Considering class changes for balance reasons

[Legacy_BCH]

               I'm contemplating making several changes to classes in my VPnP module, to make classes more balanced and make some more attractive to players.  I figured it would be a good idea to mention these changes here, in case anyone sees a situation where "if you do that, then the X class is obsolete" or something similar. 

I'm considering:

1.  Making Hide and Move Silently class skills for Barbarians.  (This has a Conan-esque feel to me, and I hope it will make the class more interesting without adding to the areas where Barbs are already strong.)

2.  Giving Fighters one bonus feat every level from 10 to 20, instead of just even levels.  (So there is more of a reason to stick with Fighter instead of heading straight for Champion of Torm.)

3.  Giving Bards 8 skill points per level.  (Actually 7, since every Bard maxes out Perform, right?  This seems like it will make them more balanced with Rogues.  I figure they are no threat to the popularity of the Rogue class, since very little compares with the utility of Sneak Attack.)

4.  Giving Shifters Move Silently as a class skill.  (I can't figure out why they have Hide but not Move Silently.)

5.  Giving Red Dragon Disciples extra arcane spells per day on the odd-numbered levels like a Pale Master gets.  (This has the interesting effect of making the RDD go back and take a level of Bard or Sorcerer every now and then, so they can add and drop spells.)

6.  Adding the Eldritch Knight prestige class from PnP D&D:
http://www.d20srd.or...ritchKnight.htm
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               By giving barbarians Hide and Move Silently, they start to encroach on areas in which rangers shine.  "Barbarians are brave, even reckless warriors, and their great strength and heartiness makes them well suited for adventure."  That doesn't suggest stealth.  It is the rangers who "are skilled stalkers and hunters who make their home in the wilderness."  Not that you have to stick with the NWN descriptions of the classes, but it's a good place to start if you are trying to make each class unique.  Conan-like characters can be achieved easily within the given rules with a multi-class Barbarian / Rogue.

If you have Fighters with a lot of extra bonus feats, exclusive of how much more powerful they get, everyone who plays a Fighter is probably going to have pretty much the same Fighter- they will all have all the combat-oriented feats.  If you think CoT is an encroachment on the Fighter, maybe it makes more sense to increase the requirements for taking it.  (Requirement of Divine spellcasting ability?  5 ranks of a non-class skill tied to Wis or Int or Cha- such as Persuade or Spellcraft?  A feat or two not normally on the combat-maximized Fighter's list- Iron Will maybe?)

I think the Bard Song and Sorceror spells actually balance the Bard pretty well against the Rogue.

If you give something to RDD, I'd think you should take away something as well.  Those ability score adds are pretty sick.  Now that I have discovered the RDD, I have the urge to add it to any character concept now.

I played a Shifter once, and having Move Silently would have been nice.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_philty_]

               Hi BCH,

while I applaud attempts at bringing more balance to classes, I do believe the original ones are not so imbalanced - except for the Monk: Some classes are actually meant to be a support to others - a solo Rogue will have a hard time

1. Barbarians - as above, I do not think H & MS  are typical Barbarian class-skills. But the only time I played a Barbarian was a half-orc to become RDD, so I do not usually play this class.

2 The Fighter thing is ok. I can speculate on how many builds (pre-epic, as I do not count such builds...) incldue just 4 levels of fighter...

3 I dont see a problem with that, but then I dont see the need to change Bards at all. This changes is actually marginal only.

4 Never tried Shifter, but I see the point. Conversely, I never understood why Monks get Listen but not Spot as skill (I think they should).

5 Am not familiar with EK, read too little about them.

Monk is actually the only inclusion I'd advise to you, they get too many feats for free (all those immunities, SR, concealment, Cleave, AC bonus from Wis and from every 5 levels,  etc...). I do believe Monks who choose Focus Unarmed should be able to choose Specialization too, but I think some feats could be removed (Cleave and the immunities except for Mind Spells at higher levels). But these are my thoughts.

