How do You Feel about Dying In Game?

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               

Jenna WSI wrote...

Dying.... I haven't found the perfect solution for this in NWN, but on WSI we don't treat death as actually dying... instead, it's being knocked unconcious during battle, or otherwise going down without dying. To die so much in the course of levels 1-30 is just silly. So... we don't have raise dead scrolls, we have smelling salts and other ways of bringing your friends back.

While the idea of RP being knocked out is not new to me, the smelling salts one is. What a wonderful fun way to get around the whole death thing '>

I've played on servers that treat death seriously, sometimes a DM would be there to act as a diety and maybe someone in the party prays hard and bamn, you're alive again and worshipping the god/goddess. Other places had a Fugue (sp?) plane where you basically stayed until someone in game carried your body to a temple and paid (a lot!) to ress you. If you died solo then you'd simply have to wait for a server reset and loose a level ...and the reset may not be that night but the next day :/  Not much fun, although, I did die less because dying really was no fun!

I think the only death I'd hate is the dying of thirst/hunger type. Never happened to me but I seem to remember early on years back when that system came in, there was a PW that it did happen on. Not stocking up enough was bad, but also I have a feeling the system was in place to impede the players ability to roam too far from any one city, so folk only got to see far off places if they went in a large party when the weight issue of canteens and food could be worked around.

Smelling salts are cool though
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Queensilverwing, 20 septembre 2011 - 05:52 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

                I've never understood the complaints about penalties for death. Death must be meaningful. And as long as you know from the beginning what the penalties for dying are, then I think it works. How severe the penalty is makes no difference to me. I always wanted Vives to go the permadeath route. I infact made a point of voluntarily permadeathing each of my characters during several months of play no matter how ignominous their death. This upset a few people until they met my new characters and started interacting with them.

Anyway, all I want to stress is that I think death must be penalyzed to be meaningful in a multiplayer context.

Also since I do care about how death is handled, I developed a customized death system for a single player game I am working on. Its not much of a system. All I have in it are some interrupts in the death and dying scripts that enable customized behavior to be inserted based on the area or the killer. But this has enabled me to insert cut scenes related to the character's defeat in battle, accidents, final death etc... That way the death can be redefined - perhaps the PC was only knocked out - or you can give the player some closure, wrapping up the story satisfactorily - like a dead end in a choose your own adventure.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               I was also excited with perma death until I realized that such environment requires almost no challenge. If the world is challenging then not so skilled players will have very hard times and they gonna often die while powergamers not. Also you cant spawn really powerful traps as that would only killed those who didnt know about them. If you would managed to have their position always randomized then it would be even bigger issue. Such environment would have to be easy which wouldnt be then funny for myself actually.

And in the end, its never perma-death unless you somehow disable resurrecting. In that case its just a "time until I can play again" which that player spend angry on chat/forum or just with his other character.

For example I have seen a "five times enough" system (3T) where after fifth respawn (not resurrect) player lost all his XPs and items. Also these "times" could been bought. So in the end, the ONLY ONE who really died was a newbie who didnt read or understood how death is handled. Or someone who forgot that he have only 1times left and respawn because there is noone near. So its just fail.

Second example (HG) just disable the respawn feature (and was even called not perma death but immortality lol) which is exactly what I said - just an annoying time for player can't play.

As for penalties, most worlds uses as harsh penalties as possible, some even remove XPs when resurrect (harsh!) but I found out that just starting from town again and running across twenty areas is enough penalty itself. Unless you are monk of course.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 20 septembre 2011 - 09:32 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <stepping out...>

Death must have meaning.  Death must be heroic... or villainous.  It *must* mean something.  

I wrote a long article with that title ten years ago in protest of the same-old fight-die-res-fight-die-respawn grind. I'd hoped that would have survived (like my short-stories) on the Vault, but I can't find it if it did.

Without *consequence*, death is simply another meta-game and "life" is simply another resource.

To be meaningful, it must be treasured, valued, protected. *Fiercely* protected! A player simply won't go to the trouble if it's easy to res/respawn.

