Identify/Lore issue...seeking a console solution.

[Legacy_Hardcore UFO]

               Too many things are being referred to by the same word here for either side's argument to be comprehensive or cohesive.

This is what I am seeing here: "there's no one to cheat, therefore it isn't cheating" where "cheating" refers to some automatic acceptance of authority in non-SP cases. This is not opposed to the argument that "using the console in SP is cheating" because people mean different things by "cheating".

There is the legal definition, the popular definition, and the dictionary definition - all of which are words which cannot provide proof "beyond the shadow of a doubt" in the absence of an authority figure like a judge to support the illusion that this is possible.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               EXCEPT that in a Closed SP Environment, the higher authority is the Player in question.  There is no absence of an authority figure here.  The Player themself is the highest authority.

Please look at QSW's post.  She can do anything she wishes with her Closed SP game, and it is not cheating.  She is making the rules for herself to play by.  No-one else is.  She is the highest authority in her Closed SP Environment.

There is no second person (observer) involved, either.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Personally I like Lore, though I recall Vulcano may have been opposed as he is in the business, I believe. He may have posted some Haks of this, as well as his Crafting Hak on the Vault

Edit: Nope; he disliked Appraise; reason for the Haks. Sorry.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 17 septembre 2011 - 02:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               

Hardcore UFO wrote...

There is the legal definition, the popular definition, and the dictionary definition - all of which are words which cannot provide proof "beyond the shadow of a doubt" in the absence of an authority figure like a judge to support the illusion that this is possible.

That's the English language for you, always twisting and turning like a snake, just waiting to strike! *Grins*

Let's look at a few simple examples here maybe?

I have the PGCC mods, where I can create a new PC and customise it to my personal specifications. But, the PGCC stores do not have stacked items, namely healing pots or scrolls etc. I really hate having to buy one item at a time, so I go into the toolset and I create and place into the stores stacks of 10 items for the things I use a lot. Heals pots, scrolls, kits. I also while I am there place a very large sum of money which upon each click I can buy for a few GP. I will need money to customise and build my custom armour and weapons at the forge. I could alter the scripts on the forge so that it cost me nothing, but my way is easier for me...plus I always have a quick supply of gold whenever I go into PGCC.

Is that cheating? I don't see it that way. I see it as modifying a character crator module to my specific needs and wants. From the PGCC I can go into any SP environment I want and play a game, with gear I have created for that module and the class/level my PC is. If I am using a level 4 PC all my gear may well have enhancements for that level or a level higher.

I find quite often that module authors have a crypt, and within that dank place is a mummy that my un-enhanced hammer/longsword cannot hurt. I'm not the running type, so I'll be sure to have a basic +1 sword to chop it to bits at my leisure. Is that cheating, or rectifying a problem the mod author did not take into consideration?

Now, say I start a new module with a lvl 1 PC. My intention is to play that module as the author intended, but I really want my PC to look like I want her/him to look. So I bring in a customised PC  but it has no other equipment apart from what the mod author provides. After several hours and levels I find a decided lack of imagination within the stores. Either the equipment is far too expensive for my PC to ever be able to afford such gear or non-existent. I like the setting, but I dislike the restrictions because, rather than add to my enjoyment or the game, they are impeding my progress and my enjoyment. Well heck, I've invested several hours of gaming here, I like the story and I can see from experience, that given the chance I could continue to have a lot of challenging encounters if only I could afford that darn blade at the store in town. Did I miss some big payout quest? Did the author simply not know how the lack was ruining the game for me...or was the author testing with his/her own god like PC and using their own judgement that a low level PC would have a challenge?

Well, a little gold handed to my PC via the console will correct my problems, and I go and buy that sword and mebbe even that sweet looking armour. For the next few hours I have a great time, I complete the module to my satisfaction.

Since I am the only person in that game, my own preferences and desires outweigh that of the module authors. I am the only person who is affected, thus I can do whatever I wish without hurting another single human being by my actions. I make the rules...because I can.