EDIT: Oh, maybe Clerics too! My idea of a Cleric is that of a Healer who has powers against Undead and some other evil. In NWN they seem to be the best melee AND the best Mages around! They have a spell that makes them like fighters BA-wise and another instant Death that is NOT considered Death-sell (so no immunity against). VERY unbalanced IMO...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par philty , 21 septembre 2011 - 03:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               I like the suggested fixes of 3.5, and eliminate Restricted Skills; making them all Cross-class, and offer Bards 6 Skill Pts each Lvl. Between them, I prefer the latter.

My recommendation is not to mess with the other guidelines too much, as most can be achieved by Multi-class designs. This leaves the control in the Players hands rather than having to make notes on House rules.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               You know...even feat-starving clerics and forcing them to split abilities between WIS & another significant ability, they are still essentially an automatic to most all non-arcane builds.  There are few non-arcane builds that wouldn't benefit from cleric levels.  It would be a unique experience to play on a server where they aren't such an obvious choice for multiclassing.  The only server I've played that negated most of their boni was one with artificially-enhanced monster spell saves and SRs where NO caster had any chance, but that was not specifically a balance measure for cleric, just all casters in general.   Clerics were still the best to use in a melee or zen build.

Interesting that cleric was not mentioned in your initial post.  I would have thought it would make the top of the list.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__Guile]

               All classes were given flaws for a reason, so there would be no super class / build.

The entire reason TSR gave each class a weakness (usually combat related) was so that they didn't become too big for their britches, requiring PCs to seek assistance / interact with other players, so that the game could be more socialable than a one man army show, where one build could solo all day long.

Unfortunately, some builds can still solo an entire module, depending upon the module.  However, on action servers, the builder usually builds the module to encourage group play, as soloing on some action servers is next to impossible without great gear!  I have found that low magic worlds only amplify the power of Arcane & Divine Casters.

A cleric in a low magic world is going to definitely be a powerful character, especially a wizard/sorcerer with Epic Warding which grants +20/50 Damage Reduction, whoosh!  Casters are by far the most powerful builds there are, period, and the only time that isn't true, is when the module builder specifically makes them extremely weak by lowering magic or nerfing the heck out of spells.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _Guile, 21 septembre 2011 - 05:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

BCH wrote...

I'm contemplating making several changes to classes in my VPnP module, to make classes more balanced and make some more attractive to players.  I figured it would be a good idea to mention these changes here, in case anyone sees a situation where "if you do that, then the X class is obsolete" or something similar. 

I'm considering:

1.  Making Hide and Move Silently class skills for Barbarians.  (This has a Conan-esque feel to me, and I hope it will make the class more interesting without adding to the areas where Barbs are already strong.)

2.  Giving Fighters one bonus feat every level from 10 to 20, instead of just even levels.  (So there is more of a reason to stick with Fighter instead of heading straight for Champion of Torm.)

3.  Giving Bards 8 skill points per level.  (Actually 7, since every Bard maxes out Perform, right?  This seems like it will make them more balanced with Rogues.  I figure they are no threat to the popularity of the Rogue class, since very little compares with the utility of Sneak Attack.)

4.  Giving Shifters Move Silently as a class skill.  (I can't figure out why they have Hide but not Move Silently.)

5.  Giving Red Dragon Disciples extra arcane spells per day on the odd-numbered levels like a Pale Master gets.  (This has the interesting effect of making the RDD go back and take a level of Bard or Sorcerer every now and then, so they can add and drop spells.)

6.  Adding the Eldritch Knight prestige class from PnP D&D:
http://www.d20srd.or...ritchKnight.htm

1) would rather improve his rage so it gives ab/dmg/disc/conc/hps and optionally fear immunity, barbarian doesnt have these skills per DnD rules but he has Survival skill which would be very nice to implement (you could seen usage of this skill in IWD2)

2) no need, fighter has weapon specialization, really its the best choice for Zen archer clerics, no need to improve him further, not every class have to shine pure, fighter is the best MC class

3) Bard is the most powerfull class if combined with RDD and full BAB class, he doesnt need more skill points, he gets up to +15bonus to all skills and +15 to combat skills if he use curse song on enemy (which decrease his discipline, concentration, spot, listen...)

