Considering class changes for balance reasons

[Legacy_BCH]

               

Elhanan wrote...

RE: Fighters - Personally, I do not believe more Feats are required for the class, as many, many designs simply take as few lvls as needed already. Instead, to encourage a majority or pure build, perhaps offering a single bonus for doing this would be easier to implement and balance with the other classes, and bonus XP for questing as a single class.

On Aenea, a pure build is called a Paragon of the class, and there is a reward at 40th for achieving this title, plus the hourly bonus XP already given for anyone remaining single or dual classed. Sunjectively, some bonuses seem better than others, but for now I am leaving the specifics for server debates. What I really like is that every class is offered something as a reward for trying a Pure class design. and the bonus XP offered for each indv character that avoids the triple class or higher designs.

Yeah, this is the direction I'm leaning now.  I'm thinking maybe bonuses at levels 8, 12, 16, etc.  Small bonuses for anyone with that fighter level, plus extra bonuses for anyone who has only fighter levels.

Is there somewhere on the Vault I can look at the scripts/bonuses you use in Aenea?  That sounds like it might be food for thought.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

[snip]

I say, ask first if noone can guess consequences/disadvantages then you are heading in right direction.

I completely agree.  This is the main reason I posted here to get a wide range of opinions.  Extra pairs of eyes on the situation, as they say.

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Planning ahead and evaluating the consequences of the changes one wants to implement is crucial.

Again, completely agreed.  I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm going off half-cocked.

WebShaman wrote...

I am not suggesting that one be able to think of everything - just that one should be knowledgeable enough of the D&D system (and it's NWN counterpart) to understand what reprecussions changes are likely to have.

If one goes about it blindly, one is bound to fall into the "loop of chaos".

Absolutely with you on that one.  I'm much better versed in PnP D&D* than I am in NWN, and I know there are very significant differences between the two.  Another reason I posted here to get feedback from others.

WebShaman, was there something that led you to believe I wasn't doing the "due diligence" that you suggested?

(* - All the way back to AD&D 1st Ed in 1981! [/bragging] )
               
               

               

                     Modifié par BCH, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:00 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               I think also that some consequences are gonna be evident only after implementing the changes and testing them out. Planning ahead is of course necessary, but at some point you gotta get something done and see how it works out for real. And then adjust it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

I think also that some consequences are gonna be evident only after implementing the changes and testing them out. Planning ahead is of course necessary, but at some point you gotta get something done and see how it works out for real. And then adjust it.

Exactly.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Magical Master]

               

BCH wrote...

Yeah, this is the direction I'm leaning now.  I'm thinking maybe bonuses at levels 8, 12, 16, etc.  Small bonuses for anyone with that fighter level, plus extra bonuses for anyone who has only fighter levels.

Is there somewhere on the Vault I can look at the scripts/bonuses you use in Aenea?  That sounds like it might be food for thought.

If you lay out some specific bonuses you'd like I can probably toss some code together quickly.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

WebShaman, was there something that led you to believe I wasn't doing the "due diligence" that you suggested?

Nope.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

BCH wrote...

Magical Master wrote...

BCH wrote...

I will have to give a lot more thought to it, but adding a little bonus AB, AC, and damage for characters who take a lot of levels of Fighter - especially characters who only take levels of Fighter - is really tempting to me.  I'm not keen on a bonus that vanishes suddenly if you take a level in another class, but like I said, I have a lot of thinking to do on this.

Er, aren't the bolded parts contradictory?  On one hand, you're very tempted to give pure fighters a special bonus so they aren't as far behind...but on the other hand, you want that bonus to be available to non-pure fighters?

They absolutely are contradictory, which is one reason why I still have a lot of thinking to do on this.

They don't need to be contradictory.  For example you could give a scaling bonus to a character based on his highest class level.  Thus multiclasses would have a lesser bonus, but prestige classes can still get a significant bonus if you try to go near pure in them.  This however does have some issues like exalted sorceress who would take minimal levels in paladin and monk and thus get a large bonus for being near pure.

