How do You Feel about Dying In Game?

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               I thought I'd throw this question out and get a view of what type of player you think you are when it comes to XP, gold and dying in game?

Back in 2002 I played on a PW for a couple of years called Hidden Traditions. It was a mixture of RP with plenty of action. I often played with friends (I'd met in the PW) and we'd go off and adventure together. My main PC was a half-elf rogue/fighter with high dex and after 2 years, she still had not reached level 20!

The reason for this was two-fold. Firstly, she suffered from multiclassing forfits, and she would often go off alone to adventure and pick some of the most fun and challenging areas to fight in. My PC would never take a share of the loot while in a party, she found the rushing forwards to grab what treasure she could to be less than savoury. So, every few days she would go off alone for several hours and adventure with a mind on her purse so that she could afford to have fun within her adventuring party the rest of the time.

Her favourite place outside of the treasure trove adventures, (like robbing the King of Jerusalem!) were the Knights Templar - even though she knew that she would die at least twice and likely never make it down past the second level of their temple. But boy, those battles were glorious and as flawed a PC as she was, my Lilly Summerbreeze was a joy to play and the dying was as much a part of the fun as anything else.

Often when in a party if my PC died, then I would respawn before anybody could get to her to res her. As a player, I figured if she died too quickly, she made stupid mistakes and thus deserved the loss of XP. If she died in a challenging battle, then what fun and it was worth every bit of XP loss.

Now you can see why she never made it past level 19 '>

I know some folk absolutely hate losing XP/Gold, and I just wondered why really? Maybe you don't mind losing XP, why is that?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Queensilverwing, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_UrkOfGreyhawk]

               I'm all about permadeath. Most PCs in my campaign found themselves retiring at level 10 or so. Mind you in my low magic, low gold Greyhawk setting level 10 was ridiculously high and could challenge even champions of the realm.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Hmmm.

Depends on how one sees this, I guess.  From an RP side, dying is...well, I think it is self-explanatory.  Unless brought back...you are dead.

Roll up another character.

So let us approach this as an Action sort of thing.

Dying means that I screwed up.  It is not the loss of XP/Gold/Items (some death systems are like that) that get me - it is the knowledge that I screwed up and died as a result.

You shouldn't be dying.  That is the ultimate penalty for making mistakes.

You see, defeating something challenging brings an appropriate award.  This is normally either XP, Gold, Items (or a combination) OR unlocking something further.  If the first, then dying and losing some of it is sort of counter-productive.  It means you have to spend even more time, effort, and perhaps resources in replacing what was lost.

I am a real sucker for taking on "impossible" challenges and trying to *knack* them...hehe.  I will even take into account dying a few times as a learning process.  But not too often...

Then I have obviously screwed something up.  It shows that I am not learning from and adapting to the challenge.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 19 septembre 2011 - 09:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               *typing aloud*

I hate dying.

yip that's about it *grin*

Oh. no , wait...  I wouldn't mind a respawn button for RL *grin*


Xp is irrelevant to me... play the character I want to play even if it means 40% xp penalty, tho don't misunderstand me... i like playing high lvl characters. high level = more fun things to do in game. That doesn;t mean feats are greater than RP or anything. It means you have more things to do as well as the RP.  I mean, how to play an archr if no rapid shot or called shot? click the target and hope or run? Special abilities is what makes the fight fun in NWN.... finding inventive ways to use what you got.

SO with those two, I dislike incredibly low level games where you can die from a lucky hit from a grocer wielding a stick of celery. *grin* . 4 hit points? So, some of my elves have 3! A nwn chicken, ME space hamster or DA squirrel is a serious threat when you have 2-4 hp!

Gold.... it's the way many authors balance their modules, soooo.... hard to not care about it. Mostly tho, so long as i can RP my character (which includes not having to pay ridiculous amounts for an ability to change your clothing/armour.... yip CEP I am looking at you *cheeky grin*) I don't care so much.  

...the only really important for me is experiences....... (not xp, experiences).

I hope to continue to not allow anything to come between me and that

Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               It's a difficult question, but I think if you are having fun that is the most important thing.  Sometimes through no fault of your own you might get whacked.  Playtesting my own campaign  I've died a bunch of times, mainly cause it's nasty with random spawns and all.  I put a feature called nagging wounds which kicks in after 10th level.  Every time you die after that level you receive a nagging wound which eventually makes your character unplayable, unless you seek help from a Shaman, or Witch Doctor who can give you a new lease on life, though it's expensive.  So I am sort of middle of the road, no permadeath, which, while I admire the purity of it, I just thinks it's too harsh. But I don't care for free respawn, with little or no loss.  The main deficit in my approach is that the higher level you are the more chance you will lose equipment.  Which is why I have ended up deleting a number of higher level characters, close to 20th level, since they had so many nagging wounds and the loss of their equipment was becoming a pain to replace.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_VPJ]

               I, myself, always wanted quicksave / quickload buttons for RL.  "Well, how the hell was *I* supposed to know I had spinach in my teeth?"  

