Community Patch 1.70 final release

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Stealing is stealing.
I do not condone stealing, nor do I support it.
There is no amount of argument that you can give to change my mind, I learned as a child Stealing is wrong, Period. Sure not everyone feels the same way, perhaps that is why the world is a mess right now. As to did ShaDo0oW steal, borrowed or whatever, I am leaning more to a repackaging of others work, added with his own. A dangerous slope, with CC, here, due to the huge fiasco from a few years back. Those who were not here for it, people got mad, some left. At this point in NWN life, we can not afford to loose more CC makers. So  I would rather not support suspect submissions, then drive another one away. ShaDo0oW, confirmed that there is an exception as you call it wyldhunt1,
ShaDo0oW wrote:
Also I couldn't wait for users whose are already gone from NWN like kurairyu to give me permission, they are simply gone and no longer cares about NWN as far as I know.

Kurairyu, made the PC wonderful hands.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_wyldhunt1]

               I think we may paint our lines at different spots.
 
By your logic, wikipedia.org could never exist. It is all just a compilation of others works. Those others are given credit at the bottom of the page with a link to their research or article. It is not expected that every one of those people get asked permission to incorporate their research in to a public work. That would be silly. I think the same is true for most of the fixes in this patch. As long as it is available for public use, it should be assumed that the public will use it. Just give credit where credit is due.
 
I also think it would be unnecessarily limiting to the community as a whole if no one was ever allowed to do anything at all with any community contributions from anyone after they leave the community and are no longer available.
I know that if I submitted some Hall of Fame contribution to the vault and then left to do something else, I would be upset if I found out that everyone stopped using my submission that I'd worked so hard on because everyone was afraid to update it to the newest patch version in my absence.
ShaDoOow is not stealing anything. He is giving full credits for everything that he includes.
If you can show me evidence of a content creator asking ShaDoOow to remove their content and him refusing to remove their content, then I'll agree with you.
Until then, you'd have to ban every combo-hak on the vault.
I guarantee that very very few of those "All in One Head Pack" authors asked every head modeler on the vault before they combined them all. That's true of nearly every combo hak and every PW custom hak.
I think that ShaDoOow has given a reasonable effort to credit authors, and ask permission.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par wyldhunt1, 15 décembre 2011 - 11:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               You are stepping over the line, Shova. Be careful. What Shadow has done is not stealing by any definition of the term.

(1) All parts of the community patch are in the public domain.
(2) All of the community contributions in this work appear to have been attributed to the original authors.

So there are no rights that are being infringed upon here. Nor is there anything that is being stolen - certainly not credit for this work.

If you are concerned about community unity, I highly recommend backing off. Nothing in your tirade here is constructive, nor is relevant to this project. It is however becoming increasingly inflamatory, as you appear to be implying that Shadooow stole other's work.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Frith5]

               On the subject of ShaDoOw's work, I say bravo to the guy, for at least trying to assemble and release all this stuff. I am always on the side of those who give, and rarely on the side of those who worry too much about someone 'taking' their stuff. I totally respect ANYONE who does want to try to restrict their stuff. Completely. It's just not me.

Way to go, ShaDoOw! Thanks for your work!

Regards,
JFK

edited after a bit of thought... '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Frith5, 15 décembre 2011 - 11:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Wyldhunt1, you don't have to ban every combo hak on the vault, only the ones who added others content without permission, and yes there are a lot of them, and no I do not use them.
henesua my tirade is not inflammatory, neither is my position on what is stealing. Shado0oW has responded that he did not get every CC authors permission to use the CC in his patch. He posted that that non permission content goes further than a 2da edit, or a script line. its actual textures, which Wyldhunt1 even said crossed the line. I believe it is wrong to do so. I believe he can either A, obtain the permission to use it, or B, remove it without effecting his patch, thereby ending any possible complaint from anyone, or C ignore it, use it, and get the fallout from it. C is happening now, Kail accused him of stealing, I happen to think it isn't something I want to use, and certainly won't recommend.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Vibrant Penumbra]

               Edit: oops! Did I say that?

