Identify/Lore issue...seeking a console solution.

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lightfoot8 wrote...

I agree with your deffintiion of cheat.  WebShaman however makes a better case with his argument with his assumption that you have to have someone to cheat in order to cheat.   I however in agreement with your deffinition would say that if you break the rules you are cheating.  

If you just were willing to educate yourself, which you are self admittedly not, you would discover that cheating implies deceipt.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:24 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Lightfoot8 wrote...

Well I hope I missed the Quote form the Players Handbook you are talking about. For the one I quoted basicly says: Dont worrie about it if you do not know how to play D&D or roll a saving throw  against a DC, The game takes care of it for you.  It say nothing about changing the rulles as being cheating or not.

Ah, yes.... "the rules". I keep hearing all this reference to "the rules" during these discussions about NWN, but after spending hours reading the manual that comes with the game, I couldn't find any rules listed in it. Since you agree that you have to break the rules to cheat, then there must be some rules to break. None of the people posting in any of the "cheating" threads created this game, and therefore they don't have the right to make up the rules for everyone else governing SP. All they've done so far is espouse their own opinion about how they think the game "should" be played. If there were any rules to be broken, they'd be in the game manual. 

I challenge anyone to post a copy of "the rules" that came with their NWN game manual/players handbook. 


I'm sure everyone here would love to see exactly what rules have been broken.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Contrary to public opinion, the ethics of cheating lies within the personal universe of the individual.  No community consensus, act of Congrees or legal document can alter one's personal mores.  Such ritualistic conventions can be food for thought and subject for debate but won't change anyone's personal convictions. The attitude will persist ...although the outward expression of one's "guts"  may need to be modified to coexist within a social environment. The hashing and re-hashing just exposes some polarization of opinions... nothing more...  doesn'talter anything or establish an absolute, being based on a finite sampling of opinion.

Obviously, the OP was subject to some amount of personal conviction when posing the original inquiry or wouldn't have qualified the request.  Apparently there must be some innate definition of cheating that trancends any printed resource or general public consensus.

Meanwhile, my games of solitaire will go much faster now that my claim of color-blindedness has been fully vindicated. '>

As you were, squad.  Carry on, my friends... '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

Contrary to public opinion, the ethics of cheating lies within the personal universe of the individual.  No community consensus, act of Congrees or legal document can alter one's personal mores.  Such ritualistic conventions can be food for thought and subject for debate but won't change anyone's personal convictions. The attitude will persist ...although the outward expression of one's "guts"  may need to be modified to coexist within a social environment. The hashing and re-hashing just exposes some polarization of opinions... nothing more...  doesn'talter anything or establish an absolute, being based on a finite sampling of opinion.

Obviously, the OP was subject to some amount of personal conviction when posing the original inquiry or wouldn't have qualified the request.  Apparently there must be some innate definition of cheating that trancends any printed resource or general public consensus.

Meanwhile, my games of solitaire will go much faster now that my claim of color-blindedness has been fully vindicated. '>

As you were, squad.  Carry on, my friends... '>

'> 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

the ethics of cheating lies within the personal universe of the individual.

Except that this is really not about the ethics involved, but rather the core definition itself of what cheating is, and relating that to the game NWN (and I further refine it in reference to a Closed SP Environment).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

WebShaman wrote...

the ethics of cheating lies within the personal universe of the individual.

Except that this is really not about the ethics involved, but rather the core definition itself of what cheating is, and relating that to the game NWN (and I further refine it in reference to a Closed SP Environment).

Aye.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lightfoot8]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...
 
I challenge anyone to post a copy of "the rules" that came with their NWN game manual/players handbook. 

 

You are kidding right?   First you state that the rules are hard coded and can not be modified.  Now you are saying there are none.   Well I guess you would not be able to cheat in multi-player either then. 

Well there is no way I am posting all of the rules, So I guess I will just post quote with this minor case of lore.  