*F5*
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               ^ Me wants!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_philty_]

               Death is permanent, period. Thats how I see even in this game.

I currently replay the OC on Very Difficult (with Tony K AI ) and I decided to try from level one a Dex-based Elven Wizard becoming some sort of "Arcane Blade" (Wizard 6 / Fighter 4 / CoT x). He has Constitution 6, and despite that so far he has *never died* - I did get lucky a few times, reaching less than 5 HP's , but managed to escape (ie, turn invisible and cast Exp Retreat, I never use Recall Stone for that). I must say I never also use immunity items, and if I am going to face a Bodak, e.g., I do have items that increase Wisdom and Willpower saves.

I actually faced that devil that you summon in some chamber and took it down (after a long hitn run obviously...). I think I was level 12 or 13 altogether. But I can only do all that and not die because I do my best to be prepared for the coming situations (in other words, to face said devil who was resistant to damage and elements, but NOT to sonic damage, I kept such a weapon I had previously found some place else).

I do the same in other mods (Aielund Saga, Torture Hearts 1 old version....). I try to make the achievements the characters I build really meaningful in game.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par philty , 20 septembre 2011 - 02:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               In SP, always permadeath.  The pause button is just too much of an exploit to ever die if you use adequate strategy (recon w/stealth or spells especially in trapped areas, equip a range weapon briefly to fire a single shot to wake a few foes and then retreat, venture fully buffed, pack plenty of ammo & potions, etc.).

On-line is another ball of wax.  The lag monster lurks on every server just to a lesser degree on some.  So, generally it is permadeath again with the caveat that my PC wasn't bitten by the beast.  Also, if I must sacrifice the life of my PC to save one of my fellow party members I am reluctant to continue on with the current character though it can become an expediency issue if you want to keep playing with those friends.  It means one would need to re-level a new PC which can take a very long time, perhaps longer than one may be willing to wait to rejoin their favorite party (besides, some servers prohibit parties of characters with levels that diverge too far, i.e. leeching XP).

There are some servers that you simply cannot solo but may be forced into it if you want to play even without party support available.  Even with a party, on some servers the bosses are so uberly empowered that death is just part of the game and you will need enough members that can remain alive long enough to resurrect your character, hopefully at a moment where you won't be immediately killed again.  In situations like that, it becomes annoying to be constantly wandering around looking for all the versions of your corpses and, for me anyway, that is more tedium than fun.  But there are lots of players who enjoy the thrill of vanquishing the unvanquishable at any cost and that includes watching their friends fall one at a time.

So on-line it really depends on the situation.  Obviously, if one is killed because they simply cannot compete with the build they are trying out, death is no big deal since the build sux anyway.  Just rinse and repeat.

TBH, the worst issue for me to face about game death is not losing XP, is not losing cherished items, is not losing gold, is not losing prestige... it is being forced to redo the entire tedious process again which will basically be the same adventure again except with fewer surprises the second time around.  Just bores the hell out me to have to go through the a carbon copy even with a completely different build.  But that's just my own preference.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__Guile]

               The only thing that effects how I feel about dying is the penalty for dying in game..

If you are permanently dead, then yeah, I wouldn't play very long on that server / module..
If the respawn penalty was severe (e.g. level loss + massive gold loss) yuk, wouldn't like it at all.

Otherwise if the penalty wasn't severe, then I wouldn't mind dying at all, as I know I could always make up for the lost time in game...

However, if it took me X days to make a level and I lost all of my xp for the last X days just for dying, then yeah I'd have a problem with that, a real big problem...

Time in game if lost cannot always be regained if the losses are quite substantial, so as you work hard to develop your character and if you die, it means nothing unless the penalty for death makes it painful.

I don't like to experience painful deaths...

I'm sure many gamers would agree dying sucks when you lose everything, or a large amount of time that cannot be gained back.

Experiencing level loss and large amounts of gold loss, or worse, item loss, yeah, that's a big complaint on a lot of servers...

On some servers, Death is only the beginning though...

You might die and then find yourself in some plane, only to have to fight your way back to the living! '>
I Love stuff like that!

