The future of NWN 1 (and some commentary on MMOs in general)

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               http://games.yahoo.c...-223042438.html
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:50 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               I gotta admit WOW and similar games have always tickled me. Not only are those people limited in terms of their gaming potential (unlike nwn1 which is nearly open source hence it allows for basically anything in terms of game play), but they are also limited by the fact that is it pay to play... Sorry, but if I already bought the game, I shouldn't have to pay to play it. And IMHO anyone who does is a sucker. That is the biggest scam in gaming ever.... Perhaps that is the reason "MMO are dying"

If a game dev actually learned a lesson from the last decade, it would be that players like open source games like this, and further more, if they want it to be profitable in the long run they would provide a top notch hosting service for PWs run off it's open source engine. PW owners pay for hosting anyways, if game developers want to continue to profit from supporting a game, rather than the pay to play (aka wow) scam, how bout giving us a MMORPG, that is as open source as nwn 1 (if not more so), or oblivion, or Fo3, and yet fully supported on the hosting end by the game devs?

It's not complicated really, in fact rather a gem... Give the players what they want, and provide a hosting service which PWs pay for already (externally) anyways, but through you we can recieve the best support, and you can continue to profit [aka have a reason for doing so] from the game for years {or as in the case of NWN 1 over a decade} with out the pay to play crap...

Did I just say that?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 12 août 2012 - 06:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ehye_khandee]

               While this is a valid viewpoint, I would like to put this in to both elicit feedback and to illuminate the fact that it would not be anywhere near so profitable. ATM the p2p system gets every participant paying where your model would have the company drawing only hosting fees. Many using nwn host locally ('at home') so that part of the audience would not likely be interested in paying for hosting either, and likely get alienated by any change to require paid hosting on the 'company' servers.

While NWN was surely profitable, selling large numbers of games over the years, it is not the cash cow that WOW is and has been - precisely because of the hosting / published setting arrangement. Now, I have never been one with either the interest nor the discretionary funds to drop 10 or 20 dollars each month on a game I already purchased, so maybe that is why I never saw the player appeal (that and, well, I'm a D&Der for 30+ years and I LIKE to make my own adventures). The bottom line, is as it is, money. P2P makes way more money than these traditional games do for the publisher, until the bulk of the audience changes their ways and opts out of the P2P games, there will be more of them made. This does nothing to deter me from building in NWN. '>

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

http://playnwn.com
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I gotta admit WOW and similar games have always tickled me. Not only are those people limited in terms of their gaming potential (unlike nwn1 which is nearly open source hence it allows for basically anything in terms of game play), but they are also limited by the fact that is it pay to play... Sorry, but if I already bought the game, I shouldn't have to pay to play it. And IMHO anyone who does is a sucker.

Allows nearly anything in terms of game play?  Hardly.  The base engine mechanics aren't particularly good and aren't adjustable.

Take the rounds system for example.  Try attacking an enemy that's running away as a melee character sometime.  You'll just keep following them before you need to stop and have a round start before you can attack.  Try switching targets as a physical attacker.  You can stand there for up to six seconds waiting to actually swap targets.

NWN's saving grace is that a ton of it is adjustable and this makes it interesting despite the significantly inferior mechanics compared to WoW.  But I've always wished I had the WoW engine with NWN toolset.

Also, you're paying to play for two reasons.

First, you're getting new content every few months.

Second, it's a MMORPG.  Which means you need dedicated servers (and a lot of them).  You're paying to have them host everything and be able to play with everyone else.

If it was legal for a NWN PW to charge money to play there to compensate for development time and the fact that they're constantly hosting the game, would you be so outraged?  Say at $1 a month?

I'm guessing you'd be willing to do so if it was a good server.  Which brings me to a Winston Churchill quote:

Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?"
Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... "
Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?"
Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!"
Churchill:  "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

Welcome to the club!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 12 août 2012 - 03:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Ehye (ODA),
If you think about the 1000's of servers that have been in existance over the decade of NWN1's life so far, it may not be as profitable as p2p, but it certainly would be profitable. Don't you think if they had done this, we might still be supported (e.g. have the master server, amoungst other things)?

