Weakest and Most Loathed Prestige class.

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MrZork wrote...

Note that the DC 127 bug for PDK fear is a broader bug that affects HS sleep and probably BG contagion, too.

Slightly off,  HS sleep is limited to creatures of low HD/character level.  BG contagion uses the disease DC rather than its own.  What would benefit is SD shadow daze, but SD requires 13 Dex, so a -4 Dex or immobilization + dex buff needs to come from somewhere to pull it off.   With respect to these, the PDK exploit is a lot more accessible.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Yet Imbue arrow is affected as well.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Regarding red dragon disciples: No offense, folks, but some of this comes across as disagreeing in order to disagree. In case it has slipped by, there is no argument going on here that RRDs aren't overpowered, at least not with me. I never said RDDs aren't powerful - in fact, I very clearly said that they were. I merely commented that RDDs have to fill the third class slot with a class that isn't an especially good compliment to warrior builds in order to get the feats available to RDDs. And, I didn't dispute those who argue RDDs are overpowered - people have made their opinions clear and I'm fine with it. Anyone acting as though I wrote something different... Well, have fun, but I don't see where people get any satisfaction from "winning" an argument that they weren't actually having.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

just few facts to consider about the evasion issue (aka I agree with Lowlander)

- evasion should not work in medium/heavy armor per rules

Per PnP rules. NWN is not PnP and it has been officialy approved by WotC as is. Hence Evasion in NWN should work with all armors.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

MrZork wrote...

Regarding red dragon disciples: No offense, folks, but some of this comes across as disagreeing in order to disagree. In case it has slipped by, there is no argument going on here that RRDs aren't overpowered, at least not with me. I never said RDDs aren't powerful - in fact, I very clearly said that they were. I merely commented that RDDs have to fill the third class slot with a class that isn't an especially good compliment to warrior builds in order to get the feats available to RDDs..

Right we were arguing about what you saw as reasonable tradeoffs and I didnt'.

You joined in to comment on the often stated over powered nature of RDD by commenting on what a huge deal it was  losing that third class and how significant the tradeoffs were compared to some of the marginal beneifts.

So it certainly appeared that you were arguing that it wasn't overpowered as you gave up so much to get it.

I was arguing the opposite.  That tradeoffs are very minimal for an outsized reward. Your third class is stuck as Bard/Sorc. Bard is a VERY complementary class to fighter.  You might have some shred of an argument if you were forced to take Sorc/Wiz, but with Bard, not at all.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               the palemaster class, in particular the summons that they can spawn are week compared to the standard gear, and class/monster abilities that the summons battle. Maybe it is just me, but I have never found that the summons are as effectual as the elementals of summon 8,9,and 10. The questionable spells per level as well tends to make the class weeker. The touch attacks are also strength based, unless of course one adds the wf feat. Don't get me wrong, I love the class, but it can be a problem to be effectual in MP, when the weeknesses are not adjusted by the builders. Course it could well be my lack of play ability.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I disagree that the Palemaster class summons are weak - obviously the Demilich has spells (all levels!).  That makes it very, very, VERY powerful IMHO.

The real issue is that one cannot "control" it, as one can one own's character.  If one could...

It would be a real powerhouse!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Per PnP rules. NWN is not PnP and
it has been officialy approved by WotC as is. Hence Evasion in NWN
should work with all armors.

Yes its per PnP rules and NWN is based on PnP rules of 3.0. Anyway WotC are only interested about money, and Bioware left this game (or they have been broken up or what? dont matter). I think that now what should be and shouldnt be belong to community. But right, community isnt me, neither you.

WebShaman wrote...

I disagree that the Palemaster class
summons are weak - obviously the Demilich has spells (all levels!).  
That makes it very, very, VERY powerful IMHO.

The real issue is
that one cannot "control" it, as one can one own's character.  If one
could...

It would be a real powerhouse!

Minimum character level for demilich is around 34 where is demilich totally ridiculous. If it would be summon from summon greater undead then ok, but need 30lvl of pale master class just to summon this thats totally silly. Even if you could controll him like familiar the tradeoff are extremely high. PM summons are weak but PM strenght is in immunities/epic spells.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 11 août 2011 - 10:30 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Per PnP rules. NWN is not PnP and
it has been officialy approved by WotC as is. Hence Evasion in NWN
should work with all armors.

Yes its per PnP rules and NWN is based on PnP rules of 3.0.

Bolding mine. Based on, aye. That means it's not going to be the same and unless one can prove otherwise a game feature is to be considered wad. Also, one is evidently free to try to reproduce as faithfully as possible the PnP ruleset, but it is nothing special compared to any other set of specific rules one can choose to implement. I don't see the need to keep on bringing PnP rules up when NWN is no PnP; it is only natural that it works on its own rules which may be radically different from PnP ones given the radical difference of the two games.

Anyway WotC are only interested about money, and Bioware left this game (or they have been broken up or what? dont matter).

