The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)

[Legacy_Urk]

               Yeah... I'm not reading that.

MM: Where did you get the stats on this "average gamer" you keep citing? I tried to Google the figures and couldn't find any actual research on the subject. Personally I don't know anyone that spends that much money on new games, but I'm old. Most of my friends wait until the game is down to 20 bucks before buying, and then we play it for a few months before we get bored and move on to something else.

Except NWN of course. I'll be playing that until I die.

I will concede that such players exist, however, and I DO see a HUGE difference between people who overspend on new titles and people who flush their money down the MMO toilet.

The difference is that each game offers new assets, new art, a new experience, and employs a different team of designers and merchants. Each game offers VALUE.

WebShaman wrote...

That said, I am still boggling at the amount of revenue that WoW is sucking in. It is a huge amount for a game, occuring on a regular basis. I still cannot fathom how anyone can claim that they are anywhere near getting back in value for pay-to-play in comparison to the play-for-free model.

Actually I think you'll find an increasing number of P2P MMO players would agree with that.

MMOs are particularly pernicious in that most people aren't paying for the value of the game, they are playing for the value of the time they've invested in playing it. After spending months or years grinding on and developing a toon the time invested takes on a value of it's own. You don't want to give up your character and "possetions" because you worked so hard to get them.

That's the true genius of P2P. They have actually found a way to get people to pay them to add value to the game for them.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Oh, please edit your
post....its ridiculusly long and I think we will still get it if you
remove most of that mastodont quote....no one is saying that WoW players
are dumb....at least I am not....I would just like a more NWN1 looking
game more...

Actually, Lazarus said

"I would be shocked if building (and playing) a WOW toon were nearly as complex as building and playing a NWN 1 toon."

So...yeah.  But I removed it.

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

1) Game is designed to be viewed from different camera angles and distances than WoW. Giving strategical overview in combat, more of a pen and paper feeling when moving around...versus WoW which gives more a first person shooter feeling.
2) It uses the superior D&D system almost to full extent. Combat is more slow paced and strategical.
3) ...and maybe most importantly....the game is designed around roleplaying in a way WoW isn't. Like I said...its more slow paced and playing as a team is usually very important...especially in low levels .... very unlike WoW...where level 1's are mindless bots that never communicate...anyway....you have to rest to replenish spells also and usually have more business back to town than in WoW where you usually meet the other players and so on....

1. Er, I play scrolled further out in WoW than I do in NWN.  Where are you getting the impression WoW is like a first person shooter instead of strategic/tactical?

2. This video doesn't look strategical?  What exactly do you mean by strategical?  And I am seriously curious, why do you consider D&D combat mechanics to be superior?

3. Playing as a team is essential in any of the serious end game content (raids, arenas, rated battlegrounds, or dungeons).  Why do you think it's important that the first few levels in an online game are very tedious and slow?  I mean, if the *entire* game is supposed to be that slow-paced, sure, but otherwise shouldn't the first few levels be easier and introduce the player to the game and controls?   But no, the game isn't designed around roleplaying.

Urk wrote...

MM: Where did you get the stats on this "average gamer" you keep citing? I tried to Google the figures and couldn't find any actual research on the subject. Personally I don't know anyone that spends that much money on new games, but I'm old. Most of my friends wait until the game is down to 20 bucks before buying, and then we play it for a few months before we get bored and move on to something else.

Assuming you're talking about spending habits and not the age thing, right?

Trying to find something more than random anecdotes currently, but here's a figure you might find interesting.

Americans spent $3.8 billion on MMOs during 2009.

Meanwhile, the total amount spent on video games overall by Americans?  $25.3 billion.

Anf if you look at this handy chart...



You'll notice that MMO's only comprise about 8% of total revenue.  Obviously 8% of $25.3 billion is $2.02 billion and not $3.8 billion, but both figures indicate MMOs are a small segment of the overall video game market.  And especially for console gamers, who spent roughly four times more than PC games.

In short, you could make every MMO simply vanish, including WoW, and it would barely scratch the video game revenue of the USA.

Urk wrote...

