Dual-wielding Rogue

[Legacy_SVKnight]

               

Elhanan wrote...
Then for max reward, choosing a finesse weapon that applies to both hands might be something worth considering....

Yes but choosing rapier as my main hand, I can choose any type of light weapon for my off-hand that suit my needs. Shortsword/dagger for piercing, handaxe for slashing, and mace for bludgeoning. Like I said, I don't want to be tied to certain weapon configurations but I can atleast compromise when it comes to rapiers. Kukris might be a nice option for your advice but those need an extra feat to spend but I'm more likely to equip a scythe than a kukri when it comes to taking the exotic weapon proficiency feat WHICH I AM CONSIDERING(switching to str-based rogue with no dual-wielding feats, weapon finesse, tumble,hide and move silently; wearing heavy armor, have spring attack feat).

Now that I think about, that doesn't sound so bad. Maybe I can even concentrate on skills like appraise, heal or lore.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SVKnight, 21 juillet 2012 - 11:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Personally, I dislike DW as it is the weakest attack form in early lvls unless weapons are upgraded. And I prefer STR vs DEX designs, too.

These are the skills I use most frequently:

UMD
Tumble
Search
Disable Trap
Spot
Listen
Lore
Appraise
Open Lock

Persuade and Set Trap are taken depending on the mod setting; can give up Spot for needed pts as Listen covers perception well.

Back to Off-Hand: if you Specialize in short swords or handaxes, you are no more crippled by taking another weapon in the off hand than with rapiers. But rapiers will always be worse in the off hand, and that crit range levels off fairly soon; much prefer a higher crit multiplier.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SVKnight]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Back to Off-Hand: if you Specialize in short swords or handaxes, you are no more crippled by taking another weapon in the off hand than with rapiers. But rapiers will always be worse in the off hand, and that crit range levels off fairly soon; much prefer a higher crit multiplier.

I think a higher critical multiplier does not make it a better weapon(talking about the handaxe). (Probably) All of it's magical counterparts also don't have keen. What's the use of a weapon with a high critical multiplier when you rarely have critical hits with it? Also, I dislike using scrolls too much so keen edge spell isn't gonna help and I doubt I can even find bulks of them to have it on most of the time.
What do you mean rapiers in off-hands? I NEVER said that I will dual-wield with TWO rapiers. Sigh... This is why I don't like discussing about weapon configurations. I get pretty defensive about my rapiers.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SVKnight, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

SVKnight wrote...

I think a higher critical multiplier does not make it a better weapon(talking about the handaxe). (Probably) All of it's magical counterparts also don't have keen. What's the use of a weapon with a high critical multiplier when you rarely have critical hits with it? Also, I dislike using scrolls too much so keen edge spell isn't gonna help and I doubt I can even find bulks of them to have it on most of the time.
What do you mean rapiers in off-hands? I NEVER said that I will dual-wield with TWO rapiers. Sigh... This is why I don't like discussing about weapon configurations. I get pretty defensive about my rapiers.

Ask why scythes are popular among the WM crowd for answers. I enjoy watching an occasional high dmg result than see more lower ones, but that is me.

As for the math, someone else will have to offer proof as to what is actually the better choice.

The point I am making is that with a focus on another weapon is that you could improve off-hand weapon play. Whether rapier is used off-hand or not, it seemingly is an inferior choice compared to other selections available.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Dante2377]

               The real debate about a high-crit range weapon (eg rapier scimitar) vs a higher multiplier (like handaxe) have a lot to do with environment and enemies.  

for example on a PW I play on, unless you have a very high AB weapon master type build, you're not going to be hitting hard bosses on a roll of 10-15, so the extended crit range of something like 12-20 (assuming keen weapon with improved crit) doesn't actually hit those types of opponents enough times to outweigh the higher multiplier from something like a handaxe. And the non-bosses aren't super threatening anyway, so being able to crit against them more often is really just a time-saver.  So in answer to your question "why is high multiplier good if you don't hit a lot?", the answer is, if you face environments with tough bosses where you're not hitting a lot anyway, the extra multiplier damage is a bonus and you're probably only hitting on crits anyway.

But it also depends on the specific environment OC vs a PW, etc, and what sort of damage bonuses are found/can be added to the weapon.

The OC is hard to judge "optimal" builds or compare builds (similar to vanilla Baldur's Gate2), because the enemy power level is so low that any half-decent build from a half-decent player should complete it.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Dante2377, 21 juillet 2012 - 06:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               I remember seeing years ago that somebody did the math, comparing 19-20/x2 crits vs 20/x3 crits eith the sama base damage (longsword vs battleaxe or great sword vs great axe), and the difference was very very small, basically a wash. So, between the two, choose what looks better to you, or which one has a better magic version in your playing environment. Scimitar and rapier both have wider threat range than longsword (18-20, vs 19-20), but smaller base damage. Similarly, scythe has smaller base damage than other 2-handers, but the largest critical mltiplier in the game (x4).

