Author Topic: The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)  (Read 7046 times)

Legacy_WebShaman

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2012, 10:58:28 am »


               Oh yeah, one more thing I wanted to ask about WoW (and MMOs in particular) - does the world react dynamically to what the Player's character does?

I know that good NWN RP servers do.  It is something that I find to be very unique to the NWN experience IMHO.  As someone who has been on a number of PW Staffs, I know that this type of thing occurs quite frequently (especially for the DMs running storylines, etc).  Does this happen on WoW?

Do Clans actually affect the WoW universe (or whatever it is called?).  Or is it really just a big PG sandbox, with most of the the stuff being static quests, items, lootz (that is the right term, right?), etc?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2012, 02:39:53 pm »


               Web, I am a fellow non-WoW person, so I can't answer the specifics of how they release material and how people play. No doubt someone else can shed some light on that.

But, I don't think looking at the gross revenue stream and comparing it to something like NWN PWs really captures the value picture, in terms of the entertainment WoW players are getting for their subscription dollar. For sure, Blizzard has expenses. There are scaling costs in the sense that the WoW server architecture must handle millions of players (dozens of millions of characters in the DB) and potentially (I am guessing) half a million or so online at once during peak times, times when it's most important to provide a lag-free experience. So, the costs of having that hardware and software running (and ready to run) 24/7 are not going to be trivial. Blizzard is listed on wikipedia (FWIW) as having 4+  thousand employees a couple years ago. I don't know what they all do, but I don't suspect that compensation costs run toward a couple hundred million annually. But, even if that whole billion got sent to shareholders every year, that wouldn't mean WoW subscribers aren't getting their money's worth. That's really something each consumer determines. It could be they are, in aggregate, getting $2 billion worth of entertainment. It's a big number, but that value is inherently subjective.

Anyway, the real point I wanted to make is about comparing numbers. Looking at the gross revenue estimate of ~$1 billion per year and wondering does Blizzard provide that level of entertainment value to their subscribers is likely to miss the reality because it's a big number and it's one with which we have few useful benchmarks in this realm. How does one gauge how much value several million people are getting out of that experience? The problem is that our mental benchmarks for entertainment value tend to exist on a per person level. That is, I buy video games one at a time, I go to the theater to see one movie at a time, I buy one (give or take) ticket to a sporting event at a time, etc. That's why looking at entertainment on a per person basis gives a better feel because that's where our experience with this stuff is.

Here's an example: Roughly 90 million homes in the U.S. have cable or satellite and are paying roughly $50/month for the "entertainment" part of the package, that's not counting internet/phone/etc. and before government-mandated fees. So, that's over $50 billion a year that subscribers are paying to cable companies. That's a huge number, and it's worth remembering that 1) a big chunk of that isn't for original programming, since most all the movies and TV were paid for before they hit cable and 2) that big number isn't even counting the advertising revenue which pays for much of the content before any subscriber fees are collected. So, are the cable companies providing $50 billion in entertainment value? The number is too big to get a feel for it. But, I know that I chose several years ago not to pay for cable because it wasn't worth it to me and my girlfriend has Netflix anyway. But, to those cable subscribers, the $50 a month is a willing purchase. For sure it's cheaper by the hour than going to the movies. But it's more than WoW or most subscriber games.

Now, don't get me wrong. I really think that the value NWN players (either as PW players or SP module players) is phenomenal. I certainly would have a hard time coming up with any game that gives me so much for what's drifting down to under a penny per day at this point. But, just because I feel like I am getting a better value for my initial investment than the WoW subscribers, that doesn't mean they aren't getting their money's worth. With regard to the overall theme of the thread, I can't say where MMOs will be in a few years, but I certainly believe it's possible to provide an entertainment value worth $15/month to gamers. Whether that's what they will be paying for what's out there in the future, who knows?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_PlasmaJohn

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2012, 05:55:20 pm »


               I can offer a datapoint.  Bandwidth, power and climate control for 9 game servers: ~US$160/mo. (self-hosted).  Our webhosting adds another US$60/mo.  All of these costs are covered by player donations.

Some of our configuration will sound a bit insane without context.  If you don't care feel free to skip to the next paragraph '<img'>.  Avlis has been running pretty much since NWN launched.  It originally ran on cast-off desktop machines running a variety of OS versions (WinXP, Win2k, Vista [blech]. Remote administration was hell).  At our peak we
had 11 game servers, but had to decommission two due to hardware failure.  In 2009 the founders moved on and management was passed on to a new group that asked me to make a hosting recommendation.