The difference is that each game offers new assets, new art, a new experience, and employs a different team of designers and merchants. Each game offers VALUE.

Each patch in WoW offers new assets, new art, and a new experience.  Doubly so for expansions.  I find that offers value, and I've yet to see another game that has high end PvE content like WoW.  Do you know of another game that has solid raiding?  Because NWN certainly doesn't, and both SWTOR and Rift has terrible knock-offs of WoW raiding, basically where WoW was years ago.

And even if I liked SWTOR and Rift's raiding, both require a subscription as far as I'm aware, so it's not like I'm suddenly saving a ton of money.

In short, WoW is unique in that it offers me what I want, and I'm willing to pay for it.

Urk wrote...

MMOs are particularly pernicious in that most people aren't paying for the value of the game, they are playing for the value of the time they've invested in playing it. After spending months or years grinding on and developing a toon the time invested takes on a value of it's own. You don't want to give up your character and "possetions" because you worked so hard to get them.

That's the true genius of P2P. They have actually found a way to get people to pay them to add value to the game for them.

Isn't that true of any MMO or PW, regardless of the payment model?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 août 2012 - 07:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Ok, my bad MM, you got me. Basically WOW is a NWN knock off, with less diversity and modability, and yet pay to play, and even worse pay to win.

You have 9 classes, we have 22. You can specialize, we can multiclass.

In effect WOW, has half of the capability of NWN, and was a beautiful knock off, and yet 10x the earning potential, mostly because of it’s marketing, and P2P and pay to win (and get paid to play) dynamics.

Tell me? Can you make a mod on WOW where assassins use intelligence for AB and AC? We can. Can you make a mod where people need to get food and water to survive? We can. Can you do a 1000 other amazing things modders of NWN 1 have been able to do, and share it in a multiplayer format? We can. Can you create an environment that is completely to your own liking, and what you would like to see in such a game? We can.

It’s true, I am no WOW expert, but I do know one thing for damn sure. WOW is no NWN 1, and NWN 1 is no WOW. Thank goodness for that.

My only hope, in this regard, is we might see a modern day equivalent of NWN 1. What is your hope?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

MM said :

WoW gives quite a few types of entertainment.

1, leveling, which many people find fun in and of itself.  As I said, it can easily take 100+ hours to level a character, and then you can start another.
2, dungeons, which are 5 man PvE content designed to be done in 30-60 minutes
3, raids, which are 10-25 player PvE content that is designed to be completed over the course of months with difficult bosses and the best rewards.  This is what I play the game for
4. Looking for Raid, an automated and drastically easier version of raids with worse rewards to let bad players or players with chaotic schedules see the lore of the raids
5. Battlegrounds, both just random PvP or in rated and ranked teams (10-40 person content) which is focused on objectives
6. Arenas, which is either 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 deathmatch PvP
7. Social experience.  Many people like WoW just because they interact with people, they like being in an online world
8. Vanity/cosmetic items, such as pets, mounts, banners, and such which can be earned
9. Reputation and daily questing, working your way into the graces of various factions and helping change the world
10. Achievements, which can give you nerd points for doing other stuff in specific ways

And scenarios, which are 3 person very obective focused PvE content, are going to be released soon as well.  No traditional tank or healer required for these, very dynamic.

Saying these are all the same thing is like saying watching TV is watching TV.  They appeal to very different audiences.

No, what you are describing is what one gets for *one* subscribed channel - various different shows all based on the same *theme*.

You are not getting different MMOs based on different themes (like WoW, Rifts, Warhammer, etc all in one).

The biggest difference between WoW MMO style and NWN IMHO (apart from the RP aspect) is that I can add content to NWN at my fancy.  Thus, when including, say, the PRC, my choice of classes, Races, etc increase exponentially - something one cannot do with WoW MMO style games.

I can even set up my PW like this - as long as my Players have access to the content needed to play.

This ability to "tailor-make" NWN to one's own preference, is, IMHO, the biggest difference there is between the two styles.  And it is free-to-play.

