Lookitthat: a new Godwin's law evolving before our eyes.

[Legacy_Frith5]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Frith5 wrote...

I believe a person can be cheating in an endeavor in which they are the sole actor.

Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

Everything you've just said regarding my post is only your opinion, with which I happen to disagree. As you say, simply saying 'its a fact' doesn't make it a fact. You may occasionally want to take a look at what you write, and just for the hell of it, switch your perpsective around with the person with whom you are disagreeing. See what happens? Your words to me could apply exactly unchanged as my words to you, and who can prove otherwise? You don't think anyone can cheat themselves or cheat when doing something alone, eh? Here, lemme quote you again: Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

Also, the Earth is not round. It's spherical. A circle is round; a ball is spherical. Semantics, and not important. Just didn't want to you stop educating yourself.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

WebShaman wrote...
Here is such a good example of denial :

Reasion is that if you change the rules of a game, you are not really playing the original game anymore.   So if you say I am playing the OC with 99 strength, you are cheating.   If you say you are playing your modified version of the OC with 99 strength, I guess a case can be made for you not cheating.

Obviously, playing the OC with 99 strength is a "modified version" of the OC - it has been changed by the player themselves, even if it is just a little, tiny modification of the .bic in question.  This did not happen due to some happenings ingame.  The player consciously modified her game.

99 Strength is an ingame console command (arguably using DebugMode).  Was the OC intended to use DebugMode in SP? is a different question.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

WebShaman wrote...

Obviously, playing the OC with 99 strength is a "modified version" of the OC - it has been changed by the player themselves, even if it is just a little, tiny modification of the .bic in question.  This did not happen due to some happenings ingame.  The player consciously modified her game.

ANY change to the original is obviously NOT THE ORIGINAL anymore!

Actually, its not modifying OC but your character, thats completely different thing. Most of the modifications you were talking about are not modifications of OC/module at all. All of it was client-side. The module itself wont change, so you are not changing module "rules".

But that just a technical point of view. For me its about intend, using console comand to increase strenght to 99 is clearly intend to make a game easier, to cheat.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 14 septembre 2011 - 02:38 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lightfoot8]

               

Forget your personal tragedy. We are all ****ed from the start and you especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it-don't cheat with it.
Ernest Hemingway


Each of us has been put on earth with the ability to do something well. We cheat ourselves and the world if we don't use that ability as best we can.
George Allen, Sr.


Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life so. Aim above morality. Be not simply good; be good for something.
Henry David Thoreau


“To cheat oneself out of love is the most terrible deception; it is an eternal loss for which there is no reparation, either in time or in eternity”
Soren Kierkegaard


“The first and worst of all frauds is to cheat one's self. All sin is easy after that.”
Pearl Bailey


“No one can cheat you out of ultimate success but yourself.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

“Most people have come to prefer certain of life’s experiences and deny and reject others, unaware of the value of the hidden things that may come wrapped in plain and even ugly paper. In avoiding all pain and seeking comfort at all costs, we may be left without intimacy or compassion; in rejecting change and risk we often cheat ourselves of the quest; in denying our suffering we may never know our strength or our greatness.”
Rachel Naomi Remen

If you just were willing to educate yourself, which you are self admittedly not, you would discover that cheating implies deceipt.
Kail Pendragon


As a further important clarification, cheating also implies deceipt. And that implies two parties. Oh look, in SP there's one single parrty involved.
Kail Pendragon

Don't be to hard on Kail he mised out on all that other wisdom also, In his rush to win the argument.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lightfoot8, 14 septembre 2011 - 03:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Lightfoot8 wrote...

Don't be to hard on Kail he mised out on all that other wisdom also, In his rush to win the argument.

The whole discussion is over two different definitions of a word.  From the free online dictionary (other dictionaries will note these as well)  the two primary definitions of the intransitive verb cheat are:

1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

I know of several regions in the US where definition two is used more frequently than definition one.  Definition two is the older, stemming etymologically from "escheat".

EDIT: fixed link
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WhiZard, 14 septembre 2011 - 04:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Frith5 wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Frith5 wrote...

I believe a person can be cheating in an endeavor in which they are the sole actor.

Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

Everything you've just said regarding my post is only your opinion,

That your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts? Maybe. It is not my opinion that cheating in SP is simply not possible though, that's currently a  proven fact.

with which I happen to disagree. As you say, simply saying 'its a fact' doesn't make it a fact.

