firmly believe that the Premium Mod project would have kept development for NWN alive, at least for patching and improving on the game, as well as empowering various groups financially for an indefinite time.

I remember hearing that the Premium Mod program was making enough money for Bioware to fund one or more developers.  Alas the Infogrames/Atari dust-up and the acquisition of Bioware by EA made reinstatement pretty much impossible.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par PlasmaJohn, 18 septembre 2012 - 04:17 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

PJ said :

Infogrames (aka Atari) and Hasbro had a big fight and the former legally had to stop distributing D&D licensed products.  They eventually did settle, but the damage was done and NWN and NWN2 were end-of-life'd

I don't think you are considering the time-line here.  You will, of course, have knowledge that MoW was released as a Premium Mod for NWN2, by the same group that tried (and failed) to have a Premium Mod released for NWN (though DoD was released as a Mod by that group).

Bioware fought viciously to get DLA's WCoC released as a Premium Mod (and it squeaked by, apparently).  My guess is that ridable horses, cloaks, etc really put Atari under pressure (and Obsidian, though rideable horses was supposed to be "in" for NWN2, before officially landing on the cutting room floor).

Fact is, that the quality of the Premium Mods was getting better and better (PotSC, WCoC, DoD).  I think this alarmed Atari, as they really did expect the NWN Community to "move over" to NWN2 and embrace it.

Apparently, Atari killed off the Premium Mod program for NWN and it was continued for NWN2 (see MoW).  So that obviously had nothing to do with the Atari/Hasbro fight.

We also have to take into consideration that Atari was at that time financially practically bankrupt and was desperately looking for lots of cash, quickly.  The Premium Mods for NWN were good for NWN and could enable Bioware (at the time) to continue to patch NWN - but the revenue for Atari was not nearly anywhere near what they needed, especially as they were rushing NWN2 out the door.

The enormous amount of time lost for NWN2 Premium Mods was due to the DRM fiasco, that took over a year to get straightened out.  By then, the Atari/Hasbro fight was full in bloom, ending any and all hope for more Premium Mods (and patches, btw).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_comeandsee]

               I got this game back when it first came out back in 02-03 and it's one of those few games that have left a lasting impression on me over the years. Hell, I still have the original CDs!!

The fact that you could create your own content and host your own servers was the biggest plus factor regarding this game. MMOs have really failed to catch on to this because they believe being a developer gives them God-mentality. NWN you can create your own game and change the flow whenever and however you want. I hosted a server with my friend in 04-05 and we had almost 30 people on all the time and it was a challenge to keep them all entertained, but the players entertained themselves by roleplaying amongst each other.

MMOs are getting stagnant because they're basically just copying off each other to the point it's just like "Korean WoW, "Space WoW", etc.

NWN2 failed to take off because the game engine ran like complete ASS. I bought it when it came out and I had a reasonably powerful computer for the time period and this thing brought my PC to a crawl. I tried it a few years on my 1st gen i7 computer and it still ran like garbage.

I mean, I was really surprised when my friend told me people were still playing this games multiplayer. I can just imagine how far this game has gone since my teenage haydays.

Also, the #1 thing I still dislike about NWN1 is the fact you need 5-8 different expansions just to log on the server. I don't even know if I have the serial keys anymore. Also, the combat system and classes has always been confusing. Basically Dragon Age came in and dumbed it down.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par comeandsee, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               Looks like I'm late to the party '>

I'd say to make a modern NWN-style game, developers will have to look outside the game industry for ideas, and see what's happening on the web. Prosumers and community-created content are on the rise.

Look at places like Second Life, Youtube, the smartphone app stores and Windows/Xbox Live Marketplace. They adopt a very ground-up approach - the owners do very little development other than back end work.

The bulk of the content is made by the community, and the community is incentivized to make content because they can make money from it - as a Youtube Partner, a Second Life store owner, an Android app developer or what have you. That's on top of the possible recognition and celebrity status they can get.

Suppose this concept were to be applied to an RPG maker. At its heart would be an isometric engine like NWN to be bandwidth-friendly by avoiding the walkmesh nightmare that was NWN2. Combat and classes will be an empty slate - have some basic support for targeting, melee attacks, ranged attacks, point blank AoEs, targeted AoEs, moving attacks, cooldowns etc, but largely remain ruleset-neutral. Let modders handle the intricacies of emulating actual systems like say, D&D. As far as licenses like OGL will allow anyway.

And then have some stock monsters, character appearances, tilesets etc. But the bulk of the content will come from the content toolset and content store, where modders can make and sell content like tilesets, armors, monsters, scripts etc. These will be bought by builders to use in their mods.

After that, have a builder toolset for builders to put these things together, add quests, dialogs etc in to make a PW. Basic hosting is provided by the publisher for free, but only up to X number of players, like say, 6. Any higher, the builder has to pay, but the builder is also given the tools to manage an in-game cash shop in their mod so that players can help them raise the funds. All transactions are done via the developer's own currency.

So the publisher stands to make money at 4 points: They get a lump sum when people buy the game's currency. They can take a cut from transactions in the content store. They can also take a cut from transactions in the builder's cash shop. Finally, when builders or custom content creators cash out their earnings as real money, they can take a cut as well.

The main problem I forsee with such a model is IP rights management. People are very likely going to copy content from other games or other modders, and because money is involved, they publisher is going to have a rough time preventing copyright infringement to avoid lawsuits.

I'm pretty sure something like this is going to come sooner or later, because this is the direction the web is moving towards in general. I don't think Bioware/EA will be the ones doing this though - their loss, but they're not known for taking risks. In all likelihood I'd expect a Korean studio to do this, then have it translated into English.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Aelis Eine, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               I agree, I think premium modules could definitely be a contributing factor for sustainability.

Selling virtual goodies walks a fine line between free to play (F2P), and pay to win (P2W), but if it was handled properly it would not have to compromise the F2P ideal.

Aelis, you have an interesting concept, and I think you’re on to something, that being sustainability would be the product of multiple facets.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PlasmaJohn]

               There have been several examples of virtual world toolkits with developer supplied hosting.  The problem with them has been that every last one have adopted the games publisher/record company attitude of demanding an exorbitant amount of any gross revenues.  Multiverse (http://www.multiverse.net) found out the hard way that this attitude doesn't work in the long run.  In some cases they expect the worlds to be charging players $15/month or more (2nd Life private islands, ActiveWorlds)

Another pitfall to be wary of is system reputation.  Second Life is viewed by many as a red-light district.

When a single entity has all of the profit motive, then they act to maximize thier own benefit.  So you get stuff like percentage of revenue fees or periodic fees way out of touch with reality.  Or worse, you get usage restrictions (thouh shalt only run on our hosting, thou shalt be family friendly, etc.). 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against anybody making a profit.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I just want to see the profit motive work for me.  I want to see a system that allows for multiple independent content and hosting providers.  This lets everybody focus on their core competency and are motivated to do their best work instead of working to lock people in.

The game client and server are more infrastructure products.  These are ripe for an Open Source effort akin to the Apache web server.  Maybe the independent suppliers can collaborate on or subsidize its development.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par PlasmaJohn, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:21 .