Weakest and Most Loathed Prestige class.

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               Someone decided to pick on the base classes but exclude the Prestige classes, so here is my kick at them. I also added Loathing in because you can still dislike something because despite it being strong (or because of it).

Plus it ties my choices together with the word Dragon:

Purple Dragon Knight:   It may have taken me some time to appreciate some use for the Harper Scout, but these guys seem seriously pointless. Likely the least used class in the history of NWN and with good reason.

Red Dragon Discible:  I loathe this class. It is a massive over the top cheese fest. +8 Str ,+2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Chr, +4 AC, and immunities to Fire,Paralysis,sleep and breath weapon... Oh and I hate the stupid wings.  What was BW thinking adding this one.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               PDK is total fail, second one is Harper scout then Assassin I guess (bioware implementatio only).

Also Shadow Dancer if the HIPS is removed (or PvM server where all monsters have True Seeing) is useless class.

As for RDD, I think they added it as the Dragon Disciple is in main DnD rules, which isnt the case of second overpowered class Pale Master. When bioware deciced in past that immunity to critical = immunity to sneak this class lost his last weakness.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Failed.Bard]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

PDK is total fail, second one is Harper scout then Assassin I guess (bioware implementatio only).

Also Shadow Dancer if the HIPS is removed (or PvM server where all monsters have True Seeing) is useless class.

As for RDD, I think they added it as the Dragon Disciple is in main DnD rules, which isnt the case of second overpowered class Pale Master. When bioware deciced in past that immunity to critical = immunity to sneak this class lost his last weakness.

  No, they got that one right, actually.  Critical hit immunity is also immunity to sneak attacks, even in PnP.  My only problem with PM in vanilla is their absolute butchering on the prerequisites, both in the spell casting level needed being wrong, and them not needing 8 cross-class ranks in Knowledge: Religion, which makes it 13th level before a pure class arcanist can take it in PnP.

  I don't really have a PrC I loathe as far as the class itself in game, but there are implimentations of them that I do, especially considering how easy it would have been to do it right.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Xardex]

               I agree with everything ShaDoOoW said and add Arcane Archer to the list of overpowered classes.

Everything I can bear but builds that include / SD 1.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               AA in NWN does get the best AB, but usually isn't overpowered because they do so little damage unless given atypical magic bow/arrows. When playing them I have found that DR often reduces them to annoying... I often pull a two handed weapon to cut through DR.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               I dislike PrC's and kits as a rule; would have preferred to have additional Feats and abilities with prereqs.

Have not yet played all the PrC's. Of the ones I have tried, I would say Harper Scout was the most  flawed in pre-Epic play; a bit more improved in Epic when exchanging some choices for other Feats.

And I stink at playing Shifters, but I like the concept; simply wish there were more forms and archer choices.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               All prestige classes have their high points.
PDK- 127DC fear spell that goes through mantles (must have negative strength modifier)
HS- 2 Great Dex feats + stacking cat's grace and eagle's splendor
SD (6-8)- Allows a shadow fiend summon which if invisible can kill high level monsters without them noticing or fighting back.
Assassin- Undispellable improved invisibility.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               except those things are rather bugs or environment specifics
127dc is bug and fixed in my patch/some more experienced servers already and even if not its only 1x per day and who doesnt have immunity?
HS feats stacking could be also point as bug, but even if not, I havent seen any build where harper would be better than rogue/anything, with HS you are missing UMD and many servers out there let you cap +12ability bonus very easily (just spell gives you +5...)
shadow should appear after attack (bug in AI script) and you also presume that those high lvl monsters wont have true seeing which is especially for high lvl monsters very common boost
assassin ii can be still removed by purge/custom dispell but even if not this feature is not useable in pvm neither in high magic modules where you can craft ii wand, in pvp it might be useable but even at BoW where they have it even unpurgeable and with better conceal nobody builds with assassins as they just sucks.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 06 août 2011 - 06:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

HS feats stacking could be also point as bug, but even if not, I havent seen any build where harper would be better than rogue/anything, with HS you are missing UMD and many servers out there let you cap +12ability bonus very easily (just spell gives you +5...)

There are builds with both rogue and HS.  I made a rogue 21/HS 5/DwD 14 with epic dodge and SCV and reduction 9/-, and immunity to flanking.  But still, your comments in general point to a high magic environment.  Not all servers will aspire to at least the +5 by level 40 model.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Note that the DC 127 bug for PDK fear is a broader bug that affects HS sleep and probably BG contagion, too.

I have never found much use for PDKs. They actually get some decent buffing feats, particularly for party play, but the duration limitations (since PDK can only rise to level five) detract from their usefulness. Maybe they might be a fun role-play class to spice up a horse-riding character for the 4 alignments that can take the class and who have the skill points to blow. Meh.

