Author Topic: Weakest Non Prestige class?  (Read 3388 times)

Legacy_Elhanan

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2011, 07:40:50 am »


               As far as I am aware, Parry is limited to three Parry attempts per rnd; get confirmation.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2011, 02:41:38 pm »


               Elhanan is right - max of 3 (THREE) parries per round, one per flurry (as Shia pointed out), REGARDLESS of the amount of enemies.

See the NWN Wiki - http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Parry

Though it does not specifically state how it works against multiple enemies, it does state how the mechanics work.  And they do not change for multiple enemies.  Meaning Parry becomes less and less effective against more and more opponents.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Wids

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2011, 09:43:24 am »


               

In many books, not being able to slap just 6 lvls of a class to get the better features is a plus; not a negative. And while a pre-Epic 20th lvl Ftr has a grunch of Feats, both the Ftr and Rgr have access to the same AB feats, while the FE bonuses grant +5 dmg; the Ftr only +4 dmg.

...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything.  If your Ranger picks Human, Aberration, Undead, Giant and Dragon for his FE races, he doesn't get anything out of FE everytime he bumps into a golem or a pack of manticores.

And Fighters can take WS long, long before Rangers can build their FE bonuses up to +5, which gives Fighters a survivability edge (meaning fewer respawns, less lost XP and faster Level progression) in the lower Levels.

I never had any problem with playing Fighters, except on pseudo-low magic servers like Prisoners of the Mist (where "low magic" means "no magic items above a +2, while spellcasters still get all their spells").  If you're on a server where your Fighter can obtain any number of respectable magic items (including armor, rings or amulets with Haste, Spell Resistance and True Seeing), then all of the bonus Feats can make a difference against a variety of enemies.  It's always hilarious to watch a Wizard player, all smug behind his Greater Stoneskin and Displacement and Mage Armor and yadda yadda, go on a "WTF?" rant after a sufficiently girded Fighter with a high-damage melee weapon, Improved Critical and so on gets in the Wizard's face and shows him how quickly Greater Stoneskin goes down with someone who does triple-digit melee damage each round wailing on it.  'Posted

Fighters have a bad rep for some reason, but so do Bards.  Hell, there are people out there who will swear on their own Mama's grave that Clerics and Monks are weak.  No bad rep is really 100% deserved; a lot of it's probably from the mouths of haters who played the class a few times, sucked horribly at it and decided that the fault lay with the class, not with the player's skill (or lack of skill) at playing that class.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Wids, 16 septembre 2011 - 08:49 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2011, 01:58:30 pm »


               

...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything


EXCEPT that WS only works on a specific Weapon type.  What if the enemies encountered are immune/have resistence to that type of damage?  Up the Creek without a Paddle, hmmm?  How about Ranged Weapons?  Unless one has taken it for Ranged...then what about Melee?

The Ranger FE is limited as well, but not to Weapon (damage type) or Ranged vs Melee.  Meaning that the Ranger can do equally well against an FE with Melee and/or Ranged.  Which can really have an advantage if the foe in question is very powerful - the Ranger can switch to Ranged and Kite it.

Don't go praising something in a comparison, without also considering the negatives.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2011, 02:54:48 pm »


               

WebShaman wrote...

...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything


EXCEPT that WS only works on a specific Weapon type.  What if the enemies encountered are immune/have resistence to that type of damage?  Up the Creek without a Paddle, hmmm?  How about Ranged Weapons?  Unless one has taken it for Ranged...then what about Melee?

Good point, havent thought of that as Im not used to using anything else than im focused on but it can be certainly advantaging in low level environment (which I dont play at all).

EDIT: but on the other hand, a fighter of same level than ranger have 1+level/2 more feats. You can use this feats for whatever you like but there is also possibility of using them for weapon specialization for various weapon types, so you could take a great sword as primary weapon, then heavy xbow for ranged issues and then warhammer for undead types. You can specialize into (lvl-4)/2 weapons if you would want to. Becoming a WM makes it a bit difficult of course but ranger wm is not even possible at low levels.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:39 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2011, 06:45:00 pm »


               Just mc ranger with ftr and you get both FE (and eventually BoE) and WS/EWS. Bard or rogue to round it off. Why getting stuck on single classes?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Johnnydigs

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« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2011, 12:17:23 am »


               Weakest class is definitely not bard, if you think so you've probably been playing them like casters or something. If you play it like a strength based fighter with heavy armor your bard will be a better fighter than the fighter. Bard Song+Curse Song+Greater Magic Weapon+Keen+War Cry+Taunt all make it easy to hit your enemies and deal good damage. Bard Song+Improved Invisibility/Concealment(50% miss chance)+Access to Tumble make a bard extremely hard to hit.

