Understanding the Mechanics of Shifter Form Attacks

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               I'm trying to play a Shifter for the first time and I'm trying to figure out how the forms compare to my regular non-shifted attacks.

I have a Ranger 6 / Druid 6 / Shifter 1 right now.  Without shifting, I have two attacks per round (+15/+10) with a sword (right now, a +2 bastard sword with +1d4 sonic damage).  Base STR unshifted is 13; with guantles of ogre power adding +2 STR and an ioun stone adding another +2 STR. 

Then if I shift to a red wyrmling, I am listed as having three attacks (two claws and a bite).  The damage is listed as 1d6+5/1d6+5/1d8+5.  (I'm showing a STR of 20, so I must be getting the full benefit of the STR adds from the guantless and ioun stone.)  My attack is listed as +16/+11.

In red wyrmling form, am I getting 2 attacks per round on each of the claw/claw/bite routines, for 6 total attacks per round?  Though it's hard to tell from the chat screen since the rounds aren't broken down, it certainly doesn't look like 6 attacks per round.  Maybe I'm not reading the chat information properly, but I can't tell what attacks I'm getting when shifted in red wyrmling form.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Mystery X, 17 août 2011 - 12:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               It is not 6 APR, sorry. Your BAB is determined by your unshifted form so if you have 2 APR there, you have 2 APR when shifted. The two claws and a bite, is simply the possible attacks, so 1st round will be claw, claw... 2nd round will be bite, claw... 3rd round will be claw, bite etc.

Any spell (or ioun stone) buffs you make prior to shifting will carry over, and item buffs will also be applied dependent on the shape, but don't expect stacking. Two items increasing str will not stack for example. A spell (or ioun stone) will stack with a single item tho. (glove slots never merge tho soooo )

Also, your wyrmling (because it doesn't use a weapon), will not gain the benefit of the sonic damage from your weapon, but shifting to drow or kobold (which does use a weapon) would mean that the sonic damage would stack onto the forms natural sword.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shifter

Also, in single player, using combat debugging can be helpful to understand what is going on,

Open the console with the top left key under ESC and type "DebugMode 1" (without the quotes)
Hit the same key and type "dm_enablecombatdebugging" (again no quotes)
And then fight something.

You get a lot more info about how the attacks and damage are being calculated. A good idea is to use a ring of regeneration to clearly denote when a new round begins.

To turn off , hit that key and type "DebugMode 0"

Never play your game with debug mode on. Only use it for learning. It will break most modules.

Have fun '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 17 août 2011 - 12:51 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               I am pretty sure your FE damage will carry over to all forms.  Monk is the most common tertiary class because of the effect of the sweet (-3AB instead of -5AB) attack progression for unarmed forms like the wyrmling.  Ranger should be interesting to try, though, so experiment with each shape to see which works best.

Learn what merges into each form and how the AC bonuses on your items all are transformed into deflection AC and therefore don't stack.  Check under each of the shape categories like Greater Wildshape I, etc. for all the specifics of merges and attributes (if you haven't already, that is).

Feat selection is challenging because it is better to settle on a specific few forms that can benefit from weapon focus feats if you decide to go that route.  Not that a ranger gets many bonus feats, but that just means you need to be picky.  Improved Critical seems to work for all forms and their weapons so something like Improved Crit: Unarmed will affect a large range of shapes.

A feat like Expertise (if you have at least INT13) is great for the wyrmling form when it uses the infirnite breath attack.

It's easy to get confused trying to follow the combat log but if you keep watching the progression drop, you will find out where the next round begins again.  If you have a permahaste item, there will always be another full AB attack after the normal progression ends and then the next round will start.  Also, make sure not to mix up the damage lines with the attack lines.  If you dual-wield your ranger it will get even harder to keep track of but practice and it will make perfect sense... eventually. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 17 août 2011 - 06:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               This is the second time I've tried to play a truly multi-class character, and the first time I've played something other than the official campaigns (I'm giving the Aielund Saga a try).

I wanted to do a Shifter because I thought it would be quite the unique experience, but I'm a bit disappointed to find out that those shifted forms have lesser capabilities than being non-shifted.form.  Though there may be some specialized situations in which my Shifter forms will be useful, it looks like I probably won't get ones I will use frequently until I get the humanoid forms at Shifter level 7 (overall level 19 with my current character).  That's a long time to wait to make use of the unique ability.

I had read the Wiki extensively, but I never completely understood what the claw/claw/bite routine meant.  I know one of the Shifter FAQs recommends not using a Shifter for a HotU, because the availability of uber-weapons almost guarantees that it will always be better to not be shifted.  I perhaps should have taken that as a warning.  But without understanding the claw/claw/bite thing fully and without knowing in advance what to expect from Aielund, it's hard to anticipate what the class will be like from reading the Wiki alone.