Indeed. In fact, it's the fact it is a fact to make it a fact. That's what happens when someone states the obvious self evident truth. And then fools come around thinking they can disagree with it (the truth).

You may occasionally want to take a look at what you write, and just for the hell of it, switch your perpsective around with the person with whom you are disagreeing.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, others are disagreeing with facts. I could disagree with someone if it were a matter of opinions, something which facts are not.

See what happens? Your words to me could apply exactly unchanged as my words to you, and who can prove otherwise? You don't think anyone can cheat themselves or cheat when doing something alone, eh? Here, lemme quote you again: Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

I have no belief about it, no opinion about it. I have knowledge about it instead; knowledge that one cannot cheat in SP.

Also, the Earth is not round. It's spherical. A circle is round; a ball is spherical. Semantics, and not important. Just didn't want to you stop educating yourself.

Thank you for the correction! '> I believe you are wrong about it though (now this is opinion as evidenced by my choice of words), since more than one dictionary I consulted reports round as meaning spherical too. I also did not want to use spherical since the Earth is not really spherical and I felt thant round conveyed the approximate shape of the Earth more properly. Anyhow, if you have more insight about it or know of a better ordinary english word to describe the approximate shape of the Earth I'll be happy to hear about it.

And have no fear, I won't stop educating myself. It is against my nature.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lightfoot8 wrote...

Forget your personal tragedy. We are all ****ed from the start and you especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it-don't cheat with it.
Ernest Hemingway


Each of us has been put on earth with the ability to do something well. We cheat ourselves and the world if we don't use that ability as best we can.
George Allen, Sr.


Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life so. Aim above morality. Be not simply good; be good for something.
Henry David Thoreau


“To cheat oneself out of love is the most terrible deception; it is an eternal loss for which there is no reparation, either in time or in eternity”
Soren Kierkegaard


“The first and worst of all frauds is to cheat one's self. All sin is easy after that.”
Pearl Bailey


“No one can cheat you out of ultimate success but yourself.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

“Most people have come to prefer certain of life’s experiences and deny and reject others, unaware of the value of the hidden things that may come wrapped in plain and even ugly paper. In avoiding all pain and seeking comfort at all costs, we may be left without intimacy or compassion; in rejecting change and risk we often cheat ourselves of the quest; in denying our suffering we may never know our strength or our greatness.”
Rachel Naomi Remen

If you just were willing to educate yourself, which you are self admittedly not, you would discover that cheating implies deceipt.
Kail Pendragon


As a further important clarification, cheating also implies deceipt. And that implies two parties. Oh look, in SP there's one single parrty involved.
Kail Pendragon

Don't be to hard on Kail he mised out on all that other wisdom also, In his rush to win the argument.

There's no argument to win at all, if you just were willing to educate yourself you would know it.. As you would know the difference between the proper meaning of a word and a figure of speech. Which evidently you do not. But what to expect from someone that stopped educating himself a long time ago?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

Obviously, playing the OC with 99 strength is a "modified version" of the OC - it has been changed by the player themselves, even if it is just a little, tiny modification of the .bic in question.  This did not happen due to some happenings ingame.  The player consciously modified her game.

ANY change to the original is obviously NOT THE ORIGINAL anymore!

Actually, its not modifying OC but your character, thats completely different thing. Most of the modifications you were talking about are not modifications of OC/module at all. All of it was client-side. The module itself wont change, so you are not changing module "rules".

But that just a technical point of view. For me its about intend, using console comand to increase strenght to 99 is clearly intend to make a game easier, to cheat.

Making the game easier is not to cheat. You should get yourself acquainted with the meaning of cheat/cheating before talking.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               Are you soon going to see some real blood or not?
I'm getting a bit impatient here. Come on guys! Bring it on!
Swords out! (I learned that one from The Eagle. Another terrible movie)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__six]

               I want to start a movement, to coin the new phrase...

Acting Outside The Bounds Of The Intended Rules Of Play As Designed By The Developers By Modifying Or Circumventing Rules

We don't cheat. We AOTBOTIROPADBYTDBMOCR.

Everyone's happy.

Side note: has it ever occurred to anyone that debug mode was implemented for debugging.  For instance, quickly getting a character back to the same stats after having to end a test playthrough when the module itself was changed (save files remain buggy after a module change). Sure, you aren't screwing anyone else over by using it to play the game, but that doesn't change the fact that you are AOTBOTIROPADBYTDBMOCRing a bit. If you like doing that for your own enjoyment, cool. It's not really any different to enjoying glitching through walls to look at the pretty skybox, its just playing the game in a way it wasn't really intended to be presented as a product.