Keep in mind that I have not heard a single person state that anybody is not allowed to break the rules in single players games.   So I really do not know what all of this fuss is about over the use or the word cheat.  It is still breaking the original rules of the game any way you look at it.   If someone enjoys giving there characters 99 strength and uber gear and storming through the OC.  Who cares,  If they enjoy themselves It is a win. After all that is why they bought the game, for the enjoyment.  

Ok, in the introduction section of the  NWN_OnlineManual.pdf that shiped with the game, there is a section called  
What’s Included in this Manual  the discription of the Third section is as follows:

The third section, Player’s Handbook, describes the Dungeons &
Dragons rules as they are used in Neverwinter Nights. The information
in this section is designed to help you understand the rules
behind the game, and to maximize your character’s interaction
with the world during the course of adventuring.

 

so anything in the The third section, Player’s Handbook, are the rules. 
In this Third section if you look up Skill Rank you will find. 

 
Ranks: Skill ranks are purchased with skill points, which are
awarded both at character creation and with each new class level.
Every skill has a rank, from 0 (no training) to 23 (maximum
ranks for a 20th-level character). Ranks are added into every
check made with the skill, so the more ranks a character has, the
better his skill checks will be.

No for how many skills points each players gets is according to there class for example:  Form the documentation that shiped with the game. 

 
FIGHTER
Fighters can be many things, from soldiers to criminal enforcers.
Some see adventure as a way to get rich, while others use their
skills to protect the innocent. Fighters have the best all-around
fighting capabilities of the PC classes, and they are trained to use
all standard weapons and armor. A fighter’s rigorous martial training
grants him many bonus feats as he progresses, and high-level
fighters have access to special melee maneuvers and exotic
weapons not available to any other character.
• Hit Die: d10.
• Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and
shields.
• Skill Points (*4 at 1st level): 2 + Int Modifier.

There are also other rules scattered about and packed in the entire section. in fact the section is the players rules
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Lightfoot8 wrote...



Ok, in the introduction section of the  NWN_OnlineManual.pdf that shiped with the game, there is a section called  
What’s Included in this Manual  the discription of the Third section is as follows:

The third section, Player’s Handbook, describes the Dungeons &
Dragons rules as they are used in Neverwinter Nights. The information
in this section is designed to help you understand the rules
behind the game, and to maximize your character’s interaction
with the world during the course of adventuring.

 

so anything in the The third section, Player’s Handbook, are the rules. 


There are also other rules scattered about and packed in the entire section. in fact the section is the players rules

Alright, old friend.... let me make sure I understand where you're coming from here. You consider the "Players Handbook" section of the Game Manual, in its entirety, to be "the rules"? You believe altering anything that's outlined in the "Players Handbook" section of the Game Manual is cheating? Is that correct? And I'm just trying to establish if that's how you see it, not whether you consider it a good or bad thing.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lightfoot8]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Alright, old friend.... let me make sure I understand where you're coming from here. You consider the "Players Handbook" section of the Game Manual, in its entirety, to be "the rules"? You believe altering anything that's outlined in the "Players Handbook" section of the Game Manual is cheating? Is that correct? And I'm just trying to establish if that's how you see it, not whether you consider it a good or bad thing.

 
My opinion is that It is just a crash course for a player who is not familiar with AD&D, that the game is based off of. To help them understand the rules.  The rules are by no means all inclusive nor all binding.   Nor do I think that changing things always counts as cheating.   It really comes down to intent.   For example adding a Hench AI, Does not give a henchman any more power then the rules of AD&D allows,  It just gives the player better control and more options.   It is really the intent for the changing/modifying of the rules.  If the sole reason is to give your PC an advantage over the other creatures in the game it is cheating.  I would also say that the rules apply to the OC only.  Even though they could apply to other modules, it is the builder/creator of the module that is responsible for balancing out there game.   It is there sweat and vision that gives us all the great modules that are out there.   When rules they implement into there creation are tweaked and   we break the rules that they  have laid  out, we unbalance there creation  In a Well written module it is the balance of the rules vs the content that is the hardest thing to get right.   Modifying the rules to ones own advantage in such a module removes something that the builder put a lot of work into.   So to me even without a book that comes along with the game, It is cheating to grant the PC anything other then just what they get by normal play.    