The only time I can be 'cheating' is if I am playing with another PC in MP. Then we decide upon the rules before gaming starts, and those rules will include things like items, weapons and customisations of our PC. We will more than likely play together in the manner intended by the author within a world created for exactly that purpose. Unless of course, my gaming partner and I both decide to change the rules together...then of course we are not cheating, we are simply playing in a manner that we both prefer '>

I have really enjoyed reading this discussion, there are so many angles that different people see the issue of cheating from. In the end, I think, whatever is good for YOU as a single player, is not cheating. Why would a person deliberately cheat themselves...it isn't human (or dragon!) nature '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               It;s cheating just a milder/different form of it, there are degrees of cheating.
For instance to use another game, Chess, as an example. In a sp game against my chess program, which is very hard to beat rated about 2900 if that means anything to anyone.  You can play in a rated game in which you can't cheat, that is you can't take back a move.  While if you play it training mode you can alter your moves, explore different lines, etc... though you can't actually give yourself a piece and take another piece from the machine player.  That refers to the degree.  So this sp proof of no cheating sort of falls flat.  Anyhow that is my opinion on this topic.
Anyhow I think the saying: 'Methinks thou protests too loudly' sort of applies here too.  In that if it really wasn't cheating then why bother with continually arguing the point, and even if you get a number of people to agree with you, that it is not cheating, that means very little. If you wish to have an opinion that it is not cheating, fine, but please stop arguing that your opinion is a fact.
That's my opinion and that's a fact Jack.
Done with this forever.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ffbj, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:00 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ffbj wrote...

It;s cheating just a milder/different form of it, there are degrees of cheating.

Idiocy.

For instance to use another game, Chess, as an example. In a sp game against my chess program, which is very hard to beat rated about 2900 if that means anything to anyone.  You can play in a rated game in which you can't cheat, that is you can't take back a move.

Which in SP is not cheating at all.

While if you play it training mode you can alter your moves, explore different lines, etc... though you can't actually give yourself a piece and take another piece from the machine player.  That refers to the degree.  So this sp proof of no cheating sort of falls flat.

Based on what? On a game that can be played with different settings? Just like NWN which has inbuilt difficulty levels and consolle commands not to mention the other endless possibilities of customization? Sorry to break your delusion, but the proof stands rock strong as ever.

Anyhow that is my opinion on this topic.

And as already said your opinion is irrelevant: the facts are that it is not possible to cheat in SP. Keep living in the middle ages and think the Earth is at the center of the universe; it won't change reality.

Anyhow I think the saying: 'Methinks thou protests too loudly' sort of applies here too.  In that if it really wasn't cheating then why bother with continually arguing the point

Because fools need to be shut up (since it's not allowed to get rid of them permanently).

and even if you get a number of people to agree with you, that it is not cheating, that means very little.

Indeed. It just means there are some who have intelligence of the matter. As said elsewhere, no opinion changes the fact it is not possible to cheat in SP.

If you wish to have an opinion that it is not cheating

It' snot an opinion, it's a statement of fact. Same as it's not an opinion 4+4=8.

fine, but please stop arguing that your opinion is a fact.

Nice strawman. It's the delusional believers there can be cheating in SP that are arguing; arguing their unfounded, uneducated and unintelligent opinion against a recognized and rather self evident fact. Those that recognize the fact for what it is, do not argue; they simply state the obvious and they do so against the foolishness of delusional minds.

That's my opinion and that's a fact Jack.

It' s a fact that is your opinion. But your opinion does not constitute any fact, and as such is simply irrelevant.

Done with this forever.

Good. Less idiocy being spammed around from now on.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Good. Less idiocy being spammed around from now on.

Evidently not....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               Oh my!

I didn't really want to be part of a war, I'm really not that kind of dragon at all. I much prefer slurping tea and eating fresh cream scones. I haven't eaten a warrior for an age. '>

No really, I'm perfectly OK with those of you who have the opinion that my personal modifications could be viewed as cheating. I'm happy to allow you the right to your opinion, after all, different views make up the world so why not here?

I don't feel it is that way for me, and I'm OK with that as well. I really don't feel the need to prove or change your mind. Merely discussing the differences in our personal views was fun; I'm not in it to change your mind '>

This has been enlightening though, I forgot how err athletic forums posts could get!

Be well all

*Bows*

QSW
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Good. Less idiocy being spammed around from now on.

Evidently not....

Aye, since you are still around.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__Guile]

               4 + 4 = (10 - 2 + 6 )  3 / 5.25

Just saying... '>

------------------------------------

Anyway, to answer the OP...

~

DebugMode 1

SetINT 98

& you would be able to ID ANYTHING in the game, trust me, I'm a salesman.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _Guile, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:32 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               ^ I had thought the same thing, but Skill Pts will also rise creating new issues to resolve.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               One can choose not to use extra skillpoints on lvl up... of course one has to track how many skillpoints he would have had without the extra int. A piece of custom gear granting +50 lore is a pretty viable solution, as is letoing the character (and not having ELC turned on).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               QSW, you are not part of the "war" (whatever that is) - you stated what you wished to on the topic, explained your reasoning, provided examples, and everything in a pleasant, rational manner.