In 2009 we still had a decent player population across most of our 9 remaining servers.  I built out an ESXi "cluster-in-a-box".  Since I was sort of new to virtualization, I had to rev. the configuration twice until we got to our current setup.  Avlis runs two physical machines, a database/vault server with hw RAID controller (1Gb of storage, 4x500gb drives, 3xRAID5, 1xHot Spare) and an 8-core, 24Gb ESXi server running 11 VMs: 9 production NWN servers, 1 QA NWN server and 1 MSID registration server.  All VM's are running 32-bit Ubuntu Server 8.04.  The vault server is running 64-bit Ubuntu Server 9.04.  [looking to upgrade both to 12.04 soonish].

Those two machines live in an A/C'd room in my garage due to noise and heat.  They have their own Internet uplink on business-class cable with static IP.  Using a colo service in 2009 would have been phenomenally expensive.  I just checked with one place and they'd want ~US$200-250/mo. for our setup.  That's co-located (self supplied servers).  "Cloud" solutions would run us ~$500/mo.  We barely hit $200/mo if the AC is running full blast.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_ehye_khandee

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2012, 06:15:20 pm »


               ON that note, we host (and have done so for five plus years) on a dedicated server in a data center. We've had almost no down time, hardware that fails is replaced within about 30 minutes of notice being issued. Redundant power and internet connections, static IP, Linux on a robust machine means pretty much the server is 24/7. Cost is about $80 a month and can actually handle five servers (tho we run but one atm we have two others in dev). Security and stability are key features of this setup.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

NWN Server 66.232.100.90

Web Home: http://playnwn.com
               
               

               
            

Legacy_SHOVA

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2012, 08:15:21 pm »


               I'll go out on the limb, and state that WoW has probably never had 7 million pay to play members on the same month.

The more realistic way to look at this is they probably had a million paying, and another million using the free month. Then like with most PWs, the players came and went. new People started the paying, newer ones started the free month, and before you knew it, WoW was advertising we have 7 million players! Sounds a lot like some of the PW admins here, that like to jack up the numbers to get interest.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Lazarus Magni

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2012, 09:31:04 pm »


               I think it’s clear from what plasma john wrote, to run a serious PW, self hosting really isn’t free. And those numbers don’t even include the initial investment, and maintenance investment. It’s also clear it does take a fair level of technical expertise. There is a reason serious PW owners who self host, are very tech savy, if not full blown IT professionals. And again, this is the result of over 10 years of PW owners adapting to this circumstance (pay for hosting [more expensive perhaps in the long run] vs self hosting [more expensive initially, but perhaps less in the long run, or comparable]).

Ehye, pretty much summed up the virtues of paying for hosting. I pay for hosting, because I don’t have the hardware nor software technical expertise to set it up, the money for the initial investment, the IT knowledge for security, ect…

From what both of you guys said, it is also clear a significant amount of money is involved in hosting. And Bioware missed out (and is still missing out) on all of this. Paying for hosting runs from 500$ a month, down to as cheap as what I use (ad-sl.com) where I pay 30$/mo for 20 slots (I think it’s 24$ for 16 slots min, and as MM mentioned it’s like 45$/mo for 30 slots. I am not sure what the max number of slots are.) Now there are limitations to my host, for example, if I needed a cloud server for multiple virtual servers, I would have had to go with something like Rakspace which was on the order of 200-400$/mo if IRC. Luckily for my needs I didn’t need that, and so ad-sl.com provided a reasonably priced and high quality alternative for me. I suppose this is why I can afford not to be donation based. (And I would like to reiterate my support for that being allowed, with the cost of hosting there is no reason a PW community should not be allowed to voluntarily contribute to that, as long as it is donate to support, and not pay to win.)

So again, in light of the numbers that are coming forward, it seems apparent to me, a game developer could offer something that is free for players, open source like NWN 1 which has a 10 year proven track record of being able to maintain a community’s interest, and gain on-going (after game sales have dropped off) supplemental income from a hosting service which would give them incentive making such a game in the first place, and supporting it for the duration of it’s lifetime. It might not be the cash cow WoW is, but it wouldn’t be the cash black hole NWN 1 was either. They would make a lot of money off the sales of the game (and expansions), and it would never become something they would lose incentive for supporting, even after 10 years (since they would still be making money off it from hosting.)
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #126 on: August 27, 2012, 10:13:47 pm »


               I'll respond to more later, but...

SHOVA wrote...

I'll go out on the limb, and state that WoW has probably never had 7 million pay to play members on the same month.