4) hmm why not

5) I would give these bonus spells to bard but sorc could get them

6) absolutely, I added this class as well, its a bit overpowered though
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BCH]

               Wow, thanks!  That's a lot of good food for thought.  It may take me several posts to make all the replies I want to make.

Regarding change #1, the Barbarian: 

I am also concerned about how Barbarians stack up against Rangers, but I was actually worried that Barbs were not good enough compared to Rangers, sort of the opposite of what Mystery X wrote.  Let me run my thoughts by you, to see if you can point out something I'm missing.

I see Barbarians having 6 perks that makes them distinct from other melee types:  d12 HD, Taunt skill, Rage (a biggie), Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, and Damage Reduction.

Comparitively, I see Rangers has having 9 perks: stealth skills and Trackless Step, Search, Set Trap, Spot and Listen, Animal Companions, Druid-like spells, Favored Enemies, Dual Wield, and Animal Empathy.

I figure if Barbs get Hide and Move Silently, it closes the gap a little, but they will never be as good as Rangers in the stealth arena because they lack Spot, Trackless Step, and Search.  Rangers will still be better at stealth than Barbs if they wish to build that way.

I imagine many of you see it differently.  Can you elaborate further?

ShaDoOoW, what is IDW2?  I'm only familiar with the Survival skill in the D20 SRD.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par BCH, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               One should not equate Skills seperately, for if you did the Bard might be considered OP. Having a good Skill set is a plus, but should not be considered more than a single bonus.

Barbarians are also listed as having two perks that also include penalties: Rage and Taunt. The latter leaves the Barbarian flat-footed, and the former can actually kill the PC if it fades before healing up enough. If one wants to model their PC after Conan, toss in a few lvls of Rogue, as this is what the brigand leader was according to REH materials. IMO.

If one wants to improve the Barbarian in NWN, removing the +12 Attribute restriction seems to help on Aenea.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               

BCH wrote...

Wow, thanks!  That's a lot of good food for thought.  It may take me several posts to make all the replies I want to make.

Regarding change #1, the Barbarian: 

I am also concerned about how Barbarians stack up against Rangers, but I was actually worried that Barbs were not good enough compared to Rangers, sort of the opposite of what Mystery X wrote.  Let me run my thoughts by you, to see if you can point out something I'm missing.

I see Barbarians having 6 perks that makes them distinct from other melee types:  d12 HD, Taunt skill, Rage (a biggie), Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, and Damage Reduction.

Comparitively, I see Rangers has having 9 perks: stealth skills and Trackless Step, Search, Set Trap, Spot and Listen, Animal Companions, Druid-like spells, Favored Enemies, Dual Wield, and Animal Empathy.

I figure if Barbs get Hide and Move Silently, it closes the gap a little, but they will never be as good as Rangers in the stealth arena because they lack Spot, Trackless Step, and Search.  Rangers will still be better at stealth than Barbs if they wish to build that way.

I imagine many of you see it differently.  Can you elaborate further?

Barbarians stack well against Rangers, I think, because Barbarian abilities are more focused toward damage dealing, while Ranger abilities are more focused toward some finesse.  If you want a damage-dealing alternative to a Fighter, Barbarian is a good choice.  If you want a character that plays a little more of a chess game, then you have Ranger.

If you still felt that Barbarians need an extra perk, just in keeping with D&D concepts, giving them access to Spot and maybe Search seems more appropriate.  According to their description, Barbarians are supposed to have a 6th sense in detecting danger.  Spot and maybe Search seem to be two skills that fit into that ability to detect danger.

Edit: One other thing to consider: While the Ranger has access to all those skills, it's hard to build a character who can actually make use of all of them.  Animal Empathy, Set Trap (and Craft Trap with it?), Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Listen, Spot, Search- that's 7 or 8 skills for 4 + Int skill points, and that's not even leaving room for Discipline and Concentration.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Mystery X, 21 septembre 2011 - 09:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Magical Master]

               

1.  Making Hide and Move Silently class skills for Barbarians.  (This has a Conan-esque feel to me, and I hope it will make the class more interesting without adding to the areas where Barbs are already strong.)