Personally, I usually go for sword-and-board, with either warhammer for the seldom-resisted blunt damage and x3 crits, or scimitar for a lot more crits. Now that you're considering a STR-based build, here's a build I played in the OC, easily handling anything it threw at me, and I didn't need a henchman. Feel free to tweak it to fit how you want to play the game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 20 Rough-and-Ready Rogue (Rogue 16 / Fighter 4)
Human, Any Alignment
Playable 1 - 20, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 16 (21)
DEX: 14
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 10

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Rogue(1): Toughness, Dodge
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Fighter(1): Blind Fight, Weapon Focus
04: Rogue(3): STR+1, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (STR=17)
05: Fighter(2): Power Attack
06: Rogue(4): Cleave
07: Rogue(5)
08: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=18)
09: Rogue(6): Mobility
10: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization
11: Rogue(7)
12: Rogue(: STR+1, Spring Attack, (STR=19)
13: Rogue(9)
14: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
15: Rogue(11): Great Cleave
16: Rogue(12): STR+1, (STR=20)
17: Rogue(13): Crippling Strike
18: Rogue(14): Improved Critical
19: Rogue(15)
20: Rogue(16): STR+1, Opportunist, (STR=21)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 196
Skillpoints: 229
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 11/5/13
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Traps: +3
BAB: 16
AB (max, naked): 22 (melee), 18 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 16/26
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Disable Trap 23(27), Discipline 13(18), Heal 18(17), Listen 23(22), Lore 23(25), Open Lock 23(25), Persuade 22(22), Search 23(25), Set Trap 5(9), Spellcraft 8(10), Tumble 20(22), UMD 20(20)

01: Disable Trap(4), Listen(4), Lore(4), Open Lock(4), Persuade(4), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(4)
02: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(6)
03: Discipline(6), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(2)
04: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2)
05: Discipline(2), Lore(1), Save(2)
06: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2), Save(1)
07: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), UMD(5), Save(1)
08: Discipline(3), Save(3)
09: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2), Save(2)
10: Discipline(2), Save(5)
11: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2), UMD(4)
12: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
13: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(1)
14: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(3), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1)
15: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(5), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1)
16: Disable Trap(1), Heal(2), Listen(1), Lore(2), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), Save(1)
17: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), UMD(5)
18: Disable Trap(1), Heal(5), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1)
19: Disable Trap(1), Heal(5), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1)
20: Disable Trap(1), Heal(6), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Empyre65, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SVKnight]

               Yeah.... I think I'll just forgo dual-wielding in favor of my scythes. But I'm quite torn whether I should add points to Tumble(purely for the AC) since I will be using heavy armor and will be taking Spring Attack feat. Should I probably add some points to Appraise too? I also am not sure whether I should take Fighter 4 early for weapon specialization or save it for later. I'm planning to take it on character level 12 for Discipline 15(High-STR will probably increase this for me) or should I just wait and take it at level 19 for Discipline 22?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SVKnight, 22 juillet 2012 - 05:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Dante2377]

               

SVKnight wrote...

Yeah.... I think I'll just forgo dual-wielding in favor of my scythes. But I'm quite torn whether I should add points to Tumble(purely for the AC) since I will be using heavy armor and will be taking Spring Attack feat. Should I probably add some points to Appraise too?

Yes, max Tumble.  There are very few situations you won't want to.  The AC is worth it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               For a scythe, you may wish to consider Ftr 8/ Rog 12 as an alternative, But for a 4 lvl design, I tend to take llvls at 2, 7, 12, and 17th as a rule.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               In the build I posted, I was trying to get Weapon Spec as early as possible, while avoiding falling behind in Rogue skills by having more than 1 level of Fighter in a row, and also making sure to have Rogue at levels 2, 7, 12, and 17 for well-timed Tumble skill dumps. Scythe should work fine with this build.

You'll need that Tumble AC even more, since you're not using a shield. Yes, you do get Tumble AC even while wearing heavy armor.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Higher level rogues depend on sneaks for damage.  An obvious consequence is that undead are problematic as well as any other crit-immunes (which are most often also sneak immunes as well).  Then with high sneaks, the higher the APR, the greater damage per round.  So a dual-wield build will dwarf a slow high damage one, even without figuring crits into the equation.  Yes, scythes are high damage, but roughly half the APR of kukri dual-wield so half the sneaks.  Since scythes are not finessable, it MUST be a STR build so defense is going to be a huge problem not getting hit too often to make up for the damage being dealt. Scythes are best with a WM due to Ki Critical/Increades multiplier combo that compensate for the scythes's pedestrian crit potential.  IMO the best use for a high-damage (in this case, non-DevCrit) build is better success against spellcaster's concentration check. 