The more realistic way to look at this is they probably had a million paying, and another million using the free month. Then like with most PWs, the players came and went. new People started the paying, newer ones started the free month, and before you knew it, WoW was advertising we have 7 million players! Sounds a lot like some of the PW admins here, that like to jack up the numbers to get interest.


No.  The number WoW gives is the number of active subscribed accounts*.  Now, some/many players have multiple paid accounts (and thus a separate subscription for each), but the peaks of 12 million on this graph are actually 12 million paid accounts.  It doesn't include anyone on the free started edition or anyone with an inactive account.

But even if 1/3 of the playerbase as its peak had a second account (as in paying $30ish per month), that's still 9 million different people with active accounts.

*Places in the East like China have different subscription models such as paying by the hour (something like $0.06 an hour or so I've heard in some cases).  It's also worth noting many places besides the US get WoW for the equivalent of less than $15 month even on a subscription, so you really can't say $15 x 12 million = $180 million a month.  I'd guess somewhere between $90-135 million (which is still a good chunk of change, of course).
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 27 août 2012 - 09:16 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Lazarus Magni

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #127 on: August 27, 2012, 11:27:40 pm »


               Numbers with out sources are meaningless. I could make a graph and have it show 10 million nwn players, would that make it true? But hey, here goes anyways...

http://www.gamefaqs....63698041?page=1

Oh and this is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia....rld_of_Warcraft
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #128 on: August 27, 2012, 11:57:23 pm »


               Are you saying that you think the graph is wrong in general or wrong about the 12 million accounts?

I mean, if you search "wow 12 million" the third result is this Forbes article.

The second result is Wikipedia, and if you search for "12 million" you'll find a sentence that then references this press release.

And the first result is a list of press releases in general.  On page 2 there's the press release I linked above.

I mean, this took me like 30 seconds to find, more time than it took me to write this post.  It's not like this is hard data to find if you think I'm wrong.

Incidentally, the graph is from this site.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 27 août 2012 - 10:57 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_SuperFly_2000

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #129 on: August 28, 2012, 12:24:16 am »


               Just want to clear up some misconceptions here. It looks like many people think that ALL people think that an NWN1-like game HAS to have private servers. Here is where I don't agree and hopefully some others with me. What I am really waiting for is a NWN1 like game with one or a couple of company owned "large PW's" (or what to call them).

I am definately not a fan of WoW or any of its clones but lets all agree on that WoW unfortunately is the biggest thing that has ever happened in computer gaming....
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #130 on: August 28, 2012, 01:25:40 am »


               Thanks PlasmaJohn, ehye_khandee, and Lazarus Magni for giving us some idea of what your hosting costs run! With some idea of the range of hosting costs (anywhere from $30 to $500 per month at the extremes), we can rough out some idea of a revenue stream for the idea, just making a few assumptions.

I am just pulling numbers out of the air, though I suspect they are pretty generous. Let's say there are 1000 PWs with a consistent member base - that's significantly more than there are currently, but we'll assume a high number to represent Bioware's continued involvement keeping interest up. (BTW, I am assuming it's Bioware who gets into the PW hosting business, but it could be someone else.) And we'll further say that 500 of those PWs are willing to pay for hosting and they can come up with $250 per month for Bioware hosting, which is a little higher than the folks who posted here say they are paying, but it's the cost of convenience and the Bioware name means something. That's $1.5 million/year in revenue. Given the assumptions made, that's likely an upper bound, but it's a number that entices one to look further into this.

Of course, that's just revenue, not profit. This kind of hosting is a hands-on, customer service business. The whole point of a PW paying Bioware to host their module is that Bioware would take care of the constant tech support, hardware maintenance and upgrades, network issues, etc. Running a server farm for 500 PWs is going to require several trained tech people to keep it running and keep up with normal support tickets. And, this is NWN PW hosting, so they have to be able to assist people setting up databases, upgrading modules, creating backups, and generally getting things running. And there would likely have to be a crew of people to keep the operation running 24/7, since you can't very well tell someone whose PW has crashed Friday night that tech support is out until Monday. I am going to guess it takes six employees to keep someone on hand to run the server farm and deal with support tickets around the clock. These guys are going to cost 75 to 100 grand a year each in total compensation (salaries, taxes, benefits, training, etc.). I will say one senior tech support manager at $100k and 5 staff at $75k. BTW, one could argue that it's possible to get away with fewer people and/or they can be doing double duty elsewhere and so on or even that they might work for less money. All possible - but keep in mind that if these folks feel like they are working like hasted gnomes and not getting sufficiently compensated, then turnover shoots up and you quickly lose whatever money was saved in added training costs for new people and low productivity.

