ehye_khandee wrote...
Um, please don't derail the thread. This is about neverwinterconnections and has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR EXE HACK.
Thank you but no thanks. I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE CHANGE THE EXE FILES TO GET FUNCTIONALITY.
.....
WARNING TO EVERYONE BENT ON CHANGING THE EXES - unless I miss my estimate here, YOU WILL END UP FRAGMENTING THE COMMUNITY BY SENDING PART OF THE DATA ONE PLACE AND PART OF IT TO ANOTHER. THIS HELPS HOW?
I'd say the thread derailed with this, even if it's an old thread, not with skywings comments, i am frankly just stunned at how you describe things, and the heavy use of caps - are you actually yelling, but i hope to get this thread back on track.
Your comments show an unwillingness to consider new things ( or even understand old things), and show a need to listen and ask more questions before you go on the attack and fly off the handle. I know it's the internet and all, but would you talk like this to someone else face to face in real life. I basically try to remove people like that from my life, its just not worth dealing with, but in the forums it has a cost, the people who are contributing things, rely on positive forum feedback to support their hard work on developing tools, and when they have to deal with comments like this, well it tends to make them leave. Can NWN1 or NWN2 really afford to lose any developer? I think not.
Skywing is generally a behind the scenes quiet guy, but most people who do develop anything on a computer rely on him for his in depth knowledge of both NWN1 and NWN2, and I don't think any other game has a resource with as much expertise as he has, and deserving of much more respect just based on his contributions he's made to the overall community. When he offers comments, it's generally literally game changing, and the folks who are pushing the edges of what you can do in NWN1 and NWN2, you'd be surprised at how many of them are getting advice from him.
Generally when i face a problem that is beyond me, he responds with a word or two, and I have no idea what he is talking about and it seems not to be related. But i google it, spend 3 weeks learning what he mentioned, and I realize he was so far ahead of my thinking, that i just could not understand him yet.
If he leaves this community, well that is going to adversely affect the future of both NWN1 and NWN2, he's probably one of the most important individuals to the success of this community, and i would have already given up on both games if it was not for him, I mean what is the point if your server crashes every 15 minutes.
A. Regarding the EXE modifications - The client extension he is discussing is only for NWN2, and it's just about universally used if you prefer to avoid NWN2 crashing, or running faster, or being stable, or making it so you can default to walking instead of running and not use stealth to move at normal speed. This does not modify the EXE, it actually modifies the running game process, and it's not a trivial hack, you need to try it. Unlike NWN1 we never got a 1.69 patch, and skywing is capable of actually providing patches to the game which are desparately needed. While the devs were doing patches he worked with the devs, and was able to get the patches into the released game. First for the server with xp_bugfix, but after seeing major network issues he made the client changes replace how the client communicates. Basically a PW ends up being more stable and can handle more players with his fixes, even the issue with 2 players from the same LAN won't make every account on the server get random bic's in it. Basically it's already in general usage, so it's not going to split anything up. ( and you should see the DM options he's added, and the stand alone client that lets you log in as a DM while you are logged in as a player at the same time )
B. Further about modifying EXE's, Modification of the game process ( via NWNx ) is how PW's run and is generally accepted. It is what allowed the community of PW admins to make this a community game despite bioware, and how we get features added to the game. Again this is universally used if you want to add in advanced features. The
NWN2 client extension does this as well, and it's not some script kiddy hack, this is someone who is a top level programmer who was respected by the folks at Obsidian, who has actual symbol files given to him by obsidian which let him see every detail in the game, whose patches fix so many issues that refusing to use his xp_bugfix and client extension will have measurably more crashes, is slower, and causes issues for PW admins. I don't think this is needed for NWN1 to the same degree, but for NWN2 it's just not an option not to use it.
C. The soon to be released NWNCX feature made by virusman, is going to use skywings infrastructure. It will list all the PW's on it. And just like NWNx it modifies the game process, NOT THE EXE file. I would not be surprised if this supports both linux and windows. And it's a choice by the player. It is not required to make this all work, but we are at the point where we need to fix gamespy, and add new features to the game client if we are to actually move forward. Quite a few issues in NWN2 actually also exist in NWN1, and unless we get a 1.70 patch, the only way to fix them is via patching the game process.
All of the above relate to NWNx, and are developed by NWNx developers who work together, which is central to all NWN PW's, and which provides persistence via access to real databases and so much more. I guess you could use the in game database, but if you are you probably just don't know better, like everything, this is your choice, but I'd imagine the PW's using NWNx are going to end up with more features than those without, and end up lasting longer because of it.
D. Gamespy is down, there are six ways to deal with it. All the ideas discussed are variations on these and just about all of it splits things up in too many ways.
- Just don't play multiplayer, or keep entries in your history. This means the game is going to die or is just a SP game. ( frankly i like rubbing shoulders with SP and MP folks all together )
- Re-aim the OS to send gamespy communications to a new server, and recreate gamespy, this will also mess up any other games that use gamespy, but those can forward to gamespy. While this sounds great, I am pretty sure a cease and desist letter will show up since gamespy owns the rights to it's system which you are copying without their approval. ( and looking at luigi's site who has all the info on it, the lawyers do pay attention so good luck on that. )
- Modify the actual exe file to aim at a new server. However if a person has a patched EXE file ( ie no cd, or other mod ) this won't work with it, or might be buggy. You still need a central server, and then why would the data have to be in gamespy format if you got things this far, instead you should use an open data exchange method.
- Modify the game after it starts, just like NWNx modifies the service. This is what NWNCX does. This does not fix the central server, but it does let you fix the in game pw listings to use a data source of your choice. Frankly gamespy is not an open format, nor is it efficient, nor is it well documented, moving to a new format just makes sense.
