Odd question but what is the point of epic levels?

[Legacy_Skildron]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

It becomes an even worse nightmare trying to balance the H&S with all the uber gear available that caps all abilities and skills or imparts capabilities (even epic ones) for classes that would never have access to them otherwise.  Then the hostiles must be customized to be made so difficult that a party of 8 is needed to dispatch them.

Why? You are a very experienced character - usually the annoying confrontation with someone below your level is beyond your notice. But if he insists - then one hit with your fist/weapon or one arrow or spell sorts this out - once and for all. That from a RP point of view. And there are of course villains that keep you occupied.

I think the issue is that at that kind of experience and power one no longer is a front line fighter but a someone who commands other people to do his biding - that's why many epic level modules just feel not right.

Is there any epic module that makes you command others instead of going there yourself - and allowing you to plot and think ahead? But this kind of play would probably need a DM and PnP play.

Greetings
Skildron
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

C Barchuk wrote...

Elhanan, thanks for the recommendations bud. I will definitely try those out. So what is a PW like? I mean is basically like an MMO? I think I would love to try out out a campaign with a small group online. That sounds like a blast. I don't really have friends that play this game so I guess I would to try and find some like-minded friends lol.

Have never played on any MMO, so I do not know the feel of these settings.

However, I know the much lower populations of PW's make for a more managable situaltion for the DM's, much like a class with fewer students. And PW's vary in many factors: style, lvls, rules, etc. Take a look around using your own parameters using reviews, recommendations, etc, and see if a few sound appealing, and give them a shot. Most if not all the PW's I have visted have been cordial and helpful to the newcomers, and Forums, Players, and Staff are often available for info, tips, etc.

My experience on PW's is rather limited, so seek other recommendations, too. Personally, I like the freedom of design, the choice on restrictions, and general playstyle that Aenea has to offer, as well as the treasure vault full of gadgets, gizmo's and additions that are available there. Other worlds should have their own attractions, and strong points to sell; some with more RP emphasis, while others may offer higher powered gear, builds, PRC's, etc

That said, the small tailored campaign is the closest to the PnP experience I have seen, as RP and combat are all managed by close hands on DM care.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

C Barchuk wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Point is to allow builders to make module for these levels. Also 99% of the online modules (PWs) are up to lvl 40.

Excuse my lack of knowlege there but are PW's the equivalent to like World of Warcraft though I hate to use that comparsion? I haven't played anything other single player.

If you havent tried how you can know its like WoW?

I didnt played WoW so I cant tell you but it seems to me that you are just biased.

Dude, he's asking whether, by any chance, NWN PWs are something alike to WoW MMORPG environment.

The answer is yes and no. PWs are a more or less open MP environment going from hack and slash to RP to PvP (solo or team) with a limited number of player slots; basically it's an online module, up for MP play, of a dynamical nature with live DMs interacting with the players (and players interacting with themselves and the module of course). PW stands for Persistant World btw and it implies persistancy of the characters you use there (which in 90% if not more o fthe cases are created and saved on the server hosting the PW, which means you can' timport your local characters).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Krazy Solo]

               Well if you want to get to lvl 40 while playing single player you could try doing SoU - > HotU - > OC...  Of the three OC seems to scale better for higher lvl character play than the previous two.  Although most of the boss battles will seem easier than say if you was normally playing through.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Krazy Solo wrote...

Well if you want to get to lvl 40 while playing single player you could try doing SoU - > HotU - > OC...  Of the three OC seems to scale better for higher lvl character play than the previous two.  Although most of the boss battles will seem easier than say if you was normally playing through.

Due to ECL, if you try the OC with one class over 20, the XP will jump tremendously for kills.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_C Barchuk]

               The OC scales with level? Cool, I didn't know that. Thanks for the tip
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               First of all, there are NO Mods available that do Epic levels real justice.

None.

The reason being, it is just too dang hard to really do all the work!  First of all, you need that Epic story.  That means doing all the places (and much Outer Planes stuff), dialogs, etc.  Massive amount of work there alone!  Then you have to try to balance it all, somehow, so that the character in question actually feels something of an Epic challenge.

About the ONLY "mod" that has done this, is HG (Higher Ground).  Mostly a H&S environment, however.  A very challenging one, tbh, but it is H&S (correct me if I am wrong, Funky).  The amount of work involved in creating HG and the Legendary Levels system must have been horrendous to the point of exhaustion, especially when one thinks of all the balancing issues that Epic levels alone brings into the equation - now add in the Legendary Levels, and one can see what a headache that must have been!