Then, there is a need for someone to deal with billing, new accounts, closing accounts, and so on. That's probably a whole person, since 500 PW  customers can generate some paperwork and there will definitely be flux in the customer base as PWs come and go, though staffing for that doesn't have to be 24/7.

So, far we are looking at over $500k in compensation costs and we haven't bought any hardware yet nor rented a building to put it and our personnel in. And, of course, if we have 500 PWs running, maybe averaging 25 players online during peak time (the bandwidth has to handle the peaks), we will need a somewhat decent data pipe. I am thinking those 12,500 players are soaking in the neighborhood of 3 kbps each for a rough bandwidth requirement of almost 40 Mbps, but one of the PW admins here may have better numbers on that. Ultimately, that's not the biggest expense and it may be best to outsource the actual rack space itself, but that means less control over the system hardware, which may or may not be a disadvantage.  And, it has to be paid for regardless of where it sits.

Of course, ongoing advertising/promotion is needed and so on, but I won't try to estimate that and we'll just hope that PW players who become interested in building their own PW will be aware that Bioware can provide the hosting for them. There's probably a standard assumption for scaling overhead in this business, but I don't know it offhand. It seems likely there's another one or two hundred thou in personnel costs I haven't looked at. Also keep in mind that none of that is providing more content or development of game or server features, which require different people with different skills...

All in all, this is still too rough to judge, but I'd say the idea may well merit looking into by someone who has a solid handle on the numbers. Keep in mind that the revenue figures are pretty optimistic and the couple of costs I looked at may be low. Unfortunately, it wouldn't take much of a erosion of the revenue figures before the scenario loses viability.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MrZork, 28 août 2012 - 12:27 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Lazarus Magni

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #131 on: August 28, 2012, 02:16:14 am »


               Very valid points Mr. Zork. But your “liberal” estimates, seem rather conservative to me (and vice versa). As I mentioned a while back, still to this day, over 10 years after initial release there are over 100 action servers alone. And there are like 10 (?) other gaming categories? I would bet back during NWN 1’s peak (which mind you had very little marketing associated with it) there may have been 3-5k live servers. And, given how much on line gaming has grown since 2002, if you had a state of the art game which was like nwn 1 (i.e. PWs built by players (along with other content), free for players to play, ect…), with good marketing, it could be quite a bit more…

Also your analysis doesn’t take into account the long term look. You spelled out the up front cost (which seems quite high to me, especially when you are buying in “bulk” [I would assume like food that would lower the cost], but then I have no clue about that stuff really), however a lot of those will diminish (substantially) over time. My host for example, yes they had to hold my hand a bit getting me initially set up, but since then the amount of time spent on my PW by them has been minimal.

Laz

P.S. MM all I was saying is sources are important. And I found that first link I posted in that reply to be quite interesting. 9 mil subscriptions (if the sources are accurate, as Sova mentioned… it’s pretty easy to inflate things like this with out a 3rd party verifying), but how many active players?

P.P.S. Superfly, there is no reason bioware could not do that with this model too. Have some official PW's in addition to player built ones. Maybe some of the more talented PW developers might actually get hired for a real job doing it.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 28 août 2012 - 03:29 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Lazarus Magni

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #132 on: August 28, 2012, 04:43:48 am »


               Post, Post, Post Script (P.P.P.S.) One way this model could fail is due to the fact that some people like simple. A lot of people apparently (e.g. WOWers). "Who needs 22 classes, and multi class capability? 3 is so much simplier!" Personally I like games that make me wonder and think. "What would this build be like given the PW I want to apply it to?" But apparently people like simple. "I just want to replicate what a couple million other people have done." Did I say something about sheep? I totally apologize for having that opinion, that was totally unfounded.

Another factor of WOW's popularity has to do with who is paying for these subscriptions. "My son's best friend has wow, and his parents pay for the subscription so that's acceptable for me too." It's like buying your kid a new toy, you don't care there is something better out there, you don't even take the time to find that out, all you care about is your kid wants it. It doesn't matter if it's stupid, and there are better things. Your kid doesn't want the better thing, he want's the most popular thing.
Again I am a big jerk for thinking a lot of people are sheep. 9 million people can't possibly be wrong.

Apparently people also like the pay to play, pay to win, and get paid to play to help others win model. The market for selling accounts, and other such nonsense is big time. Why just have fun when you can get paid for doing it?