2.  Giving Fighters one bonus feat every level from 10 to 20, instead of just even levels.  (So there is more of a reason to stick with Fighter instead of heading straight for Champion of Torm.)

3.  Giving Bards 8 skill points per level.  (Actually 7, since every Bard maxes out Perform, right?  This seems like it will make them more balanced with Rogues.  I figure they are no threat to the popularity of the Rogue class, since very little compares with the utility of Sneak Attack.)

4.  Giving Shifters Move Silently as a class skill.  (I can't figure out why they have Hide but not Move Silently.)

5.  Giving Red Dragon Disciples extra arcane spells per day on the odd-numbered levels like a Pale Master gets.  (This has the interesting effect of making the RDD go back and take a level of Bard or Sorcerer every now and then, so they can add and drop spells.)

6.  Adding the Eldritch Knight prestige class from PnP D&D:
http://www.d20srd.or...ritchKnight.htm

1. As others have said, Barbarians don't need/deserve Hide/Move Silently.  If you want to improve Barbarians, buff their rage (such as changing the STR/CON to be AB/Damage/Temp HP).

2. That would actually encourage CoT *even more.*  Normally any combination of Fighter/CoT would give 10 feats in the epic levels (11 if you do something like an 11/9 or 13/7 split).  If you instead did Fighter 10/CoT 10 pre-epic, you'd get 15 feats in the epic levels now.  Aka, you're better off trying to use those Fighter 11-20 levels in epic levels.  If you want to encourage more fighters not using CoT, give something like a 1 damage increase every 5 levels starting at level 10.  If you want to encourage pure fighters, give something like a 2 AB/2 damage bonus starting at level 10 as long as fighter levels = character level.

3. If anything, 6 skill points max.  Bard song is already brokenly good.

4. Not a bad idea.

5. People already generally only take 10 RDD levels.  I don't see how that would help.  Incidentally, doing something like halving the rate at which they get armor (such as levels 5 and 10 only instead of 1, 5, 8, and 10) might be a good idea.

6. No comment.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

BCH wrote...

ShaDoOoW, what is IDW2?  I'm only familiar with the Survival skill in the D20 SRD.

Icewind Dale 2 rpg game on infinity engine from bioware, there is Survival skill and its uses, I didnt knew you are familiar with this skill so this game could be very good example of what is it good for. But you are so no prob.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I would propose not doing any changes at all.  Instead, go to the PnP roots and try to implement them as accurately as possible.

The main problem with changing the D&D system is that it is like a chain reaction - one small change can set off a number of different imbalances, that tend to snowball as more changes get implemented to offset these imbalances.

I would also suggest asking legends of making such changes - like FunkySwerve.  The Higher Ground Legendary System and all the changes that they made had to take into account such things.  I believe it took the HG team years to get things balanced (correct me if I am wrong here, Funky).

The PRC team implemented a LOT of D&D material from the PnP sources.  So there is a lot in there that one can look at, if one is looking for material that is closer to their PnP counterparts.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Magical Master]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I would propose not doing any changes at all.  Instead, go to the PnP roots and try to implement them as accurately as possible.

Isn't that in itself a change?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I would propose not doing any changes at all.  Instead, go to the PnP roots and try to implement them as accurately as possible.

And would that work well for a CRPG? I'm of the opinion that PnP doesn't always have to be the way to go, since it's actually a different game. NWN and PnP are just related, but one should not try to be the other (unless we are talking of closed DMed sessions, with pause, dicebag rolls and stuff used to play PnP overcoming the geographical distance).

The main problem with changing the D&D system is that it is like a chain reaction - one small change can set off a number of different imbalances, that tend to snowball as more changes get implemented to offset these imbalances.

Aye, getting it right is difficult.