Community Patch 1.70 final release

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Right, No one cares what I use, or not.I do however find what one of the "contributors" posted on the vault submission, enlightening.

The Krit
Here is my evaluation for those thinking about downloading this.
Pros:
* This project contains a large number of bug fixes and enhancements.
* It makes the game work as Shadooow wants it to work.

Cons:
* It uses .bifs for content.
(Unlike most custom content, this Vault entry cannot be removed by simply deleting its files. Instead, a critical rebuild is required.)
* It is monolithic
(There is no easy way to exclude changes someone might find objectionable. While "monolithic" is not a problem with smaller projects, it is a drawback for a project of this scale, unless you fully trust the content developer.)
* It renders some spells uncastable when playing on a server that does not have this Vault entry installed.
(I checked Invisibility Purge. Also affected should be Healing Circle, Fire Storm, and Storm of Vengeance. Similarly, those spells should be uncastable by players without this installed if they are playing on a server with it.)
* It makes the game work as Shadooow wants it to work.
(The decision as to what was "balanced for all kinds of environments and game types" and "to make sense" was made by Shadooow and reflects a large number of conclusions I personally find nonsensical. Your mileage may vary.)

Overall:
If you like all the changes in this package, it might be for you. If you are not sure, it probably is not. It definitely is not something I want on my computer. It is not all bad, but the parts that I do not like are enough for me to pass on the whole package.

Special notes:
I find it extremely odd for Shadooow to be quoting himself in this entry's description. It makes me think he is trying to delude people into thinking this entry is more than his personal compilation of enhancements.

I am listed as one of the "Community Patch contributors", which can be misleading since I have contributed nothing to this entry specifically. Some of my work is in it, but the work was contributed to the community at large. I do not object to my work being incorporated into this project (I did release it for people to use after all), but any inference that I endorse this project is wrong.

Rating based on:
6 - Good, Qualified Recommendation
4 - Some Merit, Requires Improvements

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               Sorry, can't see the "enlightening" aspect of anything in what The Krit posted on the Vault page for ShaDoOoW's patch. What I see is a simple case of ESL definition confusion - that is to say that ShaDoOoW (for whom English is a second language) obviously understands the definition of contribution differently than Americans do.

See, anyone can look at something and interpret it how they wish. Since The Krit had issue with being listed as a "contributor" he should have contacted ShaDoOoW and said "Dude, WTF, I'm not a contributor" and given ShaDoOoW a chance to resolve the issue.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Perhaps ShaDo0oW forgot to ask if he could include the Krits work. the Krit does not come out and say it, but does imply that no conversation happened.
Pstemarie I find your lack of understanding on how dangerous resubmitting of work is, due to how it was the Q team who started the conversation/uproar in the first place. While you may not agree with it, if I were to resubmit project Q content in a new hak set, without so much as I am going to use it, and did a credit list, as a read me, you would be the first one flipping out. But don't take my word for it, take Qs
Project Q will make available some of our artwork for public distribution every major release, however, unless you have received approval to do so by the original artist, Q cannot grant the right to distribute our material to others.  It is an agreement we make with people submitting art to us, to prevent them from losing control over their own works.  
"from the project q webpage:
People wishing to use art from Q in their own personal haks will have to make a request.  Our email is projectq [at] qnwn.net.  Most requests will be approved. "
Just to be clear Pstemarie, we are talking artwork here, in ShaDo0oWs patch, not just 2da edits, or scripting lines. Saying its ok,from a Q team member, is at least hypocritical, and at most the stupidest thing you have ever posted, should you wish to keep the info listed on the Q faq page true. But, hey I am just whining, and no one cares anyway.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_UrkOfGreyhawk]

               Shova I have been reading your posts. You have no first hand knowledge of anyone feeling like their content has been "stolen", yet you're raving on in a fit of self righteousness and calling shadow a thief when all he's done is spend untold hours of his time combining community content into a single cohesive package that fixes a LOT of NWN's loose ends. He's asking nothing in return. He's carefully attributed everyones work (a huge job in and of itself, BTW). He's done NOTHING wrong and you're giving him a hard time about something that hasn't even happened.

What the hell does project Q have to do with anything? The've made their feelings about their content perfectly clear and as a community we've respected that. Most of us don't use Q for exactly that reason. But that's not what's happening here. None of the contributors (or whatever you want to call them) are complaining. Just some loudmouth wannabe with no stake.

You're being a damn drama queen trying to stir up trouble where there is none.