Urk said :

MMOs are particularly pernicious in that most people aren't paying for the value of the game, they are playing for the value of the time they've invested in playing it. After spending months or years grinding on and developing a toon the time invested takes on a value of it's own. You don't want to give up your character and "possetions" because you worked so hard to get them.

That's the true genius of P2P. They have actually found a way to get people to pay them to add value to the game for them.

Ahhh...now we are starting to get somewhere!  Now this bit of text describes exactly what I have been hearing from "burn-out" suffering ex-WoWers.  Especially the bit of text from MM describing typical hardcore Clan/Guild behavior and expectations.

You have high pressure from peers to play, and the "value factor" that keeps building up the longer you play, that keeps you from being able to quit.

Interesting.

I am now beginning to understand the references used to "crack" here, used by some who have quit WoW.

So why would anyone want to do this to themselves?

Play NWN, where you have a .bic of your online Character that you can play offline with when you get fed up (or whatever) playing online.  Granted, you will probably not be able to take that Character to another PW - but you could try to recreate it (assuming it is possible).  

One thing I do wish to discuss a bit here with MM - you say you can reach max level in, what, 100+ hours of play in WoW??!!

That is pretty quick!

So...that is obviously under a month ala $15.  So what do you do with your...time after that?  Items gathering?  Or are the raids really made for those who have maxed?  And I suppose the only feeling of accomplishment is "beating" the raid-made boss, right (besides whatever item(s) one receives)?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Ok, my bad MM, you got me. Basically WOW is a NWN knock off, with less diversity and modability, and yet pay to play, and even worse pay to win.

What?  The whole point of the P2P is that it is NOT P2W.  Where in the world are you getting that?  There is ZERO money you can spend to give you an advantage in-game.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

You have 9 classes, we have 22. You can specialize, we can multiclass.

There is more difference between the three specializations of Warrior in WoW than between  Fighter, Barbarian, Weapon Master, and Dwarven Defender.  It would practically be apt to say "WoW has 34 classes, NWN has 22 classes and can multiclass."

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Tell me? Can you make a mod on WOW where assassins use intelligence for AB and AC? We can. Can you make a mod where people need to get food and water to survive? We can. Can you do a 1000 other amazing things modders of NWN 1 have been able to do, and share it in a multiplayer format? We can. Can you create an environment that is completely to your own liking, and what you would like to see in such a game? We can.

It’s true, I am no WOW expert, but I do know one thing for damn sure. WOW is no NWN 1, and NWN 1 is no WOW. Thank goodness for that.

My only hope, in this regard, is we might see a modern day equivalent of NWN 1. What is your hope?

No, the only thing you can customize in WoW is your user interface (which you can completely change, unlike NWN).  WoW is like an extremely high quality NWN PW with a specific ruleset.  If you want a different ruleset, you need to find a different game.

In regards to your last question, I'm pretty sure I'm on record multiple times as saying I would absolutely love to get a game with the toolset of NWN that has a decent combat engine.  That would be amazing.  The best combat engine I know of currently in WoW, but if they come up with something better I'd be all ears.

So yes, a modern day equivalent of NWN 1 would be amazing.

WebShaman wrote...

No, what you are describing is what one gets for *one* subscribed channel - various different shows all based on the same *theme*.

Eh, not really.  You have...

1. History Channel (lore and archaeology style things)
2. Discovery Channel (exploration and questing)
3. Sports Channel (PvP, including BGs, Rated BGs, and Arenas)
4. Team Obstacle Courses (PvE, including Dungeons and Raids)
5. Reality shows (social playing and guild drama and such)

Etc.  They're all based in WoW, sure, but the shows would be from different channels.

WebShaman wrote...

The biggest difference between WoW MMO style and NWN IMHO (apart from the RP aspect) is that I can add content to NWN at my fancy.  Thus, when including, say, the PRC, my choice of classes, Races, etc increase exponentially - something one cannot do with WoW MMO style games.

I can even set up my PW like this - as long as my Players have access to the content needed to play.

This ability to "tailor-make" NWN to one's own preference, is, IMHO, the biggest difference there is between the two styles.  And it is free-to-play.