I have yet to encounter any other environment where Epic levels are truly set into the Environment.  Most are just "scaled up" encounters from pre-Epic levels.

NWN2 does this incredibly bad - Epic Gnolls, anyone?  I mean, it is just ludicrous!  E-P-I-C Gnolls!  Why haven't they overthrown their Red Wizard masters already (who are lower level), and conquered Faerun?

Totally ridiculous!

NWN2 only goes to level 30.  That is correct.  And yet, because of BAB continuing to scale in Epic levels, it is horridly broken!  Imagine that scaled another 10 levels!  40 levels of BAB progression??!!!

Ah wanna be uh Monk, yessiree!  So, let me see, how many attacks is that?  Whatcha mean, the Engine just blew up? '>

As for the RP environment in Epic levels, though I hate to say this, Planescape : Torment did an Epic RP environment FLAWLESSLY.  It is the pinnacle to reach for, IMHO.

And no, I am not a Planescape fan!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               Well said Webshaman. When it comes to EPIC Levels, only a few monsters really fit the bill: dragons, beholder-mages, liches, vampires, planars - you get the idea. However, even these need to be scaled up considerably just to challenge one Epic character. Imagine scaling them for a party of Epic characters!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Pstemarie wrote...

Well said Webshaman. When it comes to EPIC Levels, only a few monsters really fit the bill: dragons, beholder-mages, liches, vampires, planars - you get the idea. However, even these need to be scaled up considerably just to challenge one Epic character. Imagine scaling them for a party of Epic characters!

I agree with most of what you said WebShaman too however your critique for "epic" monsters is not rightful imo.

Since there is as Pstemarie wrote only few really epic monsters if you start creating an epic module soon you use all of them. Custom content like CEP adds more but most of them is very specific. So you will have no choice than reuse some default creatures and scale them for epic levels. Which is what most module creators out there does.

Anyway, who say that gnolls mustnt be higher than their are per PnP? Really I dont agree with this, because if you dont change creature's power you end up with zombies, goblins, kobold, orcs, mumies, lizards, wolves, bears, ghosts. Pretty much generic module whose are thousands out there. I got enough of these modules.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Have to smile when I recall the Epic Kobolds of C:KR, and contend against the Destroyer Orcs of Aenea. I enjoy seeing super, unique, mutated versions of foes I may have become complacent over in the normal realms.

I detest PvP, and do not believe throwing down against other Players is a valid way of proving much of anything. I will take versatility over a heavy hitter most of the time; a major factor in my sense of enjoyment. While a Skill heavy Epic build may not be able to match up in arenas, they work wonders in environs, solo or with others.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 21 août 2011 - 05:17 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

WebShaman wrote...

First of all, there are NO Mods available that do Epic levels real justice.

None.

The reason being, it is just too dang hard to really do all the work!  First of all, you need that Epic story.

There might be another way to view epic levels (though I haven't seen modules that do this).  Consider level 21 characters as if they were level one and have them progress to level 40 as one would progress to level 20.  Spawns like spiders and rats would be made a lot tougher, and the differences between different playable characters would be more pronounced, but the focus of the module would be geared more to roleplay than to actual fights.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               There are a number of pw's available for dl on the vault.  If you want to have something to play with your friends, You could dl some of those and find one you like and Dm them for your buddies.
There really is no clear cut answer to what a pw is, best to just play a few and see.  Personally for fun factor sp modules are about a 6 while pw's are around an 8.  That's on average of course.  Though the gunslinger days of NwN are long gone, (i.e the wild west) you can still have fun playing in pw's.
I changed my portrait even though I have had that one for 10 years. Tthere are so many people with it,  I thought it would be a good idea to change. On the old boards I was the only one who used it.  So to avoid confusion, mine mostly I changed it.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ffbj, 21 août 2011 - 08:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Let us examine the "step outside of the box" sort of monster scaling that is being suggested here for Epic levels (psemarie got it right).

IF we are talking about Faerun here (re: Forgotten Realms), then scaling up "normal" creatures to Epic levels and remaining in Faerun (not going to some sort of other Plane, etc) then one stretches believability to the point of breaking!