Death Penalty is everything, it's how the builder sets up the world that makes a difference, suffering a minor loss in XP that may set you back an hour or two, may not be so bad, when you lose enough xp to set your character back days, or worse (weeks), then the loss is too tremendous to bare for many players.  Those who like permadeath rules are usually just RP Players, who, never really getting into the Character Building thing, really do not care about their character, itself, not even a little bit, they are mainly playing the game to Role Play that's pretty much it...

I'm not knocking on RP Players, I'm just calling it like I see it, they do not value a character, they value the experiece of acting/ role playing more than anything that is even remotely tied to the actual character, like levels / experience points, gold, items, etc...  They play the game to Act out Characters, not build them by gaining levels / gold /etc.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _Guile, 20 septembre 2011 - 06:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               I don't wanna die.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               In-game, I prefer a character's death to, at most, lead to a relatively minor loss of xp and carried gold.  Loss of items or levels...not any fun for me.

I don't mind xp/gp losses if gold can be banked/vaulted/bured somehow (a character planning for emergencies?), and if xp losses won't end up in level loss.  If it just takes some more time to earn back, that's ok with me.  If it's a devastating loss to my character, such as levels or Con points or all his/her cash or even a prized item...yuck.

Being more of an action style player, permadeath wouldn't work for me in NWN.  PnP D&D, sure, but not in NWN.

I do think that, being a D&D game, there should definitely be the risk of death.  It's just part of the game.  Do something rash, like charging a dragon without first preparing...the odds should not be in your favor.  Do something slightly more rational, such as scouting out the dragon's lair, setting traps, and surrounding the dragon with allies...improves the odds for you, but there's still a risk of dying.  That's part of the challenge of the game.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               Ooooh, lots of replies here, thankee!

Permadeath is a no no for me as well. Loss of items? I think not! Loss of gold and or levels? I can live with that, it makes the challenge to get back fun.

I actually enjoy playing the lower level end of things, lvl 1 - 10 is when I have the most fun. As shia and VPJ can tell you, I don't understand D&D rules, and I certainly have no idea how to create a good build for my PC. Lilly SummerBreeze was a fluke, I don't even understand why her weaknesses were also her strengths. shia makes all my PC's for our MP gaming sessions in hers and VPJ's modded version of GvE III...I just get to have the most fun using them and lately, often dying '>

For me this really is just a game and one where I'm happy to pay the price for making mistakes. I mean, how cool is it being able to die over and over again in glorious battle and then hit a re-spawn button? SO cool! Life is all about mistakes, unfairness, learning from mistakes and trying to enjoy and even see the joy in the world around us. Always take something good from the bad, even if it is only the knowledge that it was bad.

Gaming is all about taking risks I would never do in RL, living forever and at the end of the night, while I may be mentally exhausted, I'm not suffering from injuries.

I'm hopeless I know, I just can't help having soooooo much fun up front and centre in battles '>


A rewind button or even a pause one would be nice I agree.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__six]

               I prefer plot death.

If there's an encounter where I have a solid chance of dying, I'd like some kind of plot structure ready in place to handle that. Permadeath is a realistic and cheap to implement way of handling that, but I think having story events either in the world or personal to my character that would fire off if I died at a critical point is super cool. Like, maybe the party need to go on a quest to resurrect me, or I give aid in spirit form, like a jedi or something, on the way to the big bad enemy. It's actually not hard to ad lib, either, with a bit of suspense of disbelief.

The notion of death as just being an inglorious failure is cool but its not particularly fun when you can't jump back in and try again IMO - as an apparently highly selfish individual I want my death to be worth something . For me permadeath is great in games with very fast progression but for a more RP based scenario or lengthy single player mod, it can actually break immersion as hastily re-entering the same world with a different character can just feel far too 'gamey' for my tastes.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 20 septembre 2011 - 04:52 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               I don't like permadeath as a system, because it takes the control away from the player. I think death should have meaning but... that it should have meaning more than "oops a goblin shot me while I was trying to drink my soda". I think a character's death should be epic, and have a decent story to lead up to it, and the death itself be an Event in the lives of the other characters, the spotlight shining on the person who dies, for that moment. To do this in a game engine with a random moment, to me, takes away from it. I also dont like to end a pc's life without the player's acceptance because perhaps they were in the middle of a faction story that can't continue without this character, or they just don't want to stop playing the pc yet. If the game is about having fun... then to me removing a pc before the player wants them to be gone, isn't very fun. I realize some players like that kind of permadeath set up - but it's not for me or my server.

Dying.... I haven't found the perfect solution for this in NWN, but on WSI we don't treat death as actually dying... instead, it's being knocked unconcious during battle, or otherwise going down without dying. To die so much in the course of levels 1-30 is just silly. So... we don't have raise dead scrolls, we have smelling salts and other ways of bringing your friends back.