Oh, absolutely.  And it's why I still play and build in NWN.

WebShaman wrote...

So why would anyone want to do this to themselves?

Play NWN, where you have a .bic of your online Character that you can play offline with when you get fed up (or whatever) playing online.  Granted, you will probably not be able to take that Character to another PW - but you could try to recreate it (assuming it is possible).

Why would anyone join a competitive team that has regularly scheduled practices and games?  If you want to be an important part of a team you need to be reliable.

If you just want to fiddle around on your own or do shorter dungeons (which even have an automated tool for making groups easier to find for casual players), you're free to do so!  Never have to join a raiding or PvP guild with attendance expectations.

But if you want the social and competitive team environment?  You have to commit.

WebShaman wrote...

One thing I do wish to discuss a bit here with MM - you say you can reach max level in, what, 100+ hours of play in WoW??!!

That is pretty quick!

I admit I find this amusing.

The original campaign was touted as, what, like 40 hours?  And SoU and HoT as 20 hours each?  Mass Effect 2 and 3 probably average about 30 hours per playthrough if you do everything and Mass Effect 1 was a bit longer.

So, just as a basis of comparison, we're saying $60 for a 30 hour game is worth it but 100+ hours a month for $15 is a terrible deal.  And this is ignoring the fact most people probably take longer to level and the "serious" game doesn't even start until maximum level.  Unlike DnD, which, as I understand, generally doesn't revolve around max level players.

WebShaman wrote...

So...that is obviously under a month ala $15.  So what do you do with your...time after that?  Items gathering?  Or are the raids really made for those who have maxed?  And I suppose the only feeling of accomplishment is "beating" the raid-made boss, right (besides whatever item(s) one receives)?

If it takes 120 hours to level (semi-randomly picking number that probably is reasonably accurate for a decent but not amazing player, so they aren't being perfectly efficient or anything), that would require 30 hours a week to reach max level in a month.  If you're new to the game, I'd expect closer to 200 hours since you're figuring everything out and probably are "wasting" a lot of time exploring and just looking at things.  So if you play one hour a day on average, you're looking at about seven months for your first character to hit max level.  If you play two hours a day (14 hours a week on average), that would be three to four months.

I just went ahead and looked at a character I leveled up this expansion.  I wasn't trying to powerlevel, but I went reasonably quickly and had an experience bonus that you can earn for alternate characters when you're maximum level.  It took me 102 hours.  So yeah, 200+ hours for a newer player would probably be accurate.

Yes, the raids are really made for those at maximum level, you can't even enter the current raids if you aren't at the current level cap.  People do a lot of things at maximum level (many of which do involve getting more powerful items in some fashion):

1. Battlegrounds
2. Rated Battlegrounds/Arena (Competitive PvP)
3. Dungeons/LFR
4. Raids (Competivie PvE)
5. Daily Quests and Reputation
6. Achievement hunting (ranging from exploration to collecting mounts/pets to participating in World Events)

I love raiding.  It's why I play.  We have our own guild site here, but there's a lot more to it than that.  For example, there's a site called WoWProgress which tracks raiding guilds world-wide, and there's a lot of prestige to being highly ranked.  Our page is here, which shows that during this last set of raid bosses we finished about 700th in the entire world while playing two nights a week.  There are over 60,000 raiding guilds in the world, and those guilds still only comprise at most like 20-30% of the playerbase.

Each time a new set of bosses comes out we compete for rankings.  On the previous set, for example, we were closer to 500th world (we fell behind another two night a week guild by two weeks, and they were ranked 300th...that two week period is the jump from 300th to 700th).  Higher rankings, especially compared to the few other stellar two night a week guilds, help us find the recruits we need to maintain our roster.

And the content itself is very difficult.  We've tried bosses over 150 times before finally beating them.  The video I linked earlier is from the top guild in the world at the time, and they had over 500 attempts before winning.  Yes, the best guild in the world still took over 500 tries before the guild won a single time.