And Magical,
Sure there are flaws of a 10 year old game, but apparently you are not aware of how customizable the game is. It's on par with oblivion, Fo3, and others (or even exceeds them), but the difference is it's multiplayer.

Laz
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               What makes you think I'm not aware of how customizable the game is (hint: I've gone so far as to develop a framework for a completely new physical attack system with active abilities instead of watching your character auto-attack while maybe spamming Knockdown or some other feat)?  There's a reason it still interests me, but sometimes the mechanics frustrate me.

I'm simply saying that at the root, the combat engine, UI, and some other stuff has major flaws.  And sometimes much of the customizing is trying to get around the major flaws.  And it has nothing to do with being a ten year old game.  WoW is eight years old.

Also, were you trying to dodge the question of whether you'd pay $1 a month to play on a NWN server you enjoyed to support its development and cover hosting costs?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               I think you just proved my point with how customizable NWN 1, by your own example.

And I dodged nothing, there is no point to a response. I am pretty sure WOW cost a hell of a lot more than 1$ a month, and donation based servers are already the norm in NWN 1 (and have been pretty much the whole time). I just think people shouldn't have to pay to play a game they already paid to buy.

Furthermore, this line of thinking also proves my point that a game developer could do quite well off this buisness model. A lot of money was made off nwn 1 over the last 10 years, and bioware missed out on a not insignificant chunk of it. Sure some people invested a ton of money into home setups, but many others payed (and/or are continuing to pay) a hosting service like rak space, or what have you. The money goes to someone regardless of who that is, why not the game developer? This would also give them incentive for continuing to supporting the game...

Player based "developers" (i.e. PW owners/builders) is a whole seprate issue.

Laz

P.S. Most of this discussion doesn't have much directly to do with the article I posted that started this thread, however indirectly I think it does have some interesting insights.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 13 août 2012 - 07:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Baaleos]

               I used to be hard core into mmo's
City of Heroes - used to be really good, now I can barely force myself to play it.

Now - the only MMO's I show interest in, are the ones where I can make a one of purchase, to get a life time subscription.
Means 'Should' I decide to play again in the future, I get the veteran rewards, as well as the ability to play and stop playing whenever I want.

But - to be honest - many mmo's are dying, they all copy eachother, and are re-used to death.
Its a bit of a running joke, that every mmo is a clone of every other mmo that came before.
All that changes is the graphical assets.
Functionality, gameplay mechanisms etc remain the same
I've run a WOW and Aion private server for a while, and I can tell you, that the database structure is 90% identical.
a login server
a game server
game server db has characters, inventory, and quests
login server has logins

The databases are identical across most mmo's
Just like the gameplay
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Well, I think it is pretty much established that I am a NWN fan.

That said, I think the numbers involved here pretty much show that the majority of players (or whatever you wish to call them) prefer games like WoW.  

I mean...just look at it.

NWN you buy once.  You can do a lot with it.  You can run your own world, blah blah blah.  But you have to invest work to do this.  Believe me, as a former PW Owner, Staff member, etc, running a PW is a LOT of work!!!  It also requires a lot of time.

Purchasing a game like WoW and subscribing (provided such is necessary) basically is exchanging money for this experience without the work or loss of time necessary to reproduce it.

Lots seem to prefer this system to that of NWN.  In fact, the numbers are so skewed, that any company even remotely interested in developing and/or producing these types of games will go where the money is.

Only your little companies will explore alternatives, due to the costs involved of getting a MMO up and running (not to mention the risk involved here of failing...).

AFAIK, NO COMPANY is interested in repeating the NWN model.  Obsidian tried it, and fell short due to a number of reasons that does not need to be discussed here (as it is documented history).