But lets face it.   There is nothing wrong with the player doing just that.   If I am playing  Klondike solitaire and get to a place where I have no moves and decide to start flipping cards one at a time instead of three at a time.  I have cheated.  Who cares Im having fun,  Or maybe getting frustrated. It does not matter I can play the game the way I want to.  I may not be cheating at my game. But I sure am cheating at   Klondike solitaire.  
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Lightfoot8 wrote...

My opinion is that It is just a crash course for a player who is not familiar with AD&D, that the game is based off of. To help them understand the rules.  The rules are by no means all inclusive nor all binding.   Nor do I think that changing things always counts as cheating.   It really comes down to intent.   For example adding a Hench AI, Does not give a henchman any more power then the rules of AD&D allows,  It just gives the player better control and more options.   It is really the intent for the changing/modifying of the rules.  If the sole reason is to give your PC an advantage over the other creatures in the game it is cheating.  I would also say that the rules apply to the OC only.  Even though they could apply to other modules, it is the builder/creator of the module that is responsible for balancing out there game.   It is there sweat and vision that gives us all the great modules that are out there.   When rules they implement into there creation are tweaked and   we break the rules that they  have laid  out, we unbalance there creation  In a Well written module it is the balance of the rules vs the content that is the hardest thing to get right.   Modifying the rules to ones own advantage in such a module removes something that the builder put a lot of work into.   So to me even without a book that comes along with the game, It is cheating to grant the PC anything other then just what they get by normal play.    

Here's how I see it. It makes no difference whether it's someone using the console to change "The Game", or someone using scripts, haks, overrides, etc. to change "The Game". If the first person is using the console to change the game, and the second person is using scripts, haks, etc. to change the game, the bottom line is they're both changing "The Game" to the way they think it should be played, from the way it was originally designed by the game creators and shipped in the box. The game allows for both methods to be used by anyone who wishes to use them in any way they wish to use them. 

Now, the reason I've been involved in this at all is because I noticed there were a lot of people who used the term "cheater" in a derrogotory manor, and to insinuate that anyone who changed "The Game" by use of the console was some how morally inferior to those who change "The Game" by the use of scripts, haks, etc. The truth is neither is any different than the other. Both methods, whether  you're creating a module or just playing one, is the same result. You've changed the game from it's original format to the way you think it should be played. You can argue that using the scripts and haks to create a module is different than using the console to change one because you're trying to "balance" it, but it still boils down to changing "The Game" to the way you think it should be played. The Game was balanced by the game creators when they put it on the market. If you don't like the way they balanced it, and you change it with either method, then either both scenarios are cheating, or neither is. Taking something away from/giving something to one group, gives an advantage to another, whether it's your PC that's benefiting, or the NPC's. Console or toolset... it makes no difference. Changing the game to the way you think it should be played is either cheating or it isn't, no matter which method you use. 
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Gregor Wyrmbane, 14 septembre 2011 - 02:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lightfoot8 wrote...

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Alright, old friend.... let me make sure I understand where you're coming from here. You consider the "Players Handbook" section of the Game Manual, in its entirety, to be "the rules"? You believe altering anything that's outlined in the "Players Handbook" section of the Game Manual is cheating? Is that correct? And I'm just trying to establish if that's how you see it, not whether you consider it a good or bad thing.