I know that Monk class has a lot of usefulness to the shifter forms, and it probably would have been a better choice than Ranger.  I went with Ranger because I thought the extra BAB would help at the lower levels, I like the Ranger skills, and I thought that I might get more use out of a couple of favored enemies than extra Fighter feats.  Plus, since the multi-class experience penalty applies to shifted forms, I'd have to keep that Monk and Druid levels even, causing me to sacrifice some BAB (Monk 5 / Druid 5 / Shifter 10 = BAB 13), or delay the Shifter levels until really late (Monk 8 / Druid 8 / Shifter 4 = BAB 15, but the adventuring career is 2/3 over or so and there are a lot of fun shapes I don't have yet).

The Expertise for a wyrmling is a good trick I hadn't thought of, though I need a few more levels before the damage the breath weapon does compares to the damage my weapon does in most cases.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

HipMaestro wrote...  Improved Critical seems to work for all forms and their weapons so something like Improved Crit: Unarmed will affect a large range of shapes.

Umm, I think it was only for weapons. (tho unarmed does work for dragon shape iirc).

HipMaestro wrote...
A feat like Expertise (if you have at least INT13) is great for the wyrmling form when it uses the infirnite breath attack.

Yip, very good tactic. Improved expertise even. Works well for gargoyle against mobs too. Sit there being unhurtable while your henchies pick them off.

Mystery X wrote...  Though there may be some specialized
situations in which my Shifter forms will be useful, it looks like I
probably won't get ones I will use frequently until I get the humanoid
forms at Shifter level 7 (overall level 19 with my current character).  

Well, apart from the two mentioned, Minotaur is very
useful for damage dealing. Basilisk, harpy and manticore can all be
useful for a few levels so long as you pick the right shape for your
enemies. Drider's usefulness lasts quite a long time. IME, it's good to
level up shifter as quickly as you can to get the most out of your
shapes.

Mystery X wrote...  
... without knowing in
advance what to expect from Aielund, it's hard to anticipate what the
class will be like from reading the Wiki alone. ...    I went with
Ranger because I thought the extra BAB would help at the lower
levels

Aielund is a nice Looooong module tho.. should be
lvl 37-40 when you finish. You'll be into epic shapes and plenty of time
to enjoy them. The epic versions are a serious step up. Extra BAB is definitly what a monk shifter lacks, so ranger might work out well.

Mystery X wrote...  
The
Expertise for a wyrmling is a good trick I hadn't thought of, though I
need a few more levels before the damage the breath weapon does compares
to the damage my weapon does in most cases.

Sometimes the trick with shifter is to focus on your immunities so you arent getting hurt, and get DPS from henchies or apply
tactics and patience. Set traps from Ranger could be very useful. Green
carpet of fire traps and red wyrnling shape, ... flame them, retreat to a
trap , flame them as the trap explodes, retreat to next trap etc.

Shifter can be a very fun tactical class imho, and every wildshape has at least one shape you can use in many situations.

Have fun '>. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...  Improved Critical seems to work for all forms and their weapons so something like Improved Crit: Unarmed will affect a large range of shapes.

Umm, I think it was only for weapons. (tho unarmed does work for dragon shape iirc).

Kail and I bounced this topic around in the new ECB just recently  in this thread where I learned more than I ever have about useful shifter feats. 

Zelle's Shifter Guide on the legacy site is (WAS!) one of my steadfast references for shifter facts and tips and now with it unaccessible, I am forced to test all the stuff myself that I forgot unless a guru is available.  Very tedious testing all the forms especially since the character screen lies... A LOT.  Shifter building is not for the faint-hearted but is hands-down my favorite class because of the innate challenge to recognize conditions quickly and shift to meet the demands.  Very kewl, IMO.

BAB is always a good thing for a shifter build, so the longer you can postpone the shifter levels pre-epic, the stronger all your melee form will be.  But there are no DWing shifter form advantages (Offhand doesn't merge) so feats related to that are wasted on shifter.

As for using them in high magic environments, I generally agree that the forms are far inferior in melee to many builds that capitalize on the uber equipment.  HotU, however, is not like typical high magic modules/servers because the hostiles have not been scaled to offset that advantage.  So all that is needed is to settle on a form, like Drider, for instance, then get the foci and Imp Crit for spear, buy all the upgrades for any spear you have and then when shifted, the Drider will be subject to the weapon feats chosen and also have all the Drider-specific benefits besides. (I prefer the Risen Lord scythe myself but you may not have enough levels to advance that far in HotU).

All unarmed forms are therefore at a decided disadvantage in melee because of the merging limitations.

