Identify/Lore issue...seeking a console solution.

[Legacy_ffbj]

               Thanks for the encouragement.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <acting wise...>

Queensilverwing wrote...

Kail said:
To be able to deceive oneself one should be at the same time both aware of the truth (as the deceiver) and not (as the one being deceived). Since there's only one subject, this is a logical impossibility. It's a pretty simple concept, although language and figures of speech seem to muddle the waters a little to a superficial approach.

*Blinks, then blinks again and lids her eyes in astonishment*

Damn, you got me there Kail...in order to deceive one has to be aware of the deception. Perhaps I was thinking of or should have used the word delusional?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well then. I contradict myself. (I am large, I contain multitudes) - Song of Myself

:-)

Saying a human (or other sentient) is incapable of logical impossibility is to think in binary.

<...but he is not a very good actor>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 22 septembre 2011 - 12:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I personally do not believe that someone can be in a state of knowing and not knowing at the same time.

I believe that someone simply chooses to ignore knowing - and damned be the consequences.  But one should not be deceived here - ignoring knowing is not the same as actually not knowing.  One is still aware of whatever it is one is ignoring.  This is sort of like trying to convince oneself that something is not true - of course whatever it is is true, the person in question is just trying to avoid admitting it to themself.  

Deep down inside, they know that.  They are just not facing it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <over looking...>

WebShaman wrote...
I personally do not believe that someone can be in a state of knowing and not knowing at the same time.

Aye, there's the rub. Is the I the same this day as yesterday? Does it know the same things?
<shrugs>
Doubtful.
But possible.
And that is my (rather whimsical) point.
People change. Their *state* changes. What they conveniently pseudo-forget one day may be truly forgotten the next and startlingly remembered the third. 

But don't take me too seriously. I was an drunk for a decade. Now I've been an alcoholic (recovering) for 18 years.

But I do enjoy my Ceasar Berentinni full-bent briar with a half-bowl of Capt. Black Royal in it.

So, I gave up one addiction and guiltily enjoy another.  I'm old enough (and live far enough away from other people) that I'm ok with that. I *enjoy* both my logical aspects and my illogic =)

I believe that someone simply chooses to ignore knowing - and damned be the consequences.  But one should not be deceived here - ignoring knowing is not the same as actually not knowing.  One is still aware of whatever it is one is ignoring.  This is sort of like trying to convince oneself that something is not true - of course whatever it is is true, the person in question is just trying to avoid admitting it to themself.

For the sake of arguing philosophy <and not because he's fiesty this morning> One might ignore knowing one day and genuinly forget the next, basing thought and action on a false foundation. The person would then have succeeded in avoiding admitting anything to themself.

Deep down inside, they know that.  They are just not facing it.

<sigh>
Yes. And in the end, I admit that I agree with you.
And the first step in overcoming personal challenges is admitting they exist.

Still...
There is some fun in being just a tad bit insane 

<...his spectacles>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Yes, there is.

We all love to not be...serious all the time.  It takes the juice out of living.

When existence is finite, living it becomes more paramount.

Take it from one who lived it.

These days?  You know, you may consider me really beyond the deep end, but I totally enjoy the morning rays of the sun.  It is a quiet, quasi-surreal moment.  The landscape is gentle, flat grassy fields, with just a whisp of morning haze.  The Sun, in his glory, signalling the day to come, has just risen, a rosy fireball low on the horizon...

The birds begin to sing.

The crispness of the air is indescribable.

You can't get this in a puff of tobacco, or a stiff drink.

Word.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 23 septembre 2011 - 09:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               

Rolo Kipp wrote...

<over looking...>

WebShaman wrote...
I personally do not believe that someone can be in a state of knowing and not knowing at the same time.

Aye, there's the rub. Is the I the same this day as yesterday? Does it know the same things?
<shrugs>
Doubtful.
But possible.
And that is my (rather whimsical) point.
People change. Their *state* changes. What they conveniently pseudo-forget one day may be truly forgotten the next and startlingly remembered the third. 