I promised then and I promise now, death on the Gemworld of Amethyst is permanent. Final. That's all she wrote. Period.

How does it make my players feel? Well, PnP, it made them pretty damn fanatic about playing smart... and fierce. We'll see if I can translate that to NwN.

@Henesua That is similar to how I intend to handle things. Death is going to be rare for intelligent creatures. If you fight an intelligent creature and you get it down and out, you will have to answer a Coup de Grace pop-up that you really, really want to commit murder. And that *will* have consequences. (God of Death is pretty possessive...)

If you are taken down? Depends on who your companions are (if any). But the Goddess Sylvi'a is there for a reason (in the Forrestal mod). She will intervene, provided there isn't a more mundane mechanism handy. Players are (with a few exceptions) "immortal", in that combat will fade to black and PC will regain consciousness sometime later. If they were taken out by intelligent foes, they will have been robbed. If by animals, they will be in such bad shape they can only crawl.

OTOH, if you agro an ancient red dragon for giggles... start the game over.

How do *I* feel about dying in game?

Way back during the beta of EQ they held this massive undead invasion event... hundreds of people dying left & right. At the time I was playing my old friend Cestus Dei, dwarven cleric. He cast every spell he had, trying to save people. Then he waded in with hammer and shield and gave his all...It was glorious!

I have never power-gamed. Nothing against those who do, but *I* enjoy the heroic, the glorious. And "I'll distract him with my death while you grab the Chalice and we'll meet at Barney's for a beer" just isn't glorious.

Cheers.

<...of some very dark and distant shadows>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               @Rolo. I'm not sure how exactly one could make use of a customized interrupt script for death in multiplayer, although I am sure it would have its uses. I conceived it primarily as a means to run scripts in single player that would tweak the story.

For example I have a section in my single player mod where the PC is in a den of giant spiders. The first time that the PC is taken down by the spiders, the spiders wrap up the PC and take the PC back to their nest - which is a small side branch in the story and opens up some story possibilities. The second time the spiders defeat the PC they eat him right there and the player has to start from the last save.

I haven't got around to it, but I also want special death scripts should the PC be killed by any of the main NPCs and to have these each be context sensitive - meaning that the consequences/cut scene for death adapt to the circumstances of the story.

In this way the player can just play rather than worrying about restarting or respawning. The whole experience is wrapped up in the story.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN DM]

               As long as it's "in game" and not out of it, I'm fine.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN DM]

               

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

I'm all about permadeath. Most PCs in my campaign found themselves retiring at level 10 or so. Mind you in my low magic, low gold Greyhawk setting level 10 was ridiculously high and could challenge even champions of the realm.

Gotta love Greyhawk done right. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               

Rolo kipp Wrote:
Way back during the beta of EQ they held this massive undead invasion event... hundreds of people dying left & right. At the time I was playing my old friend Cestus Dei, dwarven cleric. He cast every spell he had, trying to save people. Then he waded in with hammer and shield and gave his all...It was glorious!

Ah I would have loved to have seen it, but your description certainly provided me with vivid images '>

I've only experienced that kind of team work less than a handful of times. It IS a wonderful feeling when you adventure with people you've gotten to know in game and you all watch each others backs. That was one of the reasons I would never play with a PC I didn't know, I liked to watch how they conducted themselves within a party (of their own level) first to see if they were going munchkin or not.

I like the way you describe handling death, which isn't death so much as more often serious harm etc...on both sides.

@Henesua - You ideas on death by a main NPC are great, using a cutscene to finish the story means that the replayablity factor is good. That kind of death I don't mind at all, it is a story all it's own...and would certainly encourage me to do my best to not die *grins*

I'm still sort of leaning to the other side of the whole idea that 'death must mean something'. On the one hand I see that it encourages players to care about their PC and the world around them. On the other, it kind'a forces a type of reality on me that I don't really want in my gaming.  While I'm more fond of some of my PCs than others, I don't want them to live through me, but I do want to live an adventurous life through them. I want to take risks, sometimes they may even be stupid risks. They are my release from reality and if they die 10 times in a week of gaming, all I have to ask myself is 'yeah, but was it fun?'. If the dying was from boredom that would be horrid, if it was from battling against the odds just to see how far I could get, that is the challenge I'm looking for. Eventually I'll figure out how not to die, or walk away knowing that I can come back another time stronger and more able to beat the challenge.