Check the wiki to determine which form will become your staple, identify the weapon type and then choose feats that enhance that weapon. Obviously, without lots of levels of fighter it will deifficult to specialize in any more than one.  IIRC, the minotaur uses a different weapon for the improved form than for the standard one but I believe all the others armed forms keep the same weapon type for both versions.

edit: Oh, one other idiosycrasy that may not have occurred to you is that even though you may elect feats to enhance a specific weapon that gets used by a form, you can equip ANY weapon before the merge and will get exactly the same advantages from the weapon-specific feats since only the properties merge, not the weapon charactertics themselves.  So you wouldn't have to wander around carrying a spear (as in the above Drider example, for instance) unless you really want to.

Don't forget to buff your PC with at least Bull's Strength, Barkskin and Cat's Grace using your druid & ranger spells before shifting. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 18 août 2011 - 02:39 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...  Improved Critical seems to work for all forms and their weapons so something like Improved Crit: Unarmed will affect a large range of shapes.

Umm, I think it was only for weapons. (tho unarmed does work for dragon shape iirc).

Improved Critical: Unarmed and Overwhelming Critical: Unarmed (but not Devastating Critical: Unarmed) do apply to all unarmed shifted shapes.

Where OC is pointless to get without being able to get the bang out of DC, IC is instead a pretty good choice of a feat, especially considering Dragon Shape but not only.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               To the OP.

Getting monk as your tertiary would have helped better than ranger because of: classed tumble; extra Wis AC; extra AC from monk levels; extra speed from monk levels; deflect arrows; free cleave;  (improved) evasion; mind save bonus; possibly KD/IKD for free and last but not least extra APR in unarmed shapes (which offsets the lost BAB in unarmed shapes).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

To the OP.

Getting monk as your tertiary would have helped better than ranger because of: classed tumble; extra Wis AC; extra AC from monk levels; extra speed from monk levels; deflect arrows; free cleave;  (improved) evasion; mind save bonus; possibly KD/IKD for free and last but not least extra APR in unarmed shapes (which offsets the lost BAB in unarmed shapes).

Before I started Aielund, I played part of the OC with a monk/druid (to eventually be a Shifter).  I played through to monk 4 / druid 5, and the low attack bonuses early on in the game were excruciating.  I just couldn't hit anything in hand-to-hand (using just the best enchanted kama I could find; not dual-wielding because I didn't have Improved Two-Weapon yet and couldn't afford any attack penalty).

I can see how the monk/druid/shifter combination would pay off in the end, but it seems like it takes a while for it to pay off.  I didn't continue with it at that point in the OC because I thought, why play the OC for the fourth or fifth time, instead of a completely new module?

The ranger/druid combination worked very well early on, I didn't have a lot of trouble with Aielund Act I, going through to ranger 4 / druid 5.  (I goofed my build by forgetting to take Alertness, and had to wait another three levels to start taking Shifter levels.)  I had a lot more trouble in Act II, as the lower BAB and lack of physical stats (unmodified Str 13, Dex 10, Con 10) started taking their toll.

The wyrmling shapes at Ranger 6 / Druid 6 / Shifter 1 didn't help, the breath weapon wasn't big enough yet.  At Ranger Ranger 6 / Druid 6 / Shifter 3, I got minotaur shape, which does significantly improve attack.  However, the minotaur's low AC gets me shredded fast.  (I don't know how the AI is coded in Aielund, but my enemies are pretty good at figuring out who in my party has the low AC.)

I ended Act II at Ranger 6 / Druid 6 / Shifter 5.  It looks like with drider shape (including equipment and buffs), I'm mainly getting a +2 extra attack bonus and giving up -2 AC.  That may be worth the tradeoff, but I didn't get a chance to use it much, I finished Act II just as I got it.  We'll see how it goes in Act III.

Another unanticipated problem I've encountered with the Shifter is that I can't use healing kits while shifted.  That's a problem with Aielund, because there is no combat in which the party doesn't get beat up pretty bad, in many combats I need to use healing kits to survive the combat, and Heal potions are rare (and capped at 110 pts. anyway).  I'm going to have to figure out a way to deal with that as I try to use some shifter shapes in Act III.

Monk would have probably been the better choice than Ranger overall and maybe in another module I'll try it.  But I'm halfway through the Aielund Saga now, and as imperfect as my character is, I think I'll try to stick it out.  If drider doesn't work out as a shape, I'll be getting an opportunity to try the humanoid shapes in just two more levels.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               @ Kail and Hip. Ok *grin*, I guess I got confused. That's the problem with shifters, too much info. Looking at all my shifter builds they do have IC unarmed sooooo I guess I messed that one up. *laughing*.