 
My opinion is that It is just a crash course for a player who is not familiar with AD&D, that the game is based off of. To help them understand the rules.  The rules are by no means all inclusive nor all binding.   Nor do I think that changing things always counts as cheating.   It really comes down to intent.   For example adding a Hench AI, Does not give a henchman any more power then the rules of AD&D allows,  It just gives the player better control and more options.   It is really the intent for the changing/modifying of the rules.  If the sole reason is to give your PC an advantage over the other creatures in the game it is cheating.  I would also say that the rules apply to the OC only.  Even though they could apply to other modules, it is the builder/creator of the module that is responsible for balancing out there game.   It is there sweat and vision that gives us all the great modules that are out there.   When rules they implement into there creation are tweaked and   we break the rules that they  have laid  out, we unbalance there creation  In a Well written module it is the balance of the rules vs the content that is the hardest thing to get right.   Modifying the rules to ones own advantage in such a module removes something that the builder put a lot of work into.   So to me even without a book that comes along with the game, It is cheating to grant the PC anything other then just what they get by normal play.    

But lets face it.   There is nothing wrong with the player doing just that.   If I am playing  Klondike solitaire and get to a place where I have no moves and decide to start flipping cards one at a time instead of three at a time.  I have cheated.  Who cares Im having fun,  Or maybe getting frustrated. It does not matter I can play the game the way I want to.  I may not be cheating at my game. But I sure am cheating at   Klondike solitaire.  

No you have not cheated. But how to expect someone who self admittedly stopped educating himself to understand what cheating means? Time to go back to school, dude!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Here's how I see it. It makes no difference whether it's someone using the console to change "The Game", or someone using scripts, haks, overrides, etc. to change "The Game". If the first person is using the console to change the game, and the second person is using scripts, haks, etc. to change the game, the bottom line is they're both changing "The Game" to the way they think it should be played, from the way it was originally designed by the game creators and shipped in the box. The game allows for both methods to be used by anyone who wishes to use them in any way they wish to use them. 

Now, the reason I've been involved in this at all is because I noticed there were a lot of people who used the term "cheater" in a derrogotory manor, and to insinuate that anyone who changed "The Game" by use of the console was some how morally inferior to those who change "The Game" by the use of scripts, haks, etc. The truth is neither is any different than the other. Both methods, whether  you're creating a module or just playing one, is the same result. You've changed the game from it's original format to the way you think it should be played. You can argue that using the scripts and haks to create a module is different than using the console to change one because you're trying to "balance" it, but it still boils down to changing "The Game" to the way you think it should be played. The Game was balanced by the game creators when they put it on the market. If you don't like the way they balanced it, and you change it with either method, then either both scenarios are cheating, or neither is. Taking something away from/giving something to one group, gives an advantage to another, whether it's your PC that's benefiting, or the NPC's. Console or toolset... it makes no difference. Changing the game to the way you think it should be played is either cheating or it isn't, no matter which method you use. 

There are three subjects:
1) player character
you can certainly change your player character, by doing that you dont
change neither game client or module, doing this is obvious cheating

2) module
I have also not seen any module modification, if the module is online
then you cant, if its in single player still most players dont know how
and it also is pointless as you cant change the module after you already
saved it.

3) game client
you can get override from vault that will let you for example take any class without needed alignment. Now this is the game client modification that also applies for any single player module.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Here's how I see it. It makes no difference whether it's someone using the console to change "The Game", or someone using scripts, haks, overrides, etc. to change "The Game". If the first person is using the console to change the game, and the second person is using scripts, haks, etc. to change the game, the bottom line is they're both changing "The Game" to the way they think it should be played, from the way it was originally designed by the game creators and shipped in the box. The game allows for both methods to be used by anyone who wishes to use them in any way they wish to use them. 

Now, the reason I've been involved in this at all is because I noticed there were a lot of people who used the term "cheater" in a derrogotory manor, and to insinuate that anyone who changed "The Game" by use of the console was some how morally inferior to those who change "The Game" by the use of scripts, haks, etc. The truth is neither is any different than the other. Both methods, whether  you're creating a module or just playing one, is the same result. You've changed the game from it's original format to the way you think it should be played. You can argue that using the scripts and haks to create a module is different than using the console to change one because you're trying to "balance" it, but it still boils down to changing "The Game" to the way you think it should be played. The Game was balanced by the game creators when they put it on the market. If you don't like the way they balanced it, and you change it with either method, then either both scenarios are cheating, or neither is. Taking something away from/giving something to one group, gives an advantage to another, whether it's your PC that's benefiting, or the NPC's. Console or toolset... it makes no difference. Changing the game to the way you think it should be played is either cheating or it isn't, no matter which method you use. 