But if a server had permadeath, then my chances of keeping my PC would be limited. If I can't go off alone at times and just push her to her limits without fear of loosing her just when she was becoming interesting, then that may well take away from my gaming enjoyment. I would be forced to work within a party, and well, sometimes I just want to roam alone so I don't have to expend energy on RP or worry that I gotta watch someone elses back all the time.

I guess that is where the SP environment comes into its own, although I'd still crave the solitude online as well.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               I don't think a meaningful death has to be permadeath. The important factor is that the dying player give up something. Even if all that is given up is a nominal tax of XP and GP then I think at least with regards to game play death means something.

Vives had a dirtnap league which publicly listed the death tally of each character on the website. I think that also works. For some it was a point of pride to have died a great deal. For others it was shameful.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <getting that fanatic look...>

Queensilverwing wrote...
I like the way you describe handling death, which isn't death so much as more often serious harm etc...on both sides.

Actually, that's the point. You redefine death as *death* and use other mechanisms for set-backs. Death will be possible, but is no longer a viable tactic. <how he does love oxymorons... death, a viable tactic ;-P>

@Henesua - You ideas on death by a main NPC are great, using a cutscene to finish the story means that the replayablity factor is good. That kind of death I don't mind at all, it is a story all it's own...and would certainly encourage me to do my best to not die *grins*

He actually phrased it better than I did, but the idea is the same... *if* you have to die, it should be a critical point in the story and be very context sensitive (good point H! :-)

I'm still sort of leaning to the other side of the whole idea that 'death must mean something'. On the one hand I see that it encourages players to care about their PC and the world around them. On the other, it kind'a forces a type of reality on me that I don't really want in my gaming.  While I'm more fond of some of my PCs than others, I don't want them to live through me, but I do want to live an adventurous life through them. I want to take risks, sometimes they may even be stupid risks. They are my release from reality and if they die 10 times in a week of gaming, all I have to ask myself is 'yeah, but was it fun?'. If the dying was from boredom that would be horrid, if it was from battling against the odds just to see how far I could get, that is the challenge I'm looking for. Eventually I'll figure out how not to die, or walk away knowing that I can come back another time stronger and more able to beat the challenge.

But if a server had permadeath, then my chances of keeping my PC would be limited. If I can't go off alone at times and just push her to her limits without fear of loosing her just when she was becoming interesting, then that may well take away from my gaming enjoyment. I would be forced to work within a party, and well, sometimes I just want to roam alone so I don't have to expend energy on RP or worry that I gotta watch someone elses back all the time.

I guess that is where the SP environment comes into its own, although I'd still crave the solitude online as well.

I really do have to go through the ancient parchment and see if I have a copy of my essay...

Take every place you said "died" or "dying" and change it to "was hurt horribly" or "getting hurt horribly".

Death is easy. So recovering from death must be easy, or it is very un-fun.

If you make the consequences of dying extreme, then dying must be *hard* to do. These are heroes... the first puffed up rat they encounter *can not* kill them... just hurt them horribly.

Once you change the paradigm of death being a tactic, you have to change *everything* related to death. You can *not* make the players afraid of risk or even mildly annoyed at the mechanism. You *have* to provide an *alternate* playing style that is viable, fun and personally rewarding.

A herd of wild spiders takes you down... <herd?> Hush, Bother. I'm pontificating <snort> They drag you to their nest (I *really* like where you're going H :-). You're hurt, alone. What do you do next?