And it's not fake difficulty, like "Oh, you didn't have X item which gives 100% fire immunity and thus you instantly die."  It's execution, coordination, maximizing DPS and minimizing damage taken, communication, and so much more.  It's what I love about WoW.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 août 2012 - 06:20 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Ok, my bad MM, you got me. Basically WOW is a NWN knock off, with less diversity and modability, and yet pay to play, and even worse pay to win.

You have 9 classes, we have 22. You can specialize, we can multiclass.

In effect WOW, has half of the capability of NWN, and was a beautiful knock off, and yet 10x the earning potential, mostly because of it’s marketing, and P2P and pay to win (and get paid to play) dynamics.

Tell me? Can you make a mod on WOW where assassins use intelligence for AB and AC? We can. Can you make a mod where people need to get food and water to survive? We can. Can you do a 1000 other amazing things modders of NWN 1 have been able to do, and share it in a multiplayer format? We can. Can you create an environment that is completely to your own liking, and what you would like to see in such a game? We can.

It’s true, I am no WOW expert, but I do know one thing for damn sure. WOW is no NWN 1, and NWN 1 is no WOW. Thank goodness for that.

My only hope, in this regard, is we might see a modern day equivalent of NWN 1. What is your hope?

What are yo utrying to prove Lazarus? That NWN is better than WoW or that players playing WoW are stupid than those playing NWN?

This is bs. There are valid reason to play each game, it does not make the player any dumb to play that. Same debate could be started over playing roleplaying NWN servers and action-based NWN servers.

It looks to me as the usual preconceptions about peoples playing computer games at all.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               LOL why does everybody get so riled up over me having an opinion. Yes I think NWN 1 is better than WOW, and yes I think it is stupid to pay to play a game you paid to buy, and further more supporting/encourging that does us the consumers no good. And trying to prove? Or the point of all this? I think I have made that clear multiple times, what my intensions are.

MM, wow, I can't believe you actually agreed with me on something. However aside from that it is worth noting, 3x9= 27, but regardless, that is still nothing compared to the diversity of builds you can achieve with NWN 1. Back in the day I was part of a character build group, and there are literally 100's of builds. And that doesn't even include the expansion on that from community contributed classes as Web Shaman mentioned. Now multiply that by the fact that many PWs are highly customized, in many regards, including how classes are handled. So a build that might work well on one world might not on another. It adds a whole other dimension of challange to the player, not only to learn how to make a good build, but also how to adapt it to the world you are playing on. As I said playing a nwn 1 character, is a whole lot more challanging than playing a WOW toon.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 30 août 2012 - 08:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

MM, wow, I can't believe you actually agreed with me on something.

Despite what you and Urk may think (or maybe not, I'd hate to put words in your mouth), I'm not disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and I'm not here to troll people.  I still like playing NWN, which is why I read and post on this forum.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

However aside from that it is worth noting, 3x9= 27

There were 9 classes at launch in WoW.  There were no prestige classes in the original NWN.

At this point, there are 11 classes (counting Monks in one month) with 34 specialization (Druids have four specializations) in WoW.  And there are prestige classes in NWN.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

but regardless, that is still nothing compared to the diversity of builds you can achieve with NWN 1. Back in the day I was part of a character build group, and there are literally 100's of builds. And that doesn't even include the expansion on that from community contributed classes as Web Shaman mentioned.

There may be hundreds of possible builds, but the vast majority of them are either virtually identical or mechanically inferior.  Whether you go 12 Fighter/25 WM/3 Rogue or 10 Fighter/28 WM/2 Rogue or something similar is a matter of optimization, not valid choice.  And while it's certainly possible to play an inferior build, Blizzard doesn't think new players should be lured into a trap like that and have decided to focus on a "smaller " number (read: 34 very distinct "builds) and make them all equally valid (or at least as much as they can, which is usually within a few percent).

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Now multiply that by the fact that many PWs are highly customized, in many regards, including how classes are handled. So a build that might work well on one world might not on another. It adds a whole other dimension of challange to the player, not only to learn how to make a good build, but also how to adapt it to the world you are playing on. As I said playing a nwn 1 character, is a whole lot more challanging than playing a WOW toon.