But don't take me too seriously. I was an drunk for a decade. Now I've been an alcoholic (recovering) for 18 years.

For the sake of arguing philosophy <and not because he's fiesty this morning> One might ignore knowing one day and genuinly forget the next, basing thought and action on a false foundation. The person would then have succeeded in avoiding admitting anything to themself.

Deep down inside, they know that.  They are just not facing it.

<sigh>
Yes. And in the end, I admit that I agree with you.
And the first step in overcoming personal challenges is admitting they exist.

Still...
There is some fun in being just a tad bit insane 

*Grins* Life is full of contradictions, and the human mind is no less complex. Being a *tad* insane is often the only way to remain sane '>

Logically *shakes head* I don't always deal in logic well I'm afraid. We are emotional creatures and sometimes logic just gets in the way. Logically I have to admit all the above, but secretly? Secretly I know that it is possible for me to overlook, forgot and sometimes, ignore something without consciously knowing I am doing it.

Looking back in hindsight we see things we never see at the time of it happening. Personally, I trust my insticts and emotional responces to any given situation, over and above the logical explanation.

It is all so very complicated, the mind and most of all, other peoples minds!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Queensilverwing, 23 septembre 2011 - 10:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               Personally I think I understand how my brain works better now having lived with it for quite a few years now. My mind/brain tends to focus on things that have been recently or repetively experienced. You get this sort of experience of standing outside your brain and watching it, which seems weird to say, but there is this sort of dicotomy within my mind whereas I feel, at times, almost detached from my own thinking. I once told of friend of mine to think of all thoughts as coming from some alien intelligence, and to question them as such. In other words just because you thought of something there is no reason not to question it thoroughly. Or more simply, too critically examine you own thinking even as you would statements others make about their own thoughts.

In reference to WebShaman.  Today I was on the golf course and there were medium blue gray clouds with the sun peeking through.  Some geese flew overhead, honking. Just being, which is sometimes so hard to do, without anything added, no thought of being, just being, is really cool. 
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ffbj, 23 septembre 2011 - 11:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

Secretly I know that it is possible for me to overlook, forgot and sometimes, ignore something without consciously knowing I am doing it.

Looking back in hindsight we see things we never see at the time of it happening. Personally, I trust my insticts and emotional responces to any given situation, over and above the logical explanation.

So, let us examine this a bit more closely, for it requires such.

First of all, if one has forgotten something (and I mean truly forgotten, not just "I don't WANT to remember!" sort of thing, which is denial) - then one has not truly deceived oneself in such a situation.  For one is not in a condition of knowing and not knowing at the same time - one truly does not know.

In regards to "overlook" and "ignore" - well, you may indeed do such things, especially in the "heat of the moment" or some other emotional state, but you still know better!  You are just choosing not to heed your better judgement in such a case.  This is not deceiving yourself at all.  You know, but just choose to overlook or ignore it.  And yes, this is a conscious choice, obviously, even if it is an emotionally based one.

One does *NOT* have to act on one's emotions!  If the opposite were true, people would be getting away with all sorts of crimes, based on some sort of "me fuhlens made me do it, yer Honor!"

Now, one can get a milder sentence due to such emotional choices, but one is not freed from consequence here, because one DOES know what one is doing, one just chooses not to heed it.

It is like getting angry - you get angry.  Ok.  Physical responses excepted (your heat beats faster, pulserate higher, eyes dilate, adrenaline levels rise, breath rate rises, etc), but you do not need to act out based on your anger.  You might feel compelled, sure.  But the actual impulse is not the action itself - that requires a choice.  You may, in such a circumstance do something against your better judgement, but you are AWARE that you are doing so, however remotely.  You may not consider that important in the heat of the emotion, but you know that it is.

I still don't believe it is possible to know and not know at the same time - there is still a remote part, somewhere, that is aware, regardless of the stimuli.