YOU'RE BEING A TROLL.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Urk, your opinion matters just as much as mine. Whatever you think of me, believe me, I think even less of you. if you insist on defending the resubmitting of others work with out their say so, that is your right, just as it is mine to say, that is not good. Argue about it all you want, by all means, please continue to call me a troll, and a nitwit. it's just more ammo for the mods when they do show up.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_wyldhunt1]

               Alright, look....
This is not the place for a flame war. You don't like it because he admitted that he didn't ask The Amethyst Dragon before using his icons. Fine. They have both posted (Well, you re-posted for The Krit) that they don't mind ShaDoOoW using their stuff. The only complaint appears to be a very minor grammar mistake on ShaDoOoW's part.
If you choose not to use it, great.
You have made your opinion clear.
Everyone else has made their opinion clear.

Can we all be done with this now before ShaDoOoW is forced to start a new thread when a mod locks this one for flame wars?

On that note, this is my last off topic post here.
All future attempts at starting a flame war will be ignored.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_UrkOfGreyhawk]

               Edit: Very well. I bow to your wisdom, Wyld.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

SHOVA wrote...

Perhaps ShaDo0oW forgot to ask if he could include the Krits work. the Krit does not come out and say it, but does imply that no conversation happened.

Yes I didn't asked The Krit officially.

Two reasons: first, in case of familiar The Krit is listed here by Ben Harrison who credited him for providing know how that allowed to create this set of fixes - AFAIK The Krit didn't participated in fixing blueprints itself and I get permission from both Ben Harrison and BCH to re-use their content in my patch. Second in case of Craft Magic Fixes, the fix consist of about twenty 2DA changes. In fact I didn't took his work there because I had mine 2da modified already so I looked what he changed and replicated his changes onto my version. Afaik 2DA are property of Bioware anyway.

Also since he is NWN Wiki admin and I created a page for this project that listed familiars, ke knew very well this content is here. If he had some issues he could told me. But if I understood his post correctly he doesn't even have a problem with his content being used in Patch.

My objection against The Krit on vault page is that he found out a bug in Patch (based on fact that he knew about Patch goals to provide absolute compatibility with 1.69 since he asked me about this on NWN Wiki) and instead of reporting the bug he suggested others not using the Patch because of that issue. I overstepped when I implied that he knew about that issue before I released final version so pardon me for that.

EDIT:
I don't even expect that other NWN experts like LightFoot8 or you SHOVA use this Patch. If I wouldn't be an author I would already have most of the fixes in my modules so I wouldn't have many points to use the Patch. I guess thats the reason why others do not use it, even though you won't shouldn't lose anything if you install it as anything you already did will overwrite Patch resources due to the higher priority.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:46 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Skildron]

               Just a little question to all this: What about the IGN EULA? I read it, especially the parts about custom content posted to the IGN networks and the reuse thereof. If my understanding of the english legal text is correct, then it comes down to that you grant the right on all of your submissions to the IGN networks to IGN. So, if anyone has to be asked for the right of reusage of custom content on the nwvault, it would be IGN. By posting content there you make it publicly available for usage.

Please, correct me if I misunderstood those passages in the IGN EULA

Greetings
Skildron
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               Nothing for or against anything in this thread as I am not bothering to read any of it, but I will point out This beta thread where the last post on the first page showed that this entire topic does not belong in the general discussion forum, but does belong down in the NwN 1 Custom Content and Community Expansion Pack.  That "original" post about this entire project, was posted here in the general discussion, and was MOVED by Stanley Woo because it does not belong up here.

The OP should have taken the polite hint about that move in the first place and not have started a NEW thread here, regardless of what version he is discussing.  ANY thread regarding custom content belongs in the forum created for those topics.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Malagant]

               

SHOVA wrote...

Perhaps ShaDo0oW forgot to ask if he could include the Krits work. the Krit does not come out and say it, but does imply that no conversation happened.

The Krit: I do not object to my work being incorporated into this project (I did release it for people to use after all)...

What's the problem here?

You want to use The Krit's post as defense of your position but the only thing taken issue with by The Krit is being listed as a contributor when he obviously was not, most likely a language barrier issue (for us English speakers do have a tendancy to make fluid definitions for established concepts when it suits). Otherwise, it's specifically stated by The Krit that The Krit doesn't care much.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Malagant, 16 décembre 2011 - 10:28 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_UrkOfGreyhawk]

               Yes Skildron. You read that correctly. According to the vault TOS everything on it is distributed at the sole discretion of IGN. A number of excellent CC creators have stopped hosting files there as a result and frankly good riddance as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to upset people, but I also have no intention of spending what little time I have for building trying to get permission to use content. If people have a problem with me using it I'd just as soon they host it elsewhere anyway.