I'd agree with all but the last statement.  And the thing is, all of those take place before making the character (or should).  So you could argue that *building* a NWN character for a specific environment and having to know all sorts of stuff to even start playing is harder, sure.  But in terms of optimizing at max level?  Actually gearing correctly, worrying about the half dozen different stats (and stuff like haste plateaus and hit caps), and executing the playstyle is *far* harder than NWN.  That part isn't even close.

I'd certainly agree it's harder to get started in NWN.  And having to know all sorts of stuff ahead of time to effectively build the character.  Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion.  But in terms of mechanically executing and playing correctly once the character is built?  WoW is harder.  Optimizing gear and talents (feats)?  WoW is harder.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 août 2012 - 11:12 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Well on that MM we may have to agree, to disagree.

I have to say though, although I have made my intentions perfectly clear (trying to spark a discussion about how we could have a next gen game akin to NWN 1, and how to preserve what is good about NWN 1, and yet provide a developer with incentive for producing such a game.) It’s those who are in opposition to this idea who have not made their intentions clear.

Sure you may have been offended by some of my opinions, and remarks, but the ideas I presented are the heart of the message I was trying to get across. I apologize if I have offended anyone, but my opinions remain the same, as do the ideas I tried to spark a discussion about.

So if everybody is done having their feelings hurt, how bout some people actually coming forward (as a few already have), and contribute something meaningful to this brainstorming session (as some already have), rather than wallow in the pettiness? So far we have 2 or 3 pages of meaningful discussion, and 4 or 5 of, as you so rightly put it Shadooow B.S. (of which I am a guilty contributor as well.)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Magical Master]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I have to say though, although I have made my intentions perfectly clear (trying to spark a discussion about how we could have a next gen game akin to NWN 1, and how to preserve what is good about NWN 1, and yet provide a developer with incentive for producing such a game.) It’s those who are in opposition to this idea who have not made their intentions clear.

Who's in opposition to the idea?  I guess SuperFly_200?

"Just want to clear up some misconceptions here. It looks like many people think that ALL people think that an NWN1-like game HAS to have private servers. Here is where I don't agree and hopefully some others with me. What I am really waiting for is a NWN1 like game with one or a couple of company owned "large PW's" (or what to call them)."

Don't think anyone else wouldn't want a second NWN1 with updated mechanics and combat engine.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Well on that MM we may have to agree, to disagree.

Why?

I mean, if you said "Red is a better color than blue" we could certainly disagree, but that's because it's entirely subjective.

How is the question of whether the countless NWN builds are mostly either insignificant differences or flat out inferior such a subjective question?  Surely you're not going to claim that 10 F/28 WM/2 Rogue versus 12 F/25 WM/3 Rogue play differently?  One of the two is going to be superior in an environment and both play identically regardless (assuming they're both strength builds or something, there's obviously other factors, but again you can figure out the optimal build).  Isn't that a question that definitely has a right or wrong answer?

Same thing with the question of which is harder to play.  Isn't there a objective answer about whether it's harder to play a NWN character or a WoW character?  I'm sure you'd agree that it's far harder to play a spellcaster under default rules than a fighter-type, for example, right?  If we can break that down and analyze it, why can't we do the same thing across two games?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Magical Master, 31 août 2012 - 12:17 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Squatting Monk]

               Since the discussion has started drifting into whether the D&D ruleset is superior to WoW's...

IMO, the hardcoding of the ruleset is one of the biggest shortcomings of NWN. If we were to see a new NWN-like game, I'd actually rather see it un-tethered from the D&D rules. It'd be nice to mod it to run any way you like, and it would allow it to appeal to a larger audience, too. Want an MMO-style combat system? You can do it. Want something similar to Diablo? You can do it. Prefer D&D 4e, 3.5, or even earlier? You can do it.

It would be a great way to get sub-communities going, too. Competition and collaboration to meet the desires of the larger community? That sounds like something everyone could get behind.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               

Magical Master wrote...

Who's in opposition to the idea?  I guess SuperFly_200?