 - Old style... Sheesh, this is too hard... probably a dead end (pun intended) in the story... load last saved...
(The assumption is that the player bit off more than he can chew (DM error, actually) and that he needs to get back to the main plot thread to get anywhere)

 - New style... Whoa. How the heck will I survive *this*? What a story it will make!
(The assumption is that the designer knows what he is doing and will not just throw the PC away for taking risks)

You need mechanisms to recover from player excesses, both intentional and un. You need mechanisms that are contextual and consistent with your mythos. You need mechanisms that are unique, rewarding in and of themselves. You need players to identify and care about their character. Most of all, you need players to *enjoy* playing and not want to stop!

Let me toss a few ideas out:
 - Inheritence... if the PC dies the final death <redundant!> the player gets a new character... but inherits both ability & goods from the deceased. The new character is not started from scratch, but given a huge boost as next of kin.

- Explicit death. Any time someone attempts to kill an intelligent being (NPC or PC), they will have to declare *explicitly* that they are commiting murder. This *will* have consequences, both public (*if* witnessed) and religious (the Gods participate in Amethyst ;-), not just for the murderer, but for the victim's friends, family and *matron diety*. Only named, plot NPCs will ever commit murder. Only terribly evil (griefers are in that category) PCs will commit murder.

- Divine intervention... How do you handle griefers? Personally? How about tracking murder? When a griefer is about to murder one of your eldest and most beloved PCs, what would happen if the appropriate Goddess manifested and shook her finger under his nose... with consequences? Hmmm, you *do* have mechanisms in place for "sensing" alignment actions and faction readjustments, right?

<...in his killer's eyes>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 21 septembre 2011 - 06:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               

Henesua Wrote:
I don't think a meaningful death has to be permadeath. The important factor is that the dying player give up something. Even if all that is given up is a nominal tax of XP and GP then I think at least with regards to game play death means something.

*Blinks slowly* Ah! Then we are in agreement *grins* consequences to our actions is just fine, and can work both ways, good and bad. Oh well then, now I understand, and am more than willing to pay the piper should I die through my own stupidity (well it really - has - to be through my own stupidity if I'm solo). I really hope I can play your module and soon! '>

Vives had a dirtnap league which publicly listed the death tally of each character on the website. I think that also works. For some it was a point of pride to have died a great deal. For others it was shameful.

I remember that about Vives '>

A herd of wild spiders takes you down... <herd?> Hush, Bother. I'm pontificating <snort> They drag you to their nest (I *really* like where you're going H :-). You're hurt, alone. What do you do next?

An interesting scenario you err both present. So, I'm surrounded by a Clutter of spiders *grins*. Well, I'm hurt, but I'm guessing that the spiders are not -that- hungry because they have not eaten me yet. Soooo, I play dead but ensure that I secret my small dagger just in case I need to cut myself out of some webbing. Playing dead also allows to me to conserve strength (hopefully!) and since it was day when the spiders attacked me, I'm also betting that they sleep or doze at night. I wait and keep a slitted eye out for an opportunity to escape stealthily...I really don't want to fight in my condition, but if I have to, perhaps I can take them by surprise.

*Grins wryly at the fanatical glint in his killer eyes*

- Old style... Sheesh, this is too hard... probably a dead end (pun intended) in the story... load last saved...
(The assumption is that the player bit off more than he can chew (DM error, actually) and that he needs to get back to the main plot thread to get anywhere)

Naa, that would be boring '>

- New style... Whoa. How the heck will I survive *this*? What a story it will make!
(The assumption is that the designer knows what he is doing and will not just throw the PC away for taking risks)

Yep, much more interesting, not to mention challenging *chuckles at his evilness*

You need mechanisms to recover from player excesses, both intentional and un. You need mechanisms that are contextual and consistent with your mythos. You need mechanisms that are unique, rewarding in and of themselves. You need players to identify and care about their character. Most of all, you need players to *enjoy* playing and not want to stop!

Let me toss a few ideas out:
- Inheritence... if the PC dies the final death <redundant!> the player gets a new character... but inherits both ability & goods from the deceased. The new character is not started from scratch, but given a huge boost as next of kin.