There are three subjects:
1) player character
you can certainly change your player character, by doing that you dont
change neither game client or module, doing this is obvious cheating

Not at all, nothing done in SP is obviously cheating since there can be no cheating in SP. It is obviously playing the game as one wishes to play it. And that is all.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               What ARE you talking about??!!

There are three subjects:
1) player character
you can certainly change your player character, by doing that you dont
change neither game client or module, doing this is obvious cheating

Assuming that we are playing in a Closed SP Environment, I can change the game client, module, character .bic, or just about anything else, and it is factually not cheating.  I am allowed to do this.  I have ultimate authority to do this.  No-one has a higher authority than myself here in my Closed SP Environment.  I allow myself to change whatever and however I wish - and there is no way that it can be considered cheating.  Nobody is being cheated on.

2) module
I have also not seen any module modification, if the module is online
then you cant, if its in single player still most players dont know how
and it also is pointless as you cant change the module after you already
saved it.

One can make changes to online mods - I don't think that needs to be explored here further, as it is obviously cheating if it is done against the will of the Owners of said Mod.  And obviously I can change a mod after saving it - just make changes to the saved mod...I mean...huh?  This is normally how building is done!  Do some changes, save mod, do some more, save, rinse, repeat...

3) game client
you can get override from vault that will let you for example take any class without needed alignment. Now this is the game client modification that also applies for any single player module.

And...??  If I wish to have my classes available without particular alignment(s) in my Closed SP Environment, then I will.  I have decided this.  These are my rules.  I made them.  You play as you see fit.  I will play as I see fit.  You have absolutely no basis to call my rules "cheating" and somehow inferior to yours.  I also do not have any right to insist the same about yours.

If one is playing in a Closed SP Environment, then one is playing as one sees fit according to rules that one has made up themselves and decided on.  Anyone else's opinions, feelings, or thinkings about those rules are irrelevant to whether or not those rules are valid for the player in question.

There is simply no cheating in a Closed SP Environment.  Period.  It is not logically, scientifically possible.  With the notable exception (exceptions prove the rule) that someone has multiple personalities.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Queensilverwing]

               Hrmm Interesting thread...

I think I tend to agree with webShaman and others here when they say that you are not cheating if playing in a closed SP environment.

It could I suppose, be argued that one is cheating against the game and how the mod authors intended the game to be played. But then, since the game is just that, a game, and the authors intentions are not hard and fast rules, the only person you could be cheating against would be yourself. Assuming you see it that way, and depending upon the reasons you're in the game at the time.

For instance, I started to play the NWN2 OC, and I enjoyed it for the most part. However, I was at the stage where the fighting became boring for me and all I really wanted to know was how the story went. I found the story to be gripping, and that became my first and only, priority.

So I used the console to enable me to kill all enemy within the area (rather than God Mode which would have meant I still had to kill the baddies) and moved through the story that way. I also out of curiosity increased my reputation points with certain companions just so I could see how different they would be towards me. *grins* I much preferred Sten when he was a grumpy chops to the soppy fellow he became when I did that!

In NWN1 I often use the console to check details (as well as the toolset to see how areas were made, look at scripts etc) and move from one area to another. If I were playing a mod and I missed something vital way back somewhere, I'd use the console to jump back to that area to retrieve it. I don't consider it cheating, simply furthering my own gaming enjoyment in a SP environment. The only exception is when I've reviewed, then I'm happy to play the game as the author intended.

BioWare made those console commands available when releasing the game, I don't think they would have if they had not accepted or wanted, the players to have the option of using them *shrugs*

LOL, let's face it, I don't think BioWare had any idea of how far the NWN1 community would actually take their game!