Replaying HotU w/ increased difficulty + Tonk K AI = Getting Slaughtered

[Legacy_stevennlv]

               Hi All,

Many moons ago I was DEEP in to NWN1. Now I'm coming back for some good times. But, in the years that have passed I've forgotten 99% of the in depth stuff.

I dug out an old build of mine. I spent a lot of time developing him back in the day. When he maxes out he'll be monk20/clr17/asn3. He's a generalist (jack of all trades but master of none) / melee build. I designed him to run solo on high magic / hack and slash PWs where solo's normally drop like flies. And he did very well.

But, so much time has passed that I have forgotten how to play him effectively.

Plus, just for giggles, I made HotU harder. I increased the difficulty up to DnD Hardcore and installed Tony K's AI hak. (Neither of which I had ever played with before.)

I'm just starting HotU. I'm barely in to Halaster's maze and I'm absolutely getting slaughtered by the mages.

Right now I'm 18 (Monk7/Clr8/Asn3) and I have high enough UMD to use almost every magic item in the game. (I started at 15.)

The problem that I'm having is this: I run up on a big band of bad guys and the foot soldiers all surround me while several mages sit back and obliterate me with magic missile storms.

The foot soldiers are boxing me in so tight that I can't break free to go at the mages. Which, of course is what they should be doing. But, w/o Tony K the game was never smart enough to figure that out!

Like I said: This guy was built to solo on high magic worlds. But, the equipment at the beginning of HotU sucks!

It's been a lot of years, but if IIRC they way I used to solve this problem was with a Rod of Ghostly Visage. But I can't get one of those yet. So I'm using the "assassin power" Ghostly Visage and I'm getting nailed. HARD!

W/O having to start all over from scratch do you guys know a good way that I can protect this guy from magic missile storms right now?

Thanks.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par stevennlv, 11 décembre 2011 - 06:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               I would call your post a ringing endorsement of Tony K's AI. :-)

If the mages are casting Magic Missile (instead of one of the Isaac's spells), you can get immunity from scrolls. Both Shield and Ghostly Visage will protect from Magic Missile. Of course, the DC for UMD on those scrolls (26 and 27) may make them inconsistent with a UMD skill of 15. I would suggest buying offensive mage scrolls from Sobrey to use at a distance against enemy mages or defensive scrolls (Spell Mantles, Globes of Invulnerability, etc.), but that will have the same issues unless your UMD is very high.

One approach would be to capitalize on stealth to sneak up on larger groups so that you can get close to the mages before the brawny types surround you. With Tony K's AI, spellcasters tend to start out by casting a few defensive buffs before attacking, so if you can take one or two of them down before they really get to work, many battles will be more survivable. Potions of invisibility are probably a big help for your build at its current level.

And, as a soloist, you have to be willing to separate the enemies. Sneak to the edge of perception, so that only one or two are visible, use a ranged attack, then run off in stealth mode so that only those guys follow. Whittle down the bigger groups that way. Also, that technique can work very well with traps.

Of course, there are always henchies. Doom, doom, doom! ;-)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 11 décembre 2011 - 10:37 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Hmmm...can you get scrolls of Minor Globe of Invulnerability?  Should protect you from Magic Missile...as well as the Shield spell (which would actually be better).

Or are you talking about Isaac's Lesser/Greater Missile Storm here?  In that case...you are doomed!

Can't you sneak, or use some invis here?  Wait...why do you not lay down some traps?  Lure the m0bs into the traps, killing them (around corners, preferably), then engage the Mages...

I would rely on a LOT of invis here...it seems to be your only hope.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Ha. Sorry, WebShaman. Just when I thought no one was paying attention to this thread right now and I should go and add a couple examples to my post, I see you've posted similar advice.

I wonder if the build mix is just at a low point of effectiveness right now. 18th level is pretty high for the start of HotU, but none of those classes is over level 10, so none has really come into it's own in terms of damage dealing or a nice group of reliable tactics for a given situation.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               Greater sanctuary and buffed minor summons (possibly both summons and buffing done through wands) to drain them of their spells and you're set.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_stevennlv]

               Clarification: I started my guy at lvl15. He's progressed to lvl18. I'm just getting ready to start lvl3 of Halaster's maze. (Yes, I gained three levels that quick.)

His UMD is high enough that the only stuff that he cannot use is a couple of the "mega" harps. Everything else is available to him.

Strategy is not the problem. I excel there. The stuff I've forgotten is the in-depth mechanics involved in creating a build (one of the reasons that I don't want to start over with a new guy.)

I'm using all the tactics you guys suggested (darkness / stealth / 15-20 traps in the hallway/ lure guys out / hit and run/ etc). That's my favorite way to play.

But, with Tony K' AI the bad guys in the next room will open the door when they hear a fight and come join in the fight. Plus (I think) new guys are spawning during the fight. So I end up absolutely swarmed.