That WotC (and Atari) screwed things up is something I can potentially agree with. But it's really another subject, ain't it?

I think that now what should be and shouldnt be belong to community. But right, community isnt me, neither you.

But it's also you and me. There's a place for each of us, but I guess we need to estabilish a common reference frame for this discussion. I'd say that vanilla NWN would be a good start, and there evasion in heavy armor is wad.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I can't believe someone is saying that the Demilich is weak.

How about Mummy Dust, or Dragon Warrior Epic spell summons?  Hmmm?

I consider the Demilich to be among one of the most powerful of all the summons.

And this is definitely environmental dependent, of course.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               All mod dependant of course, but in my experiences, on servers without Tony Ks AI, that Demi-lich gets spanked by other characters, and even other summons. Mummy dust, is not a Palemaster summon, and even it has melee problems when compaired to the elementals of summon 8-10. if we are talking PVP, the palemaster is week compaired to the core classes. That weekness is more evident the higher the magic rating for the gear gets. I tend to play low magic, and lower level worlds, and usualy the PM does rather well, its when I try and play the high magic ones that I become disappointed with the class. Course its true of all of NWN, the environment dictates the playability of the classes.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I can't believe someone is saying that the Demilich is weak.

How about Mummy Dust, or Dragon Warrior Epic spell summons?  Hmmm?

I consider the Demilich to be among one of the most powerful of all the summons.

And this is definitely environmental dependent, of course.

Its not. I have not seen module where would be demilich at lvl 34 viable. Yes there are definitely always situations/specific monsters where it is but as I have pointed already its one time per day summon, you need 30lvl of PM to get it which makes your character useless.

At lvl 34 monsters have already more than 25saves so they would have to roll 1 on demilich spells and they mostly have magic/divine/positive/negative damage. But even if not demilich would cast all spells and then it would be just weaker black blade of disaster only for one day. Even if it would be the most powerfull summon in game due to requirements its just useless.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 12 août 2011 - 02:51 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

SHOVA wrote...
...if we are talking PVP, the palemaster is week compaired to the core classes. That weekness is more evident the higher the magic rating for the gear gets. I tend to play low magic, and lower level worlds, and usualy the PM does rather well, its when I try and play the high magic ones that I become disappointed with the class. Course its true of all of NWN, the environment dictates the playability of the classes.

Crit immunity, paralyzation/stun/hold immunity and +6 AC in 10 lvls make it not weak at all also for PvP purpouses. Or are you talking of PM 30 builds here?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               I don't deny the PMs immunities, those make it able to last in a PVP fight, but I question its damage, taking PM limits the spells that can be cast, when compared to a non multi-class caster of the same level. The touch attacks are almost useless, unless you happen to luck out on the roll, when the targets AC, is probably higher than the BAB. Add in the items that grant immunity to death attack, (vanilla gear) and any builder (cheese) gear, and its a long shot it will be effective. ((( first I usualy roll ones, its the biggest reason I suck at PVP. second I used the "cheese" word only because I do not like to add immunity items into my mods, not even the vanilla gear ones from the OC. What others do is up to them, and I accept that when I log into their worlds. )) A PM is great in a 20 level max mod, with low end magic items. PM is week in 40 level, high end magic gear with immunities. I can't change my viewpoint on that, as even if Web showed me how to play a PM the most effective way possible, I would still roll a 1 when it maters most.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

SHOVA wrote...

I don't deny the PMs immunities, those make it able to last in a PVP fight, but I question its damage, taking PM limits the spells that can be cast, when compared to a non multi-class caster of the same level. The touch attacks are almost useless, unless you happen to luck out on the roll, when the targets AC, is probably higher than the BAB. Add in the items that grant immunity to death attack, (vanilla gear) and any builder (cheese) gear, and its a long shot it will be effective. ((( first I usualy roll ones, its the biggest reason I suck at PVP. second I used the "cheese" word only because I do not like to add immunity items into my mods, not even the vanilla gear ones from the OC. What others do is up to them, and I accept that when I log into their worlds. )) A PM is great in a 20 level max mod, with low end magic items. PM is week in 40 level, high end magic gear with immunities. I can't change my viewpoint on that, as even if Web showed me how to play a PM the most effective way possible, I would still roll a 1 when it maters most.

Until you'll limit yourself to think that PM is a PrC for casters you'll evidently won't see its benefits. And besides, there are caster builds making good use of PM, of course PM 10. Also, one can "fix" the PM class so that it grants caster levels, which i sa significant improvent on the class (and a due one, if you ask me).

High magic and low magic are not good environments where to judge builds by the way. The game is better suited to mid magic environments. PM as a PrC works pretty well in lvl 40 environments, although it is evidently made redundant if crit immunity is easily acquired through gear; but then again a lot of class features are made redundant in high magic environments granting all sort of stuff on gear so what's the point to use high magic to say PM is a weak PrC? Clerics too become weak in high magic, ah!