Could it succeed?  I firmly believe so (and as I have repeatedly stated here, I would suggest basing such a model on Pathfinder.  Make the system as open as possible.  I think this would work.

However, would such a system ever rival a MMO like WoW?  I really do not know.  Perhaps if it was tied into the Social scene somehow.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Cloven_Hoof]

               I wonder if there will ever be another game like NWN1. A fun RPG that you can play offline, alone, open world and where the multitude of classes with different styles make for a replayability factor that is equal to or even surpasses the number of classes selectable.
I was so hyped for Skyrim, but I can't bring myself to start another character than the very first and only one I started, simply because it wouldn't be much different.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Cloven_Hoof, 13 août 2012 - 03:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               I believe NWN is a one-hit-wonder. 10 years have past and we have done everything to bring NWN to a point, graphically and mod wise where it is realy not that dull looking game it once was. But the people are talking anyway about it´s bad gfx as if there are no mods that enhance this game beyond it´s original capabilities. For me this is our game, we are in small numbers no doubt but who cares.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Just one small point about the difference of success WOW has had VS NWN 1. WOW had a massive marketing campaign. Anyone who has watched TV in the last 8 years has prolly seen a WOW commercial. I don't ever recall seeing a NWN 1 commercial. In fact I can't even recall how I got turned on to it in the first place...

I don't think you can chalk up a games success to people like simple, and are willing to pay for less diversity, simply not to have to do the work. As a player on nwn 1 for over 8 years before I got involved in building, and then eventually became a PW owner, all I did is play, and it involved no extra work on my part (other than research to find what builds I liked, and were effective, given a particular PW's environment.) The "Work" of PW developers comes from an entirely different breed of players, and NWN 1 has proven those players are out there.

P.S. NWN 2 is not a good example of a developer trying to repeat what NWN 1 did. It was nothing like NWN 1, in terms of customization potential, and there are so many other reasons the whole nwn 1 community didn't convert to nwn2 when it came out... (hell I bought it, played it some, and then came back to the original and the best.)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 13 août 2012 - 07:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Birdman076]

               Having played almost every MMO out there at one point or another, a few for long periods of time I can say wholeheartedly it wasn't the content or the eye candy that kept me playing. It was the social aspect of the MMOs that kept me going. I have yet to see or hear of widespread NWN player use of VOIP services like Mumble, Team Speak, or Ventrilo. I was first introduced to Ventrilo back when I started playing NWN on a uBp server and I never ever want to play online without a voice server again. I've played Pay to Play games like WoW and EVE, I've played Free to Play, Item Mall Play to Win, and everything in between and the ones I always return to are the ones where I had to most fun with the most people I played with. To me the biggest boat NWN is still missing is having to type everything in the game as the main form of communication.

As far as cookie cutter MMOs go, its the ADD nature of people these days that keep them interested in playing the next big thing. Case in point would be Silkroad Online, the main files were leaked and private servers are popping up every day. As soon as the next one pops up, everyone jumps on that band wagon until the next big thing comes along. Always chasing that elusive dream of feeling like they did in the beginning when everything was new, exciting, and everyone was in it for the LOLs or to see if server B offers something different from server A. Its like a bunch of hamsters being on a wheel..
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               That "bunch of hamsters being on a wheel" quote is so true man, absolutely true;)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Very true, plenty of nwn 1 servers use things like Ventrilo however.

I would just like to say though, hosting providers like ad-sl.com which provide quality, and reasonably priced hosting, as compared with rak-space and what not, could easily be done by game developers as well. Don't you all think we might still have the "master server" for example if bioware was still making money off nwn 1 after over 10 years? Not to mention other support, and continued promotion of their game... Hell maybe even other expansions would have been released...

Disclaimer: I am not saying these things have a chance in hell of happening for NWN 1, I am just saying what would have happened if bioware would have taken this approach from the beginning? How might things be different? I think they would be substantially different.