Weakest class is also not Ranger. They get two weapon fighting for free, sweet damage bonuses against favored enemies, good amount of skill points, and spells that improve their hide/move silently. Rangers should not be compared to fighters, they should be compared to rogues and monks. Out of those sneaker classes ranger is the one with the highest move silently/hide because of their spells and better at spotting other sneakers because of the bonuses to move listen/spot against favored enemies. Combine all three, ranger/rogue/monk and you get the best sneaker in the game. (If you don't know why sneaking is good, it's because if you attack someone from move silently+ they can't see you, they become flat footed and it's almost impossible for them to not get hit)

Rogue's sneak attack is always nice, and keeps getting better and better as they class progresses. Plus they're the best for skill points, playing with traps, unlocking stuff, and pick pocketing.
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Cleric, Monk, Sorceror, Wizard, Druid, Paladin I don't think I have to explain.

Fighter is nothing but feats. And only some feats are good. There's really no point in playing a pure fighter for too long but they're really great for multi classing. Everyone needs feats.

That leaves Barbarian and even though it's one of my favorite classes, it is definitely the worst out of all these. All you get is rage and hit points. Rage eventually becomes obsolete as there is a cap to strength and constitution. The damage reduction is laughable so eventually your left with only hit points. That's really lousy. The only time a barbarian might be any good is in a very low magic world where you can't cap your strength and constitution, but then again if you're playing low magic you might as well be a cleric/bard/paladin and not have to deal with the problem of a low magic world . . .
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Johnnydigs, 16 septembre 2011 - 11:19 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_WebShaman

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2011, 05:41:06 am »


               Yup, as I stated, Barb is the weakest.
               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2011, 05:42:39 am »


               The Answer: in short...

That completely depends upon which environment you are playing from!

If we are talking the OC (Original Campaign) then I would say none really, all classes are balanced, with the exception of mages & cleric, which are grossly uber compared to melee classes.

To me Druids are probably, by far the weakest caster class (not counting bard/paladin/rangers).
Bards, if you build them correctly (multi-classing) are not weak at all, however...
Bards, without multi-classing are very weak & more or less designed for RP / Socializing, lol.

Any build can be weak, though if we are talking about just the base class, bard is pretty weak.

Pure rogues are pretty weak too, but it really depends upon the environment, again in the OC, rogue isn't weak, it's balanced.

Race also effects a Character, so many factors effect a character outside of class, like the gear you have on!

Pinning the tail on the donkey, in this case classes, is rather pointless.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _Guile, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:45 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Wids

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2011, 06:49:41 am »


               

WebShaman wrote...






...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything

EXCEPT that WS only works on a specific Weapon type. What if the enemies encountered are immune/have resistence to that type of damage? Up the Creek without a Paddle, hmmm? How about Ranged Weapons? Unless one has taken it for Ranged...then what about Melee?

I can do without the snarky tone, thanks. 'Posted

But how often does that problem really come up?  If a Fighter specializes in battle axes, for example, he's going to wield a battle axe as often as possible, just to milk that Specialization for all it's worth; if the weapon that prompted him to take the Feat is exceptionally powerful, or if the weapon is part of the Fighter's theme as a character (since if you name your Fighter "Gorrgod Axe-Singer," he's probably not into swords), that goes up from a likelihood to a certainty.  And sure, he's going to have trouble with enemies that resist Slashing damage (ie. skeletons) or punish Slashing damage in other ways (ie. ochre jellies).  But unless you're playing on a server which is completely loaded with skeletons, ochre jellies, bone golems and various other Slashing-resistant or Slashing-immune monsters, that battle axe specialization is not going to be a problem very often; the creatures which don't have any kind of resistance or immunity to Slashing are typically the vast majority.  Same goes for Piercing and Bludgeoning.