Sooooorry. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Vibrant Penumbra, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:14 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               SHOVA, you are acting in a mean spirited manner. You are incapable of justifying these claims of "stealing" because there has been no theft. You are creating a problem where there were none. I suggest that you desist from harassing shadooow.

Great project, Shadoow, as I have said before. I am sorry that others would rather tear you down, than support your efforts. I do appreciate what you have done. Thank you.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Geez... this old argument again?  The debate continues to attract vastly polar opinions, which is actually a GOOD thing.  Makes the blood flow through those portions of the cerebrum that have been starving for oxygenation for some time.

But to be frank... ALL community content could be considered stealing, if you chose to view it that way.  Its end product all stemmed from Bioware designers' framework.  No one has invented a database dynamic to replace 2das so just using them is "borrowing" (notice how I just morphed the interpretation?) intellectual property from the owners.  I also don't see anyone rebuilding all the Bioware-developed scripting from scratch.  I mean every piece of script, not just those that have some technical appeal.

The internet itself is based on copying and reproducing without obtaining official permission. Just look around you.  Upholding copyrights is an ongoing battle, essentially because it is gradually being defined by a legal system and one that holds no true claims to internationality.  But I digress...

Now, I think it is a COURTESY to ask permission of an author to gain some so-called "official" license to use their offerings for another purpose.  Some claim that it is, rather, a REQUIREMENT based on the Vault guidelines (surprised no one has reposted them in this thread yet *lol*).  As in most matters, rules are constantly open to interpretation and we have courts to help mitigate disputes of this nature.  Apparently the Vault rules have transcended normal social ethics and established some sort of absolute.  Interesting.  No statute of limitations. I guess the licensing agreement lasts until infinity (or at least until the site closes down).

Personally, if/when I ever submit to the Vault anything remotely based on anyone else's work, I would take all measures that are practical and pragmatic in contacting the original owners to get TIMELY input, in keeping with the view (my own, naturally) that we are probably witnessing the last gasps of the game's energy today and would seek to expedite the process before the end comes.  Many contributors have already moved on to other goals in their lives and in so doing they have broken the licensing chain by becoming unreachable and thereby yielding their authorship veto power (if there really is such a thing).   They should have appointed power of attorney before leaving.  It's relatively inexpensive. Any legal assistant can process the paperwork. No appointment necessary.

If nothing else, at least there will be an historical record of ShaDoOoW's fine work while the b*tching continues.  Ain't life grand? '>  Huzzah!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               

henesua wrote...

SHOVA, you are acting in a mean spirited manner. You are incapable of justifying these claims of "stealing" because there has been no theft. You are creating a problem where there were none. I suggest that you desist from harassing shadooow.

Great project, Shadoow, as I have said before. I am sorry that others would rather tear you down, than support your efforts. I do appreciate what you have done. Thank you.

Since you are not here, can't see me and do not know me, you have no idea what manner I am posting in.
Theft, stealing, or borrowing is not something I do. That is not mean spirited, that is fact.
Using others work, without permission, in the case here, re-submitting it combined with other work, may not be what the original author intended. That author may well call it stealing, but since they are not here, their feelings on it do not matter.
That can be called theft, stealing or it can be ignored. It all depends on you own moral sense. Some of this community do not believe that Repackaging of work without permission should happen.
When its ignored it can cause tension. 
Because of past instances of that very thing, we have lost CC creators. 

None of the above is harrassment. Now henesua, I suggest you drop telling me what I should do. As you are not helping the situation, mearly trolling it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               That is not theft by any definition.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_UrkOfGreyhawk]

               Ughhh. There's always one little nitwit spoiling to ruin things. Shova if anyone here is trolling it's YOU. If 1.70 is "stealing" any of YOUR content simply say so and I have no doubt Shadow will happily remove it. Otherwise STFU and mind your own business. Nobody here appointed you sheriff.