OP: Don't forget, Aeilund was designed for 3 person MP. Completely possible to solo as many have done but, it's a world apart from the OC in terms of challenge. (And yes, shifter is not the easiest class to play.

It's all about thinking outside the box, cube, body  *grin*

Have fun '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 18 août 2011 - 10:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               Shifter builds are not for the newbies (even just newbies to shifter, not necessarily to NWN) and from what I can see you're diluting it too much and probably your playstyle is not compatible with that kind of builds too (but one can learn, assuming it doesn't go against one's taste). If you wanna be a shifter, then be one all the way. Try to get at least 8 shifter lvls by lvl 20 and space the monk ones on tumble dumps. Druid 8/Monk 4/Shifter 8 at lvl going for a final Druid 15/Monk 6/Shifter 19 or somesuch (also Druid 17/Monk 6/Shifter 17 for lvl 9 druid spells eg) acquiring all shapes is a typical shifter build with some casting and self buffing power. There's also the Druid 5/Monk 7/Shifter 28 build which pumps up as much as possible the different shapes' special powers save DCs or something like Monk 18/Druid 5/Shifter 17 for extra AC, speed, empty body, some SR and more stunning fists at the cost of casting power. Of course there's also the notorius Zelle's Druid 22/Shifter 17/Monk 1 Nature's Faces, but I'm one that likes to get my monk AC early on.

That said abut generic shifters build, there are builds with shifter levels focusing on specific shapes, like kobold commando, rakshasa, risen lord.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

It's all about thinking outside the box, cube, body  *grin*

 

Well put!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               Thinking about it, if I want to try Shifter again in another module, I may just go Druid / Shifter without a third class.  For one thing, working in the third class is tricky since a Shifter suffers the multi-class xp penalty while shifted.  For another thing, some of those early shapes (druid wildshape, shifter greater wildshapes) probably have a lot more of an impact early in the game than later in the game.

If I went Druid for 5 levels then Shifter for the next 7, I would be using the druid wildshape forms at 5th level, the wyrmlings at 6th level, harpy/gargoyle/minotaur at 8th level, drider and others at 10th level.

I'd go back to Druid for levels 13-19, meaning I'd be counting on the drow/kobold/lizardman forms through 21st level, picking up some buffs like Stoneskin, Death Ward, and Greater Stoneskin along the way.  Depending on how I stat myself initially, I'll be picking up epic shapes in the mid-20s (skipping undead because they don't appeal to me, but picking up outsider and construct, and of course eventually dragon).

Though the Monk abilities may prove to be more powerful than the extra Druid spells at the higher levels, sticking with just Druid / Shifter may give me the opportunity to actually use the shapes a lot earlier, and be relevant throughout my adventuring career rather than waiting for the different class abilities to finally come together.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Shifter builds are not for the newbies (even just newbies to shifter, not necessarily to NWN) and from what I can see you're diluting it too much and probably your playstyle is not compatible with that kind of builds too (but one can learn, assuming it doesn't go against one's taste). If you wanna be a shifter, then be one all the way. Try to get at least 8 shifter lvls by lvl 20 and space the monk ones on tumble dumps. Druid 8/Monk 4/Shifter 8 at lvl going for a final Druid 15/Monk 6/Shifter 19 or somesuch (also Druid 17/Monk 6/Shifter 17 for lvl 9 druid spells eg) acquiring all shapes is a typical shifter build with some casting and self buffing power. There's also the Druid 5/Monk 7/Shifter 28 build which pumps up as much as possible the different shapes' special powers save DCs or something like Monk 18/Druid 5/Shifter 17 for extra AC, speed, empty body, some SR and more stunning fists at the cost of casting power. Of course there's also the notorius Zelle's Druid 22/Shifter 17/Monk 1 Nature's Faces, but I'm one that likes to get my monk AC early on.

Wouldn't I be running afoul of the multi-class xp penalty in shifted form if I don't keep the Monk/Druid classes even?  That's what I read in the wiki (which I assume is current through 1.69).  A lot of modules- Aielund being one- use CEP- does CEP change the penalty?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               Personally, I think caring about XP penalty is a minor point in any build. Play the character, not the numbers, no? We want to rp a character and we want that character to be as strong as possible (because the character we rp would like to be as powerful as possible in most cases... certainly very few are looking to make themselves ineffective) ....  and between those two ideals there are conflicts and compromises.

but Shifter only gets the XP penalty when shifted to drow anyway, no?

edit: considering the only stats worth increasing are wis, int or cha, unless you focus to a aprticular shape or want certain feats (which is very effective btw) , then while 1 monk costs -1ab, and shifter ab is sort of low, the HUge increase to ac by  increasing wisdom makes it much more survivable.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 18 août 2011 - 11:09 .