On the other hand, there 25 races of creatures, of which 24 races are possible choices for Favored Enemy (with Oozes being the exception here).  So unless you're on a server which is heavily loaded with a certain race (ie. Undead on the Prisoners of the Mist server or the various Zombie Survival servers), and your Ranger has chosen that race for one of his one-to-five Favored Enemies, then most of the time he'll be "up the creek without a paddle," to use your own words.

To boil it down a bit, your typical server is like a big tub full of, let's say, 500 oranges and 20 apples.  With Weapon Specialization, that server is telling the Fighter, "See those apples?  Those are the only fruits in that tub which are going to give you trouble.  Enjoy chopping up all those oranges."  But with Favored Enemy, that server is telling the Ranger, "See those apples?  Those are the only fruits that you're going to completely chop the living bajeezus out of.  With all those oranges, you're just going to have to pay full price."  Then your Ranger hits Level 5 (or 10, or 15, or 20) and takes another Favored Enemy, and some lanky guy in a janitor suit comes in, takes 20 oranges out of the tub and dumps 20 more apples into the tub.  But most of the tub is still oranges, which your Ranger's not particularly good at chopping up.

Hey, I can see that you're a big fan of Rangers.  I don't exactly think poorly of Rangers myself; my first character on that PotM server was a Ranger (with Favored Enemies: Undead, Shapechanger and Animal, of course).  When Favored Enemy works, it's great, especially if you have a "Taunter" build or your favored enemy race has stealthers on that server.  But it usually doesn't apply to most of the monsters you run into in your day-to-day ambling around between dungeons...not unless you know exactly where your favored enemies spawn on the server and spend a lot of time hanging out in those places, maybe.

I've gotten a lot more mileage out of Weapon Specialization, like I did when I played a battle-axe-specialist Fighter on PotM.  After ten or twenty chops, those extra 2 points of Damage really add up.  And then on top of that, you add in the extra-extra 2, 4 or even 6 Damage from each Critical Hit, depending on your weapon's critical multiplier....

Ow.

But hey, at least Rangers get to summon a critter to help them dish out more damage, so take comfort in that.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Wids, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:52 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Weakest Non Prestige class?
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2011, 11:43:55 am »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Just mc ranger with ftr and you get both FE (and eventually BoE) and WS/EWS. Bard or rogue to round it off. Why getting stuck on single classes?

invalid point, same as ranger can become fighter in order to take WS/EWS the fighter can become ranger to get FE.

Also any other class can become fighter to take WS/EWS. And all of them get the same bonus from it.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2011, 12:25:44 pm »


               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Just mc ranger with ftr and you get both FE (and eventually BoE) and WS/EWS. Bard or rogue to round it off. Why getting stuck on single classes?

invalid point, same as ranger can become fighter in order to take WS/EWS the fighter can become ranger to get FE.

Also any other class can become fighter to take WS/EWS. And all of them get the same bonus from it.

Learn to read and understand what's written before talking. You know what they say, better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2011, 02:36:45 pm »


               

Wids wrote...

WebShaman wrote...






...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything

EXCEPT that WS only works on a specific Weapon type. What if the enemies encountered are immune/have resistence to that type of damage? Up the Creek without a Paddle, hmmm? How about Ranged Weapons? Unless one has taken it for Ranged...then what about Melee?

I can do without the snarky tone, thanks. 'Posted

But how often does that problem really come up?  If a Fighter specializes in battle axes, for example, he's going to wield a battle axe as often as possible, just to milk that Specialization for all it's worth; if the weapon that prompted him to take the Feat is exceptionally powerful, or if the weapon is part of the Fighter's theme as a character (since if you name your Fighter "Gorrgod Axe-Singer," he's probably not into swords), that goes up from a likelihood to a certainty.  And sure, he's going to have trouble with enemies that resist Slashing damage (ie. skeletons) or punish Slashing damage in other ways (ie. ochre jellies).  But unless you're playing on a server which is completely loaded with skeletons, ochre jellies, bone golems and various other Slashing-resistant or Slashing-immune monsters, that battle axe specialization is not going to be a problem very often; the creatures which don't have any kind of resistance or immunity to Slashing are typically the vast majority.  Same goes for Piercing and Bludgeoning.