Actually, no Superfly has made some thoughtful, and on topic contributions to this discussion, regardless of whether or not he agrees with my own particular idea. I respect him for actually having something meaningful to contribute. Nice try trying to start some beef though. It's people who only want to foccus on the bickering and the negatives, and those who constantly want to derail the core of the topic that I don't see as being constructive participants in this dialog, and question their intensions.

Magical Master wrote...

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Well on that MM we may have to agree, to disagree.

Why?

Because I don't feel like perpetuating this endless argument with you, of which obviously neither of us is going to be persuaded by. If you think there are 100's of nwn 1 builds, and they are not that different from each other (which is true in some cases, but not the majority as you are trying to make it seem), than you don't know much about character building in NWN 1.

Now if you have something actually constructive to contribute to the heart of this topic, that I would be interested to hear. And thanks to everyone else who have voiced their constructive input.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 31 août 2012 - 05:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               

Squatting Monk wrote...

Since the discussion has started drifting into whether the D&D ruleset is superior to WoW's...

IMO, the hardcoding of the ruleset is one of the biggest shortcomings of NWN. If we were to see a new NWN-like game, I'd actually rather see it un-tethered from the D&D rules. It'd be nice to mod it to run any way you like, and it would allow it to appeal to a larger audience, too. Want an MMO-style combat system? You can do it. Want something similar to Diablo? You can do it. Prefer D&D 4e, 3.5, or even earlier? You can do it.

It would be a great way to get sub-communities going, too. Competition and collaboration to meet the desires of the larger community? That sounds like something everyone could get behind.

I like the D&D ruleset (for the most part), but your right a more open, and dynamic one would be much more flexable. A brilliant idea.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Squatting Monk]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

If you think there are 100's of nwn 1 builds, and they are not that different from each other (which is true in some cases, but not the majority as you are trying to make it seem), than you don't know much about character building in NWN 1.

That's rather uncharitable, considering your shaky knowledge of WoW classes and mechanics.

One of the things to remember is that the D&D ruleset and that of WoW and most other MMOs have completely different aims. D&D aims for flavor and to allow the building of particular archetypes. There is a lot of overlap between builds, but that's a feature, not a bug. Multiclassing allows one to pick up characteristics of a different archetype. The more you invest in Rogue, the more rogue-ish you are. The more you invest in Fighter, the more fighter-ish you are. A Rogue 18/Fighter22 is not going to be much different from a Rogue 22/Fighter 18. Each build will be more capable of some things than the other. However, a Rogue 36/Fighter 4 is going to be much different than a Rogue 4/Fighter 36 because they are more invested in their respective archetypes.

You could imagine any given class combination as lying somewhere on a sliding scale between the archetypes. Slide in direction A, get more A-ish. Slide in direction B, get more B-ish.

An MMO-style system is typically aimed at optimizing for a particular in-game role. You decide what role you want to play (typically, Tank, DPS, or healer, though there are other possibilities) and choose your class and specs according to that role. You may choose to diversify your build, allowing you to fulfill multiple roles, or you may decide to focus on doing one thing really well. The mechanics are typically set up to allow for active, fast-paced combat. Player skill is typically tied to learning optimum specs, equipment sets, and combat rotations, as well as decreasing reaction time and (most important for high-level play) learning to work well with others.

Some MMO systems (Guild Wars was a good example) straddle the line between archetype and game role.

So the NWN system and the WoW system have different goals, and, I think, they achieve those goals very well (though that's not to say either is perfect, of course; there's always room for improvement). I think it's silly to argue which one is better, per se. However, it's perfectly reasonable to say, "System X matches the way I enjoy playing more than System Y does."
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Squatting Monk, 31 août 2012 - 04:39 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               I never claimed to be a perfect person.

"I'm no heroine" - Ani Difranco

Oh and to the toon hacker who visited my PW tonight... "I am not a pretty girl" -also by Ani Difranco

Gotta love it when people hate on you for just speaking your mind, or from your heart.

System X matches the way I enjoy playing more than System Y does.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 31 août 2012 - 05:07 .