My bad... this was a stupid idea based on ideals.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #133 on: August 28, 2012, 05:09:20 am »


               LM, I'll admit that I had not heard about NWN back during its heyday, so my sense of these things is based on what I think is likely in today's environment. Of course, if Bioware/EA were to re-release the game (ignoring Atari/Hasbro and licensing issues) today using this sort of model and harness the full power of EA's marketing presence, then the numbers I used may indeed be fairly modest. However, marketing isn't cheap, either, and adding a few hundred thousand to the cost of the project may not be helpful unless it brings in hordes of new players and, at some point, new PWs. Would that happen in this market, which is fairly saturated with MMOs? It's hard to say. I agree with you that if Bioware had attempted something akin to what we are talking about here (with all of the marketing) back in 2003, then there might well be a much larger PW player base.

Meanwhile, if you look at the PW listings now, there is  still an impressive number of PWs around. But, most of them are pretty quiet the vast majority of the time. Which is fine, but I don't think that those guys compose the likely market for premium hosting. Another thing I didn't go into in the last post is that each PW has to have a pretty big player base if it is hoping to defray costs via small donations. You can do the math yourself, but suffice to say that a PW paying $250/month for hosting that has 15 players who are willing to ante up is basically asking those players to come up with more than they would pay to play WoW. And that's for each PW (not one donation to play on any of them). Not saying it wouldn't be worth it, but if our benchmark for unreasonably costly P2P games is WoW, then this indicates a potential fly in the ointment. Of course, if each PW has 100 donating players, then it's not such an issue...

I am not sure what you mean regarding the potential for savings by buying in bulk. I know about economies of scale, but no cost that I accounted for would go down by buying more of it. Most of the costs I looked at were labor costs, and hiring more people doesn't get much cheaper per person. (Well, it does in the overhead sense that the human resources department may not have to grow proportionately. But, a company like Bioware/EA already has a sizable HR department, so I wasn't adding any cost for that anyway.) Yes, there is some worthwhile discount to be gotten by buying computing hardware in bulk, but my estimates aren't high due to failure to account for those discounts because, as I said, I didn't add in the cost for hardware at all.

That said, there is something to be said for economies of scale in hosting. That is, you need a minimum crew to provide 24/7 support for hosting, but you need that crew for 10 PWs and that same level of staffing might take you up to several hundred PWs. That's likely part of the reason for Blizzard's success with WoW. Sure, they can claim an impressive accomplishment in keeping millions of gaming accounts active and (I am guessing) hundreds of thousands of gamers playing all at once during peak periods. But, if they are doing that with a small ratio of staff to players, so they can grow (as they have done) the player base tremendously and still have under 5000 employees.

As to the long-term view in terms of the time profile of resources that must be devoted to each PW owner to get him up and running: Yes, it's true that setup effort tends to be higher than ongoing effort for these things. However, I never added in the extra expenses for setup. I was estimating the ongoing costs and assuming the extra expenses to setup would average out over time or Bioware would have to charge a setup fee to cover those boosted initial expenses. To be honest, I thought more people would balk at the idea that Bioware could charge $250/month for the service and still have anyone buy it, since I imagine only a handful of PWs are spending that much per server today. But, without that cost (and, as you inadvertently point out, potentially even a higher startup charge), there is a real issue on the revenue side.

Anyway, once again, I am certainly not saying it can't work. Someone with more expertise about this field would need to fill the back of an envelope with numbers to get a grip on it. But, I don't think my estimate for revenues is super low and I know that there are more items on the expense side than I listed. It's an interesting proposition.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)
« Reply #134 on: August 28, 2012, 06:03:43 am »


               LW, regarding "sheep" and so on: Why go there? You mentioned that you think MM enjoys riling people in this thread, but what do you think it does to refer to WoW players (some of whom are clearly also NWN players) as "sheep"? The insulting term doesn't prove your point and, IMO, doesn't advance the discussion.

Meanwhile, as to the non-inflammatory substance of the comment:
1) I don't know much about WoW, but I know how to Google "world of warcraft classes". I may be missing something, but it looks like WoW offers more than three classes. Meanwhile, even if there are only three WoW classes, I played Dragon Age: Origins a little. I found it to be fun, despite having only three basic classes. Though I like NWN's class system, it's certainly possible to have an engaging game with fewer archetypes than NWN has. Meanwhile, there may be ways to differentiate a character within the archetype, just as there are in DA:O and, in fact, as there are in NWN.
2) I am not going to try to figure this out for WoW, but I suspect that, like most of the video game market, the median player is an adult about 30 years old. If you have information showing the typical WoW subscriber is a minor whose subscription is on his parents' credit card, I'd be interested to see it. (Seriously, I am curious in this info.)
3) How big time is the market for selling power-leveled characters? Once again, out of the millions of WoW subscribers, I am curious how many are making money that way.