I will say something in regards to the oft-remarked-upon overpowered nature of RDDs. Yes, the class can be used to great advantage and RDDs get lots of feats that there would be no other way to get. But, the ability increases (which are quite nice) are of primary benefit to warrior types, but 1) to get them one has to take not just the RDD class, but either sorcerer or bard, neither of which is a strong compliment to most warrior builds (yeah, yeah, bards get tumble and UMD - fine). So, to get RDD, a base-class warrior is giving up any other third class, which is a big deal, and a prestige-class warrior is signing on for at least 5 levels of sorcerer or bard (neither of which gets any great defensive feats with those levels and both requiring starting CHA of 11+, which is a 5 ability point expense to dwarf and half-orc toons). And, 2) Though there are lots of ability increases, many of them are not ones that the character would likely choose to take. That is, yes a warrior type will benefit a lot from the STR increase and somewhat from the CON, but he wouldn't likely be taking CHA, WIS, or INT if he had his druthers.

So, I am not saying it isn't a strong PrC, because it is. I'm just saying that some of the benefits are marginal and the trade-offs are significant.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 06 août 2011 - 09:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Failed.Bard]

               Actually, RDD just needs one bard or sorc level, and a 6 charisma half-orc is still quite capable of taking that level in NWN.  The only reason you see 28/2/10 splits is so they can get the level 37 tumble dump in, and epic levels progress in AB the same regardless of class taken, so there is no downside to it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

MrZork wrote...

I will say something in regards to the oft-remarked-upon overpowered nature of RDDs. Yes, the class can be used to great advantage and RDDs get lots of feats that there would be no other way to get. But, the ability increases (which are quite nice) are of primary benefit to warrior types, but 1) to get them one has to take not just the RDD class, but either sorcerer or bard, neither of which is a strong compliment to most warrior builds (yeah, yeah, bards get tumble and UMD - fine). So, to get RDD, a base-class warrior is giving up any other third class, which is a big deal,

You only need look at a powergamer server to see that those are minor inconvience compared to Free +8 on strength (+ other abilities + immunities + dragon armor). Download Arena of Champions module. The include a bunch of power builds in their documents. Half of them are RDDs.

You don't sacrifice much compared to any other fighting build to take.

20 Fighter levels pre epic for full BAB.
(10 mixed levels of Bard( to qualify for RDD, get Tumble/Spellcraft/Taunt dumps/weak bard song) Fighter for EWS)
10 levels of RDD

You need not waste a single point in Charisma and you can even drop 2 more points of Con for strength as you get those back from RDD.

In the end you get fighters that have 40+ natural Strength. Full Tumble + Dragon Armor for among the best Armor class of any strength fighter. You also get full spellcraft for +8 on spell saves,  You also get full Taunt to mess with enemy AC. And a weak bard song for another +2 attack...

RDD is ridiculously overpowered powergamers dream. 
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 06 août 2011 - 10:22 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

Failed.Bard wrote...

Actually, RDD just needs one bard or sorc level, and a 6 charisma half-orc is still quite capable of taking that level in NWN.

So, we agree. As I said, a base-class warrior is giving up any other third class and a prestige-class warrior is taking at least 5 levels of bard or sorcerer and needs 11+ CHA.


Lowlander, whether those trade-offs are minor or not, they are significant, which is all I said. Not having access to a third class (e.g. for evasion and uncanny dodge) is significant for many builds. Obviously, since strength builds are the commonest route for warriors, RDDs will still be popular. I haven't seen enough PvP to speak definitively, but I suspect most RDD melee monsters will still go down to IGMS-spamming mages, kiting archers, various shifter builds, etc.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 06 août 2011 - 10:49 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

MrZork wrote...
Lowlander, whether those trade-offs are minor or not, they are significant, which is all I said. Not having access to a third class (e.g. for evasion and uncanny dodge) is significant for many builds. Obviously, since strength builds are the commonest route for warriors, RDDs will still be popular. I haven't seen enough PvP to speak definitively, but I suspect most RDD melee monsters will still go down to IGMS-spamming mages, kiting archers, various shifter builds, etc.

No one can be every class simultaneously. The loss of uncanny dodge is meaningless to a Plate Armored stength fighter.  Evasion is nice but so what.

+8 Str, +2 con, +2 int, +2 chr. +4 AC from dragon armor.
Immunity to Fire, sleep, paralysis.

But oh no, I can't take an evasion class...  Seriously?

It is a ridiculous class banned on many servers, and making up half the characters on the ones where it isn't.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               just few facts to consider about the evasion issue (aka I agree with Lowlander)

- evasion should not work in medium/heavy armor per rules
- there is ring of improved evasion in default NWN palette and some modules can have custom items with this feat
- more than half of the evasion-able spells are fire based, in fact default NWN creatures dont cast any other element
- RDD builds are not the only one who cannot get evasion

But really I almost havent seen situation where the evasion would be sooo needed. Especially at higher lvl servers where characters have 500+hitpoints and DC stays low cos they cannot be get higher without custom content most builders dont know how to use. If we would talk about low levels there would be even more characters without evasion at all especially yours rangers .
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 07 août 2011 - 01:12 .