Great work shadow. Posting this as priority news on NeverwinterConnections.com.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

wyldhunt1 wrote...

It's the exact same thing. There is no artistic skill that may be lost or gained from the reproduction.
The reason the authors deserve credit (Which ShaDoOow gives them) is because they were the ones smart enough to figure it out.
Once that knowledge is public, it is not a matter of "Did you steal my 2da?" Everyone's 2da's will be the same because they all have the same knowledge. It is a matter of giving credit to the smart person who figured it out. Not the files themselves.

Yes thats exacty how I see it myself.

The exception would be model/texture/etc stuff where artistic talent can make the end result different when reproduced.
ShaDoOow
has said that in those cases, he has reproduced them himself or gotten
permission (With an exception he admits to and, I assume, must be worked
out because AD isn't here complaining.)

For this stuff, the really custom work, I am willing to remove it if original author contact me he don't want his content to appear in this project. But really there isn't much of it. Due to the project focus, almost everything can be recreated very easily once you know what was broken. The restrictions I have set up are there just to secure that this project won't get swallowed by other similar compilation like CEP since the focuses of both projects are completely different. Of course, this doesn't apply for new submissions with intent to fix a bug in community patch, or change Patch behavior. I also don't for example demand any credits for any custom usage of my new spell engine I created - that would be really silly. You can freely use, rename, modify and even resubmit (if modified) my spell engine (that is 70_inc_spells library) in your custom content even without need to use or credit Patch 1.70 Project, provided you don't claim its your work.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:51 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               My 2 cents on the emote icons:  Others can put them into their own haks, so long as credit is given for the original work (I also appreciate comments, feedback, and sometimes votes on stuff I've made that other people have used)...which has been done in this case.

I also don't mind them being included because it's a change that can only improve on the default GUI.  The default emote radials all have the same uninformative icon and you can only tell them apart by holding the mouse over each one (unless you've memorized all of them by position).  Alterations by the community are also the reason the folks at BioWare made some alterations to the file naming for them in the last official patch. '>  I wouldn't want my spell, feat, class or DM icons included, because I think the rest of the GUI should really be up to the personal preference (and override folder) of each player.

As far as the other contributions from the community, I see credits are given and are pretty easy to locate for those interested.  I think if an html page or document were included with hyperlinks to the Vault page (when possible) for every source, it might smooth things over a little.  I'd even copy the links and add them to the little "patch 1.70" page that's on neverwinternights.info.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Ughhh. There's always one little nitwit spoiling to ruin things. Shova if anyone here is trolling it's YOU. If 1.70 is "stealing" any of YOUR content simply say so and I have no doubt Shadow will happily remove it. Otherwise STFU and mind your own business. Nobody here appointed you sheriff.

Great work shadow. Posting this as priority news on NeverwinterConnections.com.

and no one appointed you forum moderator. 
And I never said he was stealing. I said those who actual made the stuff in his patch who did not get asked for permission might feel that he was.
perhaps if you had read my postings and understood them, you would know that.
Shadow posted he used CC without consent
I posted I would not use his patch without it. I still see no reason to use it. My opinion, is just as relevent as yours URK, or anyone elses who doesn't agree. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               OMG...do you really have any idea what you sound like? "Waaa...blah...blah...someone might think he stole something...waaa...waaa...I never said this....blah....blah....my opinions irrelevant and so's yours since it doesn't agree with mine...<more whining>.

How hard is it to just say I'm not using something? Quite frankly who gives a rats arse what you use or don't use? I don't care, I'm sure ShaDoOoW doesn't care, and its pretty safe to say that three quarters of the Community doesn't care.

Pretty sad when personal issues are aired in a not so veiled attempt to recruit people to your cause.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 16 décembre 2011 - 03:01 .