My guy is tough enough to stand toe to toe with a crowd of underlings. Even Tony's improved underlings. But, when I have 3-5 mages laying in to me from way back and I'm boxed in so tight that I can't even move then things get real hairy real fast!

I was looking for a challenge. And I've got it. But, it would be nice not to end up dead every five minutes!

As far as what spell the mages are casting? I couldn't tell you. It's been too long and I'm just getting back in to things; like three days ago (lots to relearn!)  

All I can say for sure is that all of a sudden the bad guy mages launch a whole butt-load of magic missiles and I end up toast.

I'll try the scrolls you guys suggested and see if that helps.

Thanks for the pointers.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               You should be able to "see" which spells are being cast in your task bar - assuming your spellcraft is high enough.

I personally would suggest using a lot of invis potions (assuming you can get them).  Lay down lots of traps before the doors where other m0bs come through - that should be a nice welcome matt!  Also, using the strat that Kail has suggested is very good.

Can you also get a scroll of BBoD? *grins*

NOW you got some real scary stuff!

@ Mr. Zork - like how you 'snuck' that in there, before I did!  And it all matches up so well!

Nice to see that the ol' noggin' is still sloggin'! '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 12 décembre 2011 - 02:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Stevennlv, the caveat about using scrolls with UMD is that (on hardcore difficulty or higher), you can use the scrolls in the sense that they aren't red to you. But, there is an actual UMD check based on the spell level (it's 25 + spell level) to see if the spell on the scroll goes off correctly. There are no take 20s for that, even outside of combat. Because of that UMD check, your modified UMD skill has to be 24 + spell level or there is always a chance of the scroll being used up but the spell doesn't go off. Obviously, for a 6th level spell like Globe of Invulnerability, the modified UMD of 30 to guarrantee success is somewhat tough to hit for most characters at 18th level. That doesn't mean scrolls aren't a great help (there's still a 50% chance that the spell in that example would be cast properly with a modified UMD of 20 and you can buy a stack of Evard's Tentacles and watch the mages struggle with interrupted spells and paralysis), but it's a factor to keep in mind that scroll use isn't as reliable as it would have been playing at less than the hard core settings.

Also, even aside from UMD issues, your main source for arcane scrolls, Sobrey, doesn't have a great selection of the best higher level scrolls. But Minor Globes of Invulnerability and Lesser are a great resource. Unfortunately, the cleric merchant (Thestra?) is really bad for cleric scrolls.

As has been said, there will be some challenges in HotU for this character. I think that a stealth-based, snipe-and-run approach should get you through the rough patches. If you see half a dozen baddies heading your way, get out of town and creep back to pick them off on at a time. This is also a workable approach with a henchman: have him stand his ground back out of perception range, then creep up and get a baddy to chase you back toward your ally, then let him pound away while you hack at the flanks. BTW, the blob of acid traps are great for getting your enemies separated, and a blob of acid trap (or frost or sonic, though their saves tend to be wimpier) with an area of effect (e.g. electrical) trap right behind it is a good way to make sure at least a couple enemies get caught in the AoE.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 12 décembre 2011 - 02:28 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Two questions to the OP:

Are you trying to solo?  You can use 2 henchies plus a summon (no-crit undead seem to last the longest).

Are the mage types running to chase you or act as artillery mage? Usually mages stand back so  wake up melee types at the front line and kite them out of mage range.  I like traps myself but unless you can recover those you see, it can become expensive.

Oops..! - a spoiler was removed here.-  Let's just say that permahaste is well within your reach and speed kills.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 12 décembre 2011 - 05:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_stevennlv]

               Mr. Zork: Yeah, I ran smack in to the UMD check. But I bumped his charisma with some equipment and got it so that most scrolls fire off most of the time. And I played with my spell book a bit too. And did some other work on his kit.  

HipMaestro: Solo all the way baby. Dragging around all those little guys drives me crazy! Too much work.

The mages are "artillery" type.  But, like a ******, I forgorted that in "hide" mode he can walk up on almost anything. Pretty much as long as there's no spot light shining on me I can walk right up to you and spit in your eye.

Surprise!

And of course that's really fun with "death attack". Ha Ha!

Mages are much more fun to play with when you start whacking on them before they get off the first buff; much less those annoying missile storms.

I walked through the Maker like a hot knife through butter!

And now that I'm getting a head start while the group is scattered life is much easier.

Sneak up, scope it out, sneak off, buff up, sneak back, walk up to the biggest meany in the group and say HI!

Then work my way down the ladder. If I see it fire off a spell then it's next on the lunch menu. '>

Thanks for the help and info!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Glad to hear your brain has finally begun to work again, OP. '>

A self-buffing monk/cleric is not exactly a mage, it's more a divine war machine, with or without Tony K's installed.  Personally, I get tired of using the stinkin' kamas but the monk AB progression cannot be topped.

Figure on a final level of about 28 solo, give or take a few thousand XP.

And welcome back to the unrelenting fun called "Neverwinter Nights"! '>