- Put the pw list on a stand alone app, and have it launch the game via +connect ( i am doing an app that does this, which is needed for mac users who cannot use NWNx )
- Put the pw list on a website, players can use it to find the game to play on. ( this sounds like what your site is made for, and why this comment belongs in this thread )
Now lets take a step back, the first 3 are clearly wrong. The second two assume we HAVE to use gamespy, but the fact is we don't actually have to use gamespy which is a closed method of communication, it would be preferred to use an open method.
First, Getting the in game server list working is clearly needed, touching the exe file is not going to fly, but making it change in memory right after it starts, well that really gives an option to the player. And the fact it's using SOAP to do this is actually faster than how it was doing it before via gamespy and pinging all the servers for player counts ( assuming it worked similar to how i implemented it prior to gamespy being shut off and how luigi documented it )
Second, having a stand alone app is a great idea. Makes it easy, and if you don't want to touch the exe file, great.
Third having it on a website, ie like
http://www.nwnlist.com/ - we can find addresses.
As for the central data source. We have NWNx plugins, those are great solution, PW admins already use them. Further we can use a web service post to notify the central server ( via PHP or whatever ) when the server is up or where it's located. And since it's open, anyone can develop new means of updating it. And the NWNx folks who are doing it, well NWNx has always been a vital part of PW's in nwn1 and nwn2, why not have their team be behind the fix for gamespy going away, they already are modding the server process which is exactly the thing being listed.
You claimed this splits up the community, but all three options use the SAME data source, the SOAP allows any client program to use it regardless of OS. The data source can be kept up to date via NWNx plugins, or the PW can send SOAP messages telling the central server their status ( or those using the extender who direct connect can also notify the central server, and the central server can monitor those ip's ) Further custom additions can be done to add PW's that refuse to join, making this universal.
Now in you post, you go on a rant about SOAP like its a bad thing, and how your web server is not a server ( that was kind of confusing ), and someting about how you don't use windows, and how you do ALL your own code. Frankly this seems more like anger, and as a long time web developer, this just does not make me think you really understand what is being discussed, or how web sites are developed in this day and age, perhaps you are aiming at setting up a system to track PWs you are doing yourself, but frankly I'd prefer you choose instead to work with the community and what is already working. Your server and your programmers just won't be able to compete with an open system, which is already so far along in development the problem is actually solved, and the solution is being back ported to support NWN1.
Now I am looking at the results from this server, and i am doing this on a mac using a program I wrote that pulls data from what Skywing wrote. ( my program is off topic and i have another thread on it, if you care ). I see 328 players on 91 servers for NWN2 right now. On NWN1 I see 879 players on 189 servers. How many NWN1 pw's do you think there are at this point, I can't imagine that is not already taking dominent market share, despite the fact that most people seem to be still trying to figure out what should be done, or how to recreate the gamespy servers.
I got this list on a mac, in a program I wrote to launch NWN1 and connect to any of those servers by hitting the play button. I did this via using a open web service and it has critical mass in NWN2, and definitely has heavy usage in NWN1. So if you do something else, you will move servers out of the above central list into another central list so we have 2 lists, or get all the servers refusing to join this list - this sounds more like splitting up things. Or perhaps it's a split between NWN1 and NWN2 which is desired, because this is working in NWN2, and the game client lists all the PWs and NWNx communicates with his Soap service. Or perhaps it's by OS, If i couldn't use skywings service, i'd have to make my own list just for mac users since absolutely no ideas discussed here help our minority group except for skywings. Most things in this community are done by standing on the shoulders of others prior efforts.
A web service is used by real web sites, because it is generally understood that it is better for each web site to specialize in a single area and integrate other websites where they do it better, than to do everything yourself. Smart programmers integrate multiple api's and do some amazing things. For example, if you see maps on a web site, it's generally using the google maps service, and the developer is still developing, he's just able to work smarter using the what google has provided, and making something neither that developer nor google could have done on their own.
SOAP is not a windows thing, it's actually fully open, W3C specification, and further is just a way of exchanging data which works on any OS, and I don't think there is a internet company that does not provide or use an API in this day and age, but the term SOAP, or REST or Web Service, all of them exchange XML or JSON data, even AJAX and allow you to do things like buy things with your credit card, all of them are just API's which allow you to work together with other website. I am planning on my own fully open data sources via web services, utilizing data on custom content and patches, and closely integrated with the vault preservation project. The hope in my doing this, is that if I can develop sources of raw data - ie a searchable list of single player modules which is tightly integrated with the vault and the nexus, and that the community can take the baton and take this further than i can imagine, and we can all move further ahead by working as a community. ( and you could use this API list the modules which are good for running events )
And lets get back to the point of the thread -- and yes this is actually on topic, just not the direction you are aiming for here, rather I am trying to get your comments back on topic....
Why isn't a site named neverwinterconnections.com not willing to integrate live data on server status and helping players find a PW? Why can't you integrate this information into your matchmaking, listing empty servers, citing the current player count, keeping track of the player count during an event and the like. My mind is just over flowing with ways this could be used to "connect" what is going on in game, with what is posted on your site.
And further, ways you could work with skywing and others to add even more amazing features that integrate your site and the game itself. ( for example a nwnx plugin to send a message to your server when a bored dm is looking for player victims to do something with, where he can hit a button in game and it shows up on your sites front page )
Why can't you take this openly shared source of data, grab the baton and show how you can stand on the shoulders of others in the community and come up with something new and cool based on it? Skywing has already done the hard part, he's got a list of all the PW's which is dynamically up to date, and he is offering to let you integrate this information into your event listings.
And when some a renowned developer offers something he thinks is useful to your discussion, isn't there a more civil way to respond? We are actually all on the same side.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 02 février 2013 - 05:32 .