I have been in war, probably one of the most sever emotional types of experience that one can have.  And despite some of the things I experienced there, I can say that I was still in a state of awareness - sometimes in a way that is hard to explain.  Even after a landmine exploded near me - and I was in a state of shock, I was still *aware* - a detached part of me was.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 24 septembre 2011 - 11:33 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Queensilverwing wrote...

Kail said:
To be able to deceive oneself one should be at the same time both aware of the truth (as the deceiver) and not (as the one being deceived). Since there's only one subject, this is a logical impossibility. It's a pretty simple concept, although language and figures of speech seem to muddle the waters a little to a superficial approach.

*Blinks, then blinks again and lids her eyes in astonishment*

Damn, you got me there Kail...in order to deceive one has to be aware of the deception. Perhaps I was thinking of or should have used the word delusional?

Perhaps. One creates a fictional scenario one wants to believe in because it's more comforting and chooses to ignore and avoid as much as possible thinking about the real one... but if the individual and his thoughts (more o rless conscious) are taken as a whole one is aware of what one is doing... that is, you are aware you are actually avoiding to think about the consequences of your unhealthy habit, so you are not really deceiving yourself. You are just being a ******, if you allow me to say it '>

As for luck Vs genetics *grins* ahh now, that's a tussle for another day...genetics will win out but it could be fun getting there '>

Well, I dunno, actually having good genetics is a form of luck, ain't it? '> The genes one gets are the result of something we can define random (akin to selecting lottery numbers), but any expert on the matter please feel free to correct me.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <feeling in a quasi-mellow state...>

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Well, I dunno, actually having good genetics is a form of luck, ain't it? '> The genes one gets are the result of something we can define random (akin to selecting lottery numbers), but any expert on the matter please feel free to correct me.

Interesting thing I read... The way chlorophyll captures photons and converts them to electrons is infinitely (literally) tricky, and so much more efficient than solar cells.  The tricky part comes from a structure that provides an infinity of paths for energy to take... when a photon strikes, it *finds its own* most efficient path and generates the maximum number of electrons. 

Perhaps it *is* luck, or perhaps it (all things chaotic and complex) are systems that are only waiting for the key bits (within a range of permissable bits) to fall into place, where upon they chug and churn and emit tiny puffs of steam and coronal discharge and with a spitting sound create something new :-)

I propose that if genetics were truly random, people would also be *much* more varied :-) 

<...in the morning sun>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               

Kail Wrote:
Perhaps. One creates a fictional scenario one wants to believe in because it's more comforting and chooses to ignore and avoid as much as possible thinking about the real one... but if the individual and his thoughts (more o rless conscious) are taken as a whole one is aware of what one is doing... that is, you are aware you are actually avoiding to think about the consequences of your unhealthy habit, so you are not really deceiving yourself. You are just being a ******, if you allow me to say it '>

If you're just using the above theory for habits such as smoking, drinking, other drug use; then yeah, at some point one has to face the reality of our actions. ...At some point, but not everyone has the strength or will to change, while others do.

Ya know, I think I'm going to go with what I started with originally in this thread about self-deception. Here is an example:

For a week I've had a horrid toothache, after grinding my teeth in my sleep two nights ago, I decided I'd had enough and was going to take a very strong pain killer. It was great! I had no pain...down side? I conked out for 4 hours and when I awoke I found my hubby drawing the curtains in the bedroom. I was completely dazed by the effects of this drug, and I remember asking if it was today or tomorrow.

An hour later I crawled out of bed and looked at my husband...

"Why did you growl at me that way and tell me to go back to sleep?" I asked. My husband looked completely confused and replied...