You can also implement a "bonus" through a custom feat, as a use restricted ability.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BCH]

               

Magical Master wrote...

If you lay out some specific bonuses you'd like I can probably toss some code together quickly.

Thanks!  I appreciate the offer, but I think I can handle the scripting.  It's pondering the specific bonuses that's going to be the tough work for me.  Like many have pointed out, making changes like this can have a cascading effect, so that's the part I'm being most cautious about.

I already have a bit of customization that is in place in my module where I imagine bonuses being given to Fighters could be added pretty easily.  (That existing customization being: bonus AC to characters based on what items they have in hand and their Parry skill ranks.  A very large can of worms that needs a lot of testing before I'll be sure of it.)

WhiZard wrote...

They don't need to be contradictory.  For example you could give a scaling bonus to a character based on his highest class level.  Thus multiclasses would have a lesser bonus, but prestige classes can still get a significant bonus if you try to go near pure in them.

The part that's contradictory is the part where I don't like bonuses that are part of the character one level, then disappear because the character takes a level in another class, because they are no longer single-class, or because their highest class is now a different class, etc. 

It's purely a matter of taste on my part - disliking a bonus that disappears as a character grows - and I may just have to learn to live with it, because I haven't figured out a way to make it work yet.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               BTW if I found out I would like to boost someone, I trying to follow the dnd 3.5 edition rules. I read whats different there, compare with what can be achieved in NWN, how does it already works and then decide. For example fighters in 3.5 rules (possibly in 3.0 not sure) can get greater weapon focus since level 8 which grants them +1ab, and greater weapon specialization at 12lvl that grants them another +2dmg, also there is more useable feats so this itself is an advantage.

Knowing that you could try to scale the ab/dmg from specialization/focus by fighter levels if you really like to see builds with more fighter. Or to change some unused feats like improved parry, mounted archery and mounted combat to work like those "greater" versions. So when you take them provide you have enought levels you would get some ab/dmg bonus - this way it wouldnt be so easy and match more rules.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

BCH wrote...

WhiZard wrote...

They don't need to be contradictory.  For example you could give a scaling bonus to a character based on his highest class level.  Thus multiclasses would have a lesser bonus, but prestige classes can still get a significant bonus if you try to go near pure in them.

The part that's contradictory is the part where I don't like bonuses that are part of the character one level, then disappear because the character takes a level in another class, because they are no longer single-class, or because their highest class is now a different class, etc. 

It's purely a matter of taste on my part - disliking a bonus that disappears as a character grows - and I may just have to learn to live with it, because I haven't figured out a way to make it work yet.

If all classes go through the same "bonus" type then multiclassing wouldn't cause loss if you are basing the "bonus" magnitude on the highest class level.  If classes need their own individual "bonus" type,  then you could have these types scale quadratically instead of linearly as to the class level.

For example a "bonus" ability duration could be (x^2)/2 + x seconds.  Thus for level 40 (pure) the duration would be
14 turns (typically 7 game hours), while at level 30 the duration would be 8 turns (typically 4 game hours).  The power of the ability could be the number of turns from (x^2)/2 + x seconds, thus it would take 10 levels before the "bonus" ability would begin to show any result.

EDIT missed a /2 in the example
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WhiZard, 01 octobre 2011 - 05:30 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_avado]

               I am not sure if you are aware or not, but alot of this has been done for you already (and for MANY years).

http://www.nwnprc.com/

Players resource conpendium has EK and a whole host of other goodies.  You will still need to balance it by not allowing some prestiges (lich comes to mind), but how can you loose?   
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

avado wrote...

I am not sure if you are aware or not, but alot of this has been done for you already (and for MANY years).

http://www.nwnprc.com/

Players resource conpendium has EK and a whole host of other goodies.  You will still need to balance it by not allowing some prestiges (lich comes to mind), but how can you loose?   