Why haven't these super-powered versions taken over Faerun yet?  What is to stop them?  Epic levels are RARE!  Such beings have access to powers that defy belief!  

Perhaps ONE gnoll or kobold somehow reached Epic levels.  It would, of course, be a unique, special being.  But hordes of such?  Come on!  Not on Faerun.

That would be like having an Army of Tarrasque's bearing down on your City...who is going to stop them?  Who could stop them?  Even Elminster would quail at such an event!  (thankfully, the Tarrasque is a unique creature, for obvious reasons!).

Take a Dragon Flight, for instance.  ONE Epic party could destroy the entire flight!  Literally thousands of Dragons, and totally helpless against our mega-powered, level 40 party!  DR up the yazoo, protections against every imaginable elemental damage (real and imagined!), and Dev Crit hits being threatened at every swing, combined with ACs that make one unhittable on anything other than a natural 20...and even then, DR absorbs all the inflicted damage!  

Or take the invasion of The Horde...one Epic level party would swat it aside!!!!!  You would have chains of Great Cleave the likes of which one has never seen!

No, the idea of "scaling up" does not work with the Forgotten Realms setting (see NWN2 MotB for details).  One might be able to get away with such with a custom made setting, of course.  One is still going to have the headache of "balancing" all that Epic levels brings with the D20 system, however.

Ask any builder, Mod maker, etc, about creating for Epic levels.  You will notice that they mostly do not have any hair, anymore...

Pulled out, roots and all! '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               C: KR, Aielund, and Sands of Fate are all Epic adventures set outside of Faerun, I believe. So no setting manipulation has occured there, to my knowledge.

But even if it had, not all of Faerun might be charted and recorded; hence new official mods can emplace lost cities and such if desired. That is hardly new.

Not all the Epic feats are as imbalanced as Dev Crit; Harm, Heal, and Haste are pre-Epic spells in need of a refit, IMO. But these do not invalidate the remaining spells and Feats surrounding them.

And the usual dragons seen in D&D have always been weaker; hence the numerous articles and revisions offering True Dragons seen over the years. My very first PnP encounter was with a Black dragon, and a loss of hp and CHA were permanent; not the stuff of normalcy. But it was quite memorable which is what Epic attempts to be.

Scaling up works well for me, as it is also seen in the PC. It may require care to be utilized well, but that is always the case.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 22 août 2011 - 02:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               Thanks for the name drop, WebShaman. '> Yes, balancing for truly epic/legendary levels is a nightmare, requiring extensive calculations, spreadsheets, and immense amounts of playtest. And we're dropping paragon levels (61-80) this month, too, along with 32 new paragon spells. '> That'll be the last iteration, and the foes will be the campaign closers, the Elder Evils (development of which is likely to take a couple more years).

Interestingly, paragon levels are like epic levels in a number of respects, from a balancing perspective. In terms of game balance, the real purpose of epic levels was to draw classes closer together in their statistics. WIth only 20 die pips of granularity, abs, acs, saves, and so on begin to divirge too widely to be sustainable under the pre-epic progressions. We had a similar issue with legendary vs paragon levels - if we continued legendary ab progressions, ability point handouts, skills, and so on, dexers would wind up with untenable acs, mages with absurd skill point totals (eliminating any 'choice' of skill), and melee builds would have untenable abs versus support builds - to name just a few issues. We also decided to have paragon levels not add casterlevels, as it would've blown the spell resistance numbers of some of the multiverse's nastiest beasties all to kingdom come.

So, from a game design perspective, the purpose of epic levels isn't at all mysterious. It was to keep the various and sundry classes close enough together in the core statistics so as to prevent game breakage.

Of course, if we read the original post's question more broadly, as in 'why have them at all', instead of 'why do them as they were done', the answer is basically - to expand gameplay. Game design theory tells us that players like regular indicators of progress in the game, and that's one of the purposes that levels serve. They are a progress marker, and an indication/reward for time invested playing. If you want players to spend more time playing, you need more progress markers. The real trick, of course, is implementing additional levels without completely negating all the content of the previous levels (see, e.g., WoW) - one reason we've been working on paragon levels for over two years, now.

If you're at all curious about how paragon levels panned out, or the feats that are being implemented with them (you can't hand out 6 new feats without giving players something to spend them on), or the paragon spells, you can peep this spreadsheet:

Paragon Levels

Funky