You even provide room for others to have differing opinions.

That is far different than trying to prove something here, IMHO.

Thank you for taking some of your time to post in this thread.  I personally enjoyed it.

On to Elhanan -

"If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself" (Gal 6:3)

Heh.  That is in no means a definition, it is opinion stated as fact (which is obviously is not).  Who is "deciding" that someone is nothing?

IMHO, nobody is "nothing"!  What a withering, horrible thing to say about someone.  It is also impossible (you simply cannot be "nothing" - it is a logical fallacy.  At the very least, you are the material of which you are composed of, IF nothing more).

As it is impossible to be nothing, the rest of the statement then is not relevant, and as I have proved before (and again), one cannot deceive themselves (for, one cannot simply be "nothing", can one?  Therefore, one must be something.  As such, one cannot deceive oneself accordingly).



Please continue to use that as a sig!  It is the best evidence so far in a sig that one cannot deceive oneself and that it is impossible to cheat in a Closed SP Environment!!!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

WebShaman wrote...

On to Elhanan -

"If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself" (Gal 6:3)

Heh.  That is in no means a definition, it is opinion stated as fact (which is obviously is not).  Who is "deciding" that someone is nothing?

IMHO, nobody is "nothing"!  What a withering, horrible thing to say about someone.  It is also impossible (you simply cannot be "nothing" - it is a logical fallacy.  At the very least, you are the material of which you are composed of, IF nothing more).

As it is impossible to be nothing, the rest of the statement then is not relevant, and as I have proved before (and again), one cannot deceive themselves (for, one cannot simply be "nothing", can one?  Therefore, one must be something.  As such, one cannot deceive oneself accordingly).


Please continue to use that as a sig!  It is the best evidence so far in a sig that one cannot deceive oneself and that it is impossible to cheat in a Closed SP Environment!!!

Will do, WS. Take a glance at Gal 6:1-5 for the immediate context.

This speaks of gently restoring a brother caught in a sin, bearing each other's burdens, and testing one's own actions. Then that person can take pride in themselves w/o comparing themselves to others. This quoted verse seems to suggest that a brother that deems themselves too great for such a task is incorrect in their self-evaluation.

I never offered this verse as proof of some silly debate on cheating and solo gaming; only my own agreement on the subject of self-deception.

And there are others: "Do not deceive yourselves. If one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight."  ( I Cor 3:18-19a).. Or in Jer37:9, the prophet was told to inform the King that he was deceiving himself if he believed the Babylonians would withdraw and leave them alone.

A figure of speech? Perhaps, but one in which I agree completely.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Elhanan wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

On to Elhanan -

"If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself" (Gal 6:3)

Heh.  That is in no means a definition, it is opinion stated as fact (which is obviously is not).  Who is "deciding" that someone is nothing?

IMHO, nobody is "nothing"!  What a withering, horrible thing to say about someone.  It is also impossible (you simply cannot be "nothing" - it is a logical fallacy.  At the very least, you are the material of which you are composed of, IF nothing more).

As it is impossible to be nothing, the rest of the statement then is not relevant, and as I have proved before (and again), one cannot deceive themselves (for, one cannot simply be "nothing", can one?  Therefore, one must be something.  As such, one cannot deceive oneself accordingly).


Please continue to use that as a sig!  It is the best evidence so far in a sig that one cannot deceive oneself and that it is impossible to cheat in a Closed SP Environment!!!

Will do, WS. Take a glance at Gal 6:1-5 for the immediate context.

This speaks of gently restoring a brother caught in a sin, bearing each other's burdens, and testing one's own actions. Then that person can take pride in themselves w/o comparing themselves to others. This quoted verse seems to suggest that a brother that deems themselves too great for such a task is incorrect in their self-evaluation.

I never offered this verse as proof of some silly debate on cheating and solo gaming; only my own agreement on the subject of self-deception.

Your own agreement to falsehood, since deceiving oneself is not possible.

And there are others: "Do not deceive yourselves. If one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight."  ( I Cor 3:18-19a).. Or in Jer37:9, the prophet was told to inform the King that he was deceiving himself if he believed the Babylonians would withdraw and leave them alone.

A figure of speech? Perhaps, but one in which I agree completely.

That explains a lot. And it doesn't make the impossibility of deceiving oneself any less impossible. Your opinion is simply worthless to the facts one cannot deceive himself nor cheat in SP. Same as those believing the Earth was in the center of the universe and that everything was revolving around it didn't change the reality of facts.