I don't really care what you call it, I just find it interesting the way random threads started by new players are being systematically taken over by semantics rather than answering peoples questions. The NWN community, driving away new players one thread at a time.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 14 septembre 2011 - 09:38 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               There are no rules to circumvent or to abide to in SP. There's just playing the game.

The intentions of the authors of the module/engine/whatever have no bearing nor relevance. Whatever one does in SP, he cannot cheat.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

_six wrote...

Acting Outside The Bounds Of The Intended Rules Of Play As Designed By The Developers By Modifying Or Circumventing Rules

That is where the old "escheat" definition (later shortened to "cheat") took root.  From the French practice of giving inheritance when the owner died (and thus could not fulfill the obligations related to keeping the property).  By "ownership" the property would still be the dead owner's as the deceased never sold or reassigned it, but the circumstance of death would allow the property to "fall" from the rules of ownership so that it could be inherited.

"Escheat" became used more generally to associate with any type of "falling" from rules or regulations.  There still was no transitive use of this word, rather if there was any implied object it was the rules from which the object "fell".  Thus the shortened forms of "cheating death" and "cheating fate" took root, not in personifying death and fate as being swindled, but rather associating them as a rule set which somehow was relaxed.  Marital unfaithfulness was also regarded as "cheating" not in swindling another, but in "falling" from the oath of matrimony.

Swindling and dishonesty were a much later development of the word, in which "cheat" became a negative term used to justify many types of crime.  Thus the personal object "He cheated her out of money" while still within the scope of "falling" from the rules of ownership introduced the concept of one being negatively affected by the "falling".  It is this later development of the word which became standardized and the norm, however, the older form still exists and is used in fragments of its full definition and thus dictionaries cannot mark the older sense as archaic.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Actually the earth is Not round or Spherical. Its kinda lumpy egged shaped, and rather wet too. I know, because I have driven, and sailed all the way around it. And while yes, you can get right back to where you start if you head in a fairly strait line, you will find it is nearly impossible to do so, as most roads and continents get in the way.

The argument is moot. Neither side is going to listen, or choose to agree. It doesn't mater, because it is a core belief anyway. It is kind of like saying one religion is better, or one political mindset is better. It will not get you anything but a headache.

Personally, I don't care what you do with what, in your own home. I do what I want in mine. I believe its good manners to not call whatever your doing, something that has a negative connotation, because, my mother taught me manners, and to not say something about someone if you can't say something nice. That is the real reason for the argument. Some are calling others cheaters, in a game that they do not play together. I can certainly understand why this has gotten heated yet again,  and think its just a matter of time before a moderator shows up to tell everyone to shut up. When that happens we can all return to playing our own version of the game.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               We have already addressed the Devs in relation to a Closed SP Environment - they do not come into play.

We have already addressed what cheating is, defined it, and applied that to the definition of a Closed SP Environment, and it came out that one cannot cheat in a Closed SP Environment.  No-one has been able to disprove it.  And no-one has offered any other type of proof, except for that which I did.

And still, we get those who know this posting again and again that they BELIEVE, FEEL, and THINK (re: opinion) that cheating is involved in a Closed SP Environment.

For those of you who still do - please post your proof.  Not your beliefs, not your feelings, not your thinking.  Your scientific proof.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Frith5]

               WebShaman, you are only citing yourself as proof of your 'facts' which are really your opinion. This is an unprovable discussion, and _six is right in that the true message ought to be something more positive to newcomers (and oldtimers!) to this forum. Look, I don't CARE what anyone does with this or any other game. I absolutely support anyone who wants to play it however they want, with all the 'modifications' to the standard rules that were set forth both in D&D and in Bioware's gameplay. Who cares? But, it is silly (in my opinion) for you to authoritatively state your opinion "Can't cheat in a closed SP environment", and then continue to say, "Well, there, now we have an absolute fact from which to base everything." Come on, man. That's not logical. I could say the same sort of thing, and then keep saying we've already proven this or that. No, you have not proven a thing, sir. At any rate, have fun everyone, however you want to play this game. I consider it cheating to break established rules, and changing the rules is impossible without breaking the original rules. But, just because I consider it cheating, that does not mean I go about berating and insulting those who don't think it's cheating.  I would expect the same treatment from others (although I've run aground of a few folks who do not extend this courteous behavior, more do than don't).