For that reason, I would build a dual-kukri (base crit 18-20) halfing, gaining the full advantage from the DW feats, AC, AB & all the other race boni.  Up to 16 levels (Rog 16/ Ftr 4) could be taken pre-epic to get to the non-hasted 4 SW APR/6 DW APR level. My preference would be to aim for an ED epic DEX toon with sling (and/or thowing) as a secondary switch utilizing the shield prof. from fighter class for range or just a S/S switch against high AB foes like dragons, if needed. Melee & range AB will be very similar levels. Yes, Keen Edge would be handy but I would use either wiz or bard in combo which would require a significantly different build for that.  I, too, am annoyed when forced to rely on procuring scrolls unless I could scribe them myself... not possible in the OC.

Unfortunately, if you are aiming for an optimized epic build, then the OC will not be optimized for the campaign, but rather just be introducing the first 17-18 levels of the final level 40 build and the benefits of Epic Dodge will never become a factor.  The good news is that in the OC, rogue is perhaps the easiest class to advance (IMO) because traps are readily available and can kill every boss that is otherwise a tough foe (like Belial).  The only exception are a few dragons in the last chapter that are hostile and difficult to trap (not impossible, but VERYdifficult for inexperienced trappers).  Even Morag is a breeze with deadly traps.  Traps are so plentiful in the OC that they can be sold if toting them becomes a problem but they are always available.

If this build was supposed to be designed specifically for the OC, well... the OC really doesn't need an optimized build even on the hardest difficulty setting.  Keep in mind that as far as skills are concerned, investing into any non-combat related skills like Persuade or Appraise, although handy, will sacrifice power from the build.  One exception would be Search, if you want to recover traps (can't disarm what you can't spot).  The stealth skills can be left surprisingly low in the OC and still remain effective (especially with a DEX build) but need to be much higher in subsequent content to win vs. the listen/spot checks..

Just another opinion to stir your "pot" of decisions.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SVKnight]

               Well for now it's for the OC. But when I do go into epic levels, I would probably take WM levels since I have most of it's requirements(dodge,mobility,spring attack & intimidate 4 is easy to acquire).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SVKnight]

               What's the best possible finesse-able weapon there is in the OC? I know there's Leech(+5 with vamp regen+3) which is pretty good and Blacksoul Sickle(+6? with vamp regen+2) too. I'm testing my scythe build with Death's Handmaiden(+4 with keen and vamp regen+3) and compare it to dual-wield build using best possible weapons.

Just tested the scythe build with these items:
Death's Handmaiden(+4 with keen and vamp regen+3)
Golden Circlet(mind-affecting spell immunity, will+1, 10 spell resist)
Red Dragon Armor(+5 ac, 20 fire resist)
Cloak of Fortification+3(+3 deflection ac, +3 universal saving throws)
Belt of Fire Strength(+5 str)
Amulet of the Uthgardt+4
(+4 str, fear immunity)
gauntlets of ogre power(+2 str)
Boots of Hardiness+3 (+3 dodge ac, +3 con)
ring of power(15 cold fire electric resist, freedom and regen+1)
ring of elemental resist (15 cold fire electric acid resist)

I don't know what monsters to test it so I decided on dragons(ancient). It can kill one pretty fast. Also tested with liches, adamantine golems and balors. It can kill a lich pretty quickly. Balors too unless it uses death magic which can kill me since I have low will saves. Adamantine golems are hard since the scythe can't damage it so I switched to a quarterstaff+3 and still managed to defeat it.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SVKnight, 23 juillet 2012 - 12:22 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Death's Handmaiden is a pretty sweet weapon. Does it pop up that often in the OC? The ILR for it is level 18. (You can turn ILR off, but it's still something of a guide for when things will can start showing up in random loot.)

It may also be worth considering weapons with other properties that compliment a rogue particularly. For instance, there are several weapons with on-hit properties, like stun, that will allow you more sneak attacks, and that extra several d6 of damage is a much bigger damage boost (against sneakable opponents) than anything else you can get on a weapon in the OC. In addition, while a weapon like a Courtesan Blade or Wicked Union won't have the enhancement bonus of Death's Handmaiden, if an opponent is stunned, attacks against him are at (an additional) +2 and he loses dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC. Of course, many hits won't result in stuns, but it can be a great property for rogue weapons, at least when dealing with opponents who aren't immunde to mind effects.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SVKnight]

               Are there any other weapon(light) that Haste property in it other than Short Sword of Quickness? Seems nice since it provides an extra attack per round and +4 AC.
Also, if a monster with mind-affecting spells immunity is hit by an on-hit effect from a weapon(sleep, stun,  etc), would it be affected(assuming it failed the DC) or not?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SVKnight, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:11 .