On the other hand, there 25 races of creatures, of which 24 races are possible choices for Favored Enemy (with Oozes being the exception here).  So unless you're on a server which is heavily loaded with a certain race (ie. Undead on the Prisoners of the Mist server or the various Zombie Survival servers), and your Ranger has chosen that race for one of his one-to-five Favored Enemies, then most of the time he'll be "up the creek without a paddle," to use your own words.

To boil it down a bit, your typical server is like a big tub full of, let's say, 500 oranges and 20 apples.  With Weapon Specialization, that server is telling the Fighter, "See those apples?  Those are the only fruits in that tub which are going to give you trouble.  Enjoy chopping up all those oranges."  But with Favored Enemy, that server is telling the Ranger, "See those apples?  Those are the only fruits that you're going to completely chop the living bajeezus out of.  With all those oranges, you're just going to have to pay full price."  Then your Ranger hits Level 5 (or 10, or 15, or 20) and takes another Favored Enemy, and some lanky guy in a janitor suit comes in, takes 20 oranges out of the tub and dumps 20 more apples into the tub.  But most of the tub is still oranges, which your Ranger's not particularly good at chopping up.

Hey, I can see that you're a big fan of Rangers.  I don't exactly think poorly of Rangers myself; my first character on that PotM server was a Ranger (with Favored Enemies: Undead, Shapechanger and Animal, of course).  When Favored Enemy works, it's great, especially if you have a "Taunter" build or your favored enemy race has stealthers on that server.  But it usually doesn't apply to most of the monsters you run into in your day-to-day ambling around between dungeons...not unless you know exactly where your favored enemies spawn on the server and spend a lot of time hanging out in those places, maybe.

I've gotten a lot more mileage out of Weapon Specialization, like I did when I played a battle-axe-specialist Fighter on PotM.  After ten or twenty chops, those extra 2 points of Damage really add up.  And then on top of that, you add in the extra-extra 2, 4 or even 6 Damage from each Critical Hit, depending on your weapon's critical multiplier....

Ow.

But hey, at least Rangers get to summon a critter to help them dish out more damage, so take comfort in that.


There is no snarky tone in my post - you have misunderstood something.  I was merely pointing out the negatives involved in WS.  That is all.  Your post did not include that.

Perhaps that will change the snarky tone in your post *shrugs*  perceptions, perceptions...

I am very well aware of the advantages of WS.  I think most here are.  And contrary to what you think, I am not a Ranger fan.  I am a Wizard fan.

Ranger in a direct comparison to Fighter is better, however.  We did this before on the Legacy forum.  In a basic vanilla environment.  Unfortunately, that thread is no longer valid as a link, or I would post it here.

YMMV.

@SW - yes, the Fighter can MC as a Ranger to get FE.  But there is a problem here.  FE increases with levels taken as a RANGER...not as a Fighter.  Whereas WS does not - one just needs the 4 levels of Fighter to pick it up.  So that Fighter trying to equal a Ranger with FEs+WS is really the same as that Ranger that MCs with Fighter to pick up WS...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_philty_

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« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2011, 05:24:06 am »


               While the question is simple, the answer is not. I will consider playing solo, pre-epic, non-prestige class and the OC (without spoiling anything).

The OC is pretty much 'solve anything thru combat'. And I remember having the hardest time playing as a Rogue and as a Wizard (Illusionist) in *some* critical situations - specifically when you cannot rest/Recall or your Rogue can only pray he's set a sufficient amount of traps to counter an undead army or some constructs with Truesight. The last part of the final chapter is particularly difficult for Spellcasters, IMO (I guess even with Tenser Transform, since there are ways to be dispelled). Keep in mind I am not saying these have a tough time thru-out the entire campaign, no! Actually, these are two of my favourite classes.

I have NOT played the OC as Bard (that many mention here), but I tried Bard in other mods, and frankly his two song abilities (one that buffs you and another that damages foes) are great. And their damage is magical in nature, so cannot be resisted!

This thread has actually made me wanna try bard solo! I only used Bard as pre-req for Dragon Disciple...
               
               

               


                     Modifié par philty , 19 septembre 2011 - 04:31 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #104 on: September 19, 2011, 02:29:30 pm »


               An MM (melee mage) has no problems, whatsoever, in the OCs.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par WebShaman, 19 septembre 2011 - 07:40 .