The NWN and NWN 2 EULA contain some interesting provisions as well. By installing the game you agree to cede proprietary rights of any and all custom content created for NWN to Atari.

But you know how it is. The indignation of the truly righteous trumps little things like terms of service when using other peoples bandwidth and data storage or licensng agreements with people who own the IP you're working in.

But, we compromised. IGN is ad-driven after all, and they stood to lose a lot of page views if some of the more popular files changed hosts. As a community we have agreed, as a courtesy (and against my wishes I will add), to allow contributors to request that their work not be integrated to other releases without making a reasonable attempt to get permission from the content creator.

However, as you can see, there remains a small but loud contingent of troublemakers for whom that's not good enough and every chance they get they start strutting their superior morality and calling the rest of the community thieves and pirates. Meanwhile, they cling to IP that is not their own and demand free file storage and bandwidth for transfers. It is, after all, their birthright.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:14 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               

SHOVA wrote...

Perhaps ShaDo0oW forgot to ask if he could include the Krits work. the Krit does not come out and say it, but does imply that no conversation happened.

Implied, correct but not definitive. I may be mistaken, but I believe that The Krit's work in question was released with the understanding that it may be repackaged - I'll have to check his listing.

Pstemarie I find your lack of understanding on how dangerous resubmitting of work is, due to how it was the Q team who started the conversation/uproar in the first place. While you may not agree with it, if I were to resubmit project Q content in a new hak set, without so much as I am going to use it, and did a credit list, as a read me, you would be the first one flipping out. But don't take my word for it, take Qs

To my knowledge, the people who started that whole ownership debacle are no longer associated with Project Q. In the early stages of that sordid I affair I jumped on the bandwagon, but once I'd given it some real thought, I retracted my support.

As for me being the first to flip about my Project Q stuff being used in another package. Lemme shout this so we all understand now: ANYTHING I MAKE IS PUBLIC DOMAIN, USE AS YOU WISH. I really don't know how to make it clearer than that.

Furthermore, we provide the email link so that we may forward requests to use the work that is included in Project Q by independant authors to that author. Anything that occurs after that is solely between the requestor and the author. Those statements only prove that Project Q supports the integrity of it contributors and their work.

Just to be clear Pstemarie, we are talking artwork here, in ShaDo0oWs patch, not just 2da edits, or scripting lines. Saying its ok, from a Q team member, is at least hypocritical, and at most the stupidest thing you have ever posted, should you wish to keep the info listed on the Q faq page true. But, hey I am just whining, and no one cares anyway.

Just to be clear on what I believe:

1. Authors should be asked if their content can be used, repackaged, redistributed.

2. It is the new package's developer that has a responsibility to contact the original author.

3. If every reasonable attempt has been made to contact the original author, but no permission is given and the work is still used, then it is the original author's responsibility to take action to preserve the integrity of their authorship.

Some people seem to be on a crusade here, not because of preserving author's rights, but because of ShaDoOoW's rel;ationship with certain Community members. I wonder which one this falls under...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:30 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               UPDATE for german players and builders:

markuqui reported there is a bug in german talk table as both genders used female texts. That is not corrected and all files were updated. You can either re-download installer or manual archive or simply only dialog.tlk_GE.7z archive which contains only talk tables - in this case you have to same as for manual installation extract the archive into your NWN folder (NOT into tlk folder!!!) and conform overwrites.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Frith5]

               Well said, Pstemarie. Let cool heads prevail. This community, though strong, is old and thinner than I'd like. Now doesn't seem the time to break it further apart over small mistakes. Two things really depress me about this debacle. One, there can be little doubt that serious and tedious hours of work went into ShaDoOow's effort here, yet a tiny issue that the two principal parties (ShaDoOoW and The Krit) have already addressed and concluded, is being bruited about and waved like a flag over the community. If I get in a squabble with Joe, and Joe and I work it out, I don't want some interloper keeping it going and stirring it up! Let it go. Two, the dragging of old issues out to justify this attack on ShaDoOow, when those issues have died down. Let it go. To me, NWN is beloved, and I still get a huge kick out of making cc, and being a part of the community, and I LOVE seeing new things people have put themselves into (such as his 'patch') released for anyone who wants to use it. But I am not blind. The game is old, the community thinned (yet blessedly newcomers of astonishing talent continue to arise, like Sen, Zwerk, and OldTimeRadio, to name just a few). The result of unnecessary infighting, ego-driven attacks, and personally motivated trolling can only be bad news for the old gal. I want to see the community endure, and I have no doubt new and exciting things are still waiting for the community. Let's not <insert favorite profanity here> it up over petty things.

Regards,
JFK