- Explicit death. Any time someone attempts to kill an intelligent being (NPC or PC), they will have to declare *explicitly* that they are commiting murder. This *will* have consequences, both public (*if* witnessed) and religious (the Gods participate in Amethyst ;-), not just for the murderer, but for the victim's friends, family and *matron diety*. Only named, plot NPCs will ever commit murder. Only terribly evil (griefers are in that category) PCs will commit murder.

- Divine intervention... How do you handle griefers? Personally? How about tracking murder? When a griefer is about to murder one of your eldest and most beloved PCs, what would happen if the appropriate Goddess manifested and shook her finger under his nose... with consequences? Hmmm, you *do* have mechanisms in place for "sensing" alignment actions and faction readjustments, right?

Hrmmm, must look up your PW Master Rolo Kipp, you are both quite interesting fellows...completely mad, but definitely interesting!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Queensilverwing, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <chuckling...>

Queensilverwing wrote...

A herd of wild spiders takes you down... <herd?> Hush, Bother. I'm pontificating <snort> They drag you to their nest (I *really* like where you're going H :-). You're hurt, alone. What do you do next?

An interesting scenario you err both present.

My familiar, the Raven Wings-of-Shadow-Under-the-Vanguard-of-Storms (you can see why I call her Bother), makes a habit of snide <cynical> comments to keep me awake <humble>.

*Grins wryly at the fanatical glint in his killer eyes*

Hehe, she was actually talking about the glint in my killer's eyes. The last guy that killed me, what? twenty-thirty years ago?
<if it makes you feel better>
What? You weren't?
<...>
What are you trying to say?

Hrmmm, must look up your PW Master Rolo Kipp, you are both quite interesting fellows...completely mad, but definitely interesting!

<...at how great minds, or at least ravens & wyrms, think alike>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Remembering that NWN is not PnP, a smaller penalty for Death is pleasing as some forget that while my Rogue may be able to Dodge and Evade quickly on the field of battle, the Player may stall and freeze at the controls for reasons that are sometimes beyond one's control (eg; pizza burning in the oven, illness, upset children, storms, spouses, etc). If the penalty takes the Player out of the game, then I hold that this may be something that needs re-visited in the rules.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <Striking a heroic pose...>

Elhanan wrote...
Remembering that NWN is not PnP, a smaller penalty for Death is pleasing as some forget that while my Rogue may be able to Dodge and Evade quickly on the field of battle, the Player may stall and freeze at the controls for reasons that are sometimes beyond one's control (eg; pizza burning in the oven, illness, upset children, storms, spouses, etc). If the penalty takes the Player out of the game, then I hold that this may be something that needs re-visited in the rules.

Completely and absolutely true. Well, not the size of the penalty for death, but the inappropriateness of trivial death in the gaming experience.

These are supposed to be heroic adventures, not some idle daydream of nymphs and honey and dappled shadows and <a-HEM!> er, idle daydreams that can be shattered by trivial and random chance! That robs death of its meaning, if not its sting.

To die *must* be a purposeful, meaningful act. To allow dying while AFK is... lazy, IMO.

<...ruined by the brandy snifter in one hand and the pipe in the other>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 21 septembre 2011 - 09:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I view a lot of this really sadly.

Sooo many seem to have forgotten how to roleplay.

I really do not know how you all play your SP games.  I really do not.

I like to play mine a bit roleplay-ish.

So...if I die, and get "respawned" - obviously respawning does not occur in RL, does it?  So in a fantasy sense, I got brought back for some reason.

Now, here is where the RP comes into play!  Now I can RP a number of different things, depending on where I got respawned and how I died!

So...if I get whacked by spiders...perhaps I did get dragged back to their lair...and they coccooned me.  I happened to keep my wits, and using a dagger, slowly, strand by strand, freed myself and slipped away as they were sleeping...

Sounds pretty good to me!

In one particular SP environment where I play, death is NOT possible in most areas - and there is a valid ingame reason for it.  I really, really like this.  And for important Bosses, it explains why they keep coming back, after being "vanquished" - because they cannot die, either.  It is alot like the Land of Oz - where dying is not possible.

Nothing like a valid, ingame reason for respawns.  Ingenious!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 23 septembre 2011 - 09:23 .