Less is sometimes better than more. I found out PRC too messy, buggy and caused lots of peoples to leave my server. I dont know if they solved all those issues I had back in version 3.1 but I know they added even more stuff many of I didnt liked - too much various spellsword baseclasses so it actually leaves a question who would take a non casting class in the end. There is definitely many goodies, but if you are able to rather rework them on your own.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BCH]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

BTW if I found out I would like to boost someone, I trying to follow the dnd 3.5 edition rules. I read whats different there, compare with what can be achieved in NWN, how does it already works and then decide. For example fighters in 3.5 rules (possibly in 3.0 not sure) can get greater weapon focus since level 8 which grants them +1ab, and greater weapon specialization at 12lvl that grants them another +2dmg, also there is more useable feats so this itself is an advantage.

Knowing that you could try to scale the ab/dmg from specialization/focus by fighter levels if you really like to see builds with more fighter. Or to change some unused feats like improved parry, mounted archery and mounted combat to work like those "greater" versions. So when you take them provide you have enought levels you would get some ab/dmg bonus - this way it wouldnt be so easy and match more rules.

Yeah, that's the way I'm going to go, I just have to decide on the exact bonuses.  I also like the idea of using those three existing feats that have been neglected.  Thanks!

WhiZard wrote...

If all classes go through the same "bonus" type then multiclassing wouldn't cause loss if you are basing the "bonus" magnitude on the highest class level.  If classes need their own individual "bonus" type,  then you could have these types scale quadratically instead of linearly as to the class level.

For example a "bonus" ability duration could be (x^2)/2 + x seconds.  Thus for level 40 (pure) the duration would be 14 turns (typically 7 game hours), while at level 30 the duration would be 8 turns (typically 4 game hours).  The power of the ability could be the number of turns from (x^2)/2 + x seconds, thus it would take 10 levels before the "bonus" ability would begin to show any result.

Nice!  That's definitely how I (now!) plan to determine the duration of most feats I create or alter.  '>

avado wrote...

I am not sure if you are aware or not, but alot of this has been done for you already (and for MANY years).

http://www.nwnprc.com/

Players resource conpendium has EK and a whole host of other goodies.  You will still need to balance it by not allowing some prestiges (lich comes to mind), but how can you loose?

I looked at the PRC a couple of years ago, when I was first starting out in NWN, and the complexity was daunting to me back then.  I will give it another look; it may not scare me as much now.

However, I fear that might be the opposite direction from what I'm trying to do, in that I mostly want to change the existing classes.  EK is the only new class I want to add at this point.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Magical Master]

               

BCH wrote...

Nice!  That's definitely how I (now!) plan to determine the duration of most feats I create or alter.

Why?  For example, a level 15 fighter gets 17 seconds out of it.  A level 20 fighter gets 60 seconds.  A level 40 fighter gets 840 seconds.

If it's a minor bonus due to it being a long duration at level 40, then it's worthless at lower levels and often not even worth activating.  If it's a large activated bonus, you run the risk of the high level versions being too powerful.

In addition, a level 35 fighter would still get 647 seconds.  That's probably worth just as much as 840 seconds (unless you have a battle that actually lasts a full 840 seconds and the bonus is needed the whole time).  35 levels being more than sufficient allows for the multi-classing that you're trying to avoid in the first place.

It seems to me that you're wanting to reward "pure" or "mostly pure" characters without literally forcing them to  continue in that class or removing the reward if they multi-class.  That more or less correct?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Magical Master, 02 octobre 2011 - 04:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_BCH]

               Magical Master, I appreciate the help you've given me, but I think we're starting to wander outside the scope of why I posted these questions.

I'm not saying you're wrong.  Far from it; your warning about my idea to add more fighter bonus feats was exactly why I posted this.

I'm just not prepared to wrangle the math right now.  First, I need to get a complete idea of what I want to accomplish, and I'm not sure I have that yet.  I definitely would like to see pure Fighters stack up evenly against Fighter/Rogues and Fighter/Champions, but I suspect there's a lot more measurements of balance that I haven't thought of yet.

But still, I'm willing to call this thread a success at what I wanted to get from it.  Thanks, all.  '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Androrc]

               Adding the Eldritch Knight is a good idea. It's one of the simplest PnP prestige classes to add, and is an interesting option for characters to have.