"I didn't. You asked what time it was and I closed the curtains"

Now, I can still swear that he grumped, but at the same time I knew that would have totally out of character for him. yet I still see/hear him doing it. Why? Perhaps I was subconsciously feeling guilty because I'd fallen asleep in the middle of the day and he'd fed and put the kids to sleep by the time I managed to drag my arse out'a bed.  TBH, I have no idea, but something made me believe that he HAD been grumpy with me...and my own guilt did that just fine. it was and still is, as real to me now as it was last night.

He never did it, it never happened...I've deceived myself subconsciously and had absolutely no control over it...or prior knowledge.

That is just an example...and without going into past history, I can say that from experience that there have been times in my life where everybody else reality has had no bearing on my own. Through no direct fault of my own. Sometimes the mind deceives as a means of protection, it shuts down in many ways and on many levels. We don't always know what we are doing is wrong, that would take a huge amount of self analysis...something the mind simply won't allow at that point in time.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               No, you did not "deceive" yourself - you were not in a state of knowing and not knowing at the same time.

There are two different scenarios here :

Your brain was affected by a drug, and was groggy with body chemicals that induce sleep.  That means that signal input to the senses is not always organized correctly.  

So, either your brain "recorded" stimuli incorrectly, leading to you actually believing (based on what your brain has put together) that your hubby growled at you.

OR

He actually did, and is denying it (for whatever reason - probably to avoid conflict).

In this situation, you are just not sure of the actual events as they happened (much like a blackout when one drinks to much, etc).  You can try to go back and "rebuild" things, and base the "holes" on behavior, etc that would be expected in such a situation.

But it is not the same as actually knowing what happened (re: when your mind is lucid and recording things properly).

You did not deceive yourself.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               *Rubs chin thoughtfully*

I was actually discussing this with hubby during a few minutes of peace where the kids were otherwise occupied.

The thing is, now with a clear head, I know he never growled.

(1) it is completely out of character
(2) he's not a man to lie or evade with me, or anyone else.

I understand that I felt guilty for conking out. There is no reason to feel guilty, but part of that is me thinking I should be able to cope with a stupid toothache and painkiller. Pfft, silly pride on my part.

But, I still remember the whole scenario...my mind is telling me that is how it happened, even if another part of my mind (the reasoning/logical part) is telling me I know why I hallucinated the whole thing. It's like the hallucination will not let go, even though it's been found out by the clear reasoning mind.

I have deceived myself - even though I know that the picture my mind wants me to think of as truth is wrong. The drug messed my head up, and so it keeps it as a real memory.

As my hubby said " If I had done something like that, you have told me to F**k off in no uncertain terms!" *Grins, which is the truth...I am a VERY bad dragon at the moment of waking up...words slip from my mouth that would not do at any other time '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               No, you haven't.  Because you *know* that he didn't growl at you.  You state so.

You are aware that he didn't, even though you stubbornly insist that he did.  Even though he did not.

In other words, you do not wish to embrace reality.  Because it does not coincide with what *you* would like it to be.  Regardless of reason (guilt, etc).

Are you seriously stating that you do not know here?  And know?  I mean...think about it, my dragon friend.

You do know where such leads...I hope.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               

WebShaman wrote...

No, you haven't.  Because you *know* that he didn't growl at you.  You state so.

You are aware that he didn't, even though you stubbornly insist that he did.  Even though he did not.

In other words, you do not wish to embrace reality.  Because it does not coincide with what *you* would like it to be.  Regardless of reason (guilt, etc).

Are you seriously stating that you do not know here?  And know?  I mean...think about it, my dragon friend.

*Shakes head* pfft, it is SO hard sometimes to write what I mean. OK, I *Know* it didn't happen, I accept that. I *know* that my brain has created a false memory....all I'm trying to say is that just because it's false, does not make it any less a memory. If I didn't have the kind of fantastic relasionship with my husband (after 29 years I'd better have!), I could be fooled into thinking such a false memory was true. It's not even like growling at someone is a bad thing, *that* is why it is so darn silly!

You do know where such leads...I hope.

Oh on this I'm not confused at all...been there, done that.