Weakest Non Prestige class?

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Ok so again.
thats with 10base rank (max at lvl 20) and 12base intelligence and 8base dex:

Ok, so you changed to a more reasonable gear set now. Are you resting after each trap to recharge your ioun stones. Only one active at a time and one or two uses/day.

Your example is still ridiculous. You have maxed out 3 cross class skills.  Even as a rogue with the most skill points in the game, I loathe to max even 1 cross class skill.

So you are skipping some Hide, Move Silent, Perform, Taunt, UMD, Tumble, Spellcraft, Concentration to max 3 cross class skills?? Doubtful in the extreme.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 03 août 2011 - 06:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
 
Only the Rogue may Disable Traps with 35+ DC, and are the only base class
with the only synergetic skill set with Disable Trap and Set Trap for +2
to both skills when ranks are 5 or greater.

But anyone can recover trap, the DC is +10, but as already stated, bards have no problem with higher DC. Same with trickery clerics who can with one level of Assassin get higher skills than rogue ever could have.

The only rogue's advantage is that he is the only class that can see traps with search DC of 36 and more. But such traps can be seen only in very specific environment. As I already said, in most modules traps are seen by anyone unless its rogue-specific module (and then it doesnt matter).

From the Wiki offered for general clarity:

Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater. With 5 or more ranks in the set trap skill a character gets a +2 synergy bonus on disable trap checks.

• The official description has an error. Any class can disarm a DC 35 trap. Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC greater than 35.
  
  
• The special prohibition involving rogues only applies to disarming a trap. Any class can successfully examine, flag, or recover any trap, provided the skill check is passed.

               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 03 août 2011 - 07:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Xardex wrote...

Secondary? Why? Spells are a very core part of a class if it has them. Would you say wizards entire spellbook is "secondary"? Buffs may be temporary but favored enemy, while passive, is conditional, and not always there when needed. Difference is buffs can be cast when you need them, but favored enemies cant be changed.

And you're missing my point about following the nose. Of course the ranger can go where-ever he wants to. Favored enemies? Good for the ranger. No favored enemies? Not nearly as powerful. Every ranger prefers to fight his favored enemies IC and OOC. What makes it stupid is that its not dynamic. (IC) Paladin can hate rogues, but change his mind through roleplay. Ranger makes the decision of races he likes to kill at levelup and cant roleplay them to other races. (OOC) you will want to fight enemies you can defeat easier. If you don't, you are playing in a module with no death penalty or have otherwise lost 'your game.'

Remember that this is my opinion and I have played so long that you won't be able to change it. The only place where rangers really shine is PvP, and even there only if you go pure.

No offense, but that final bit is poppycock; pure subjective bias, and not at all factual.

You say Rangers only shine in PvP and against FE. My own PW Ranger disproves that entirely. Just because you cannot see that a Ranger is formidable does not make it so. If your own experience illustrates your findings, I suggest you try another PW.

Not trying to change your opinion; just trying to help insure that it ain't contagious.

And yes; secondary. Being able to watch opposing casters begin their spell barrage with Dispels, Breaches, and Mords makes me smile a lot, as I am able to walk freely w/o buffs; unlike the major casters. The spells can help, but are not top priority. I use them to enhance the design and situation; do not plan on it as a major cornerstone.

And in RP, almost anything is viable; no need for a defense.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 03 août 2011 - 08:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Elhanan wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
 
Only the Rogue may Disable Traps with 35+ DC, and are the only base class
with the only synergetic skill set with Disable Trap and Set Trap for +2
to both skills when ranks are 5 or greater.

But anyone can recover trap, the DC is +10, but as already stated, bards have no problem with higher DC. Same with trickery clerics who can with one level of Assassin get higher skills than rogue ever could have.

The only rogue's advantage is that he is the only class that can see traps with search DC of 36 and more. But such traps can be seen only in very specific environment. As I already said, in most modules traps are seen by anyone unless its rogue-specific module (and then it doesnt matter).

From the Wiki offered for general clarity:

Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater. With 5 or more ranks in the set trap skill a character gets a +2 synergy bonus on disable trap checks.

• The official description has an error. Any class can disarm a DC 35 trap. Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC greater than 35.
  
  
• The special prohibition involving rogues only applies to disarming a trap. Any class can successfully examine, flag, or recover any trap, provided the skill check is passed.

Yes thank you that you repeated what I have just said.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Didn't know that only Rogues could see DC 36+ traps; must make it difficult to recover 'em....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_bututoy]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.


Huh? How does a ranger have any lower AB/AC than a fighter?  Even a straight ranger can take heavy armor as a feat. Compared to a fighter a Ranger with bane gets +2 AB against all FE, which puts it ahead of the fighter.

Ranger is an awesome class. Fights as good as a fighter and gets double the skill points, has access to many more class skills, gets a nice pet, gets spells...
Well I count with multiclass. Fighter can easily multiclass WM and therefore gets +7ab, the is no reason to take so much fighter we already discussed it in multiclass thread. The ranger itself provides no ab until lvl 21 only damage. Also ranger is mostly using dual-wield, two handler rangers looks kinda stupid '>. + He has no AC if he wants to go str based with dual wield. I also havent seen any good dex based ranger build.

WM lvl 28 -> +7ab
Bard lvl 16 -> +2song,+2warcry,+5 from curse song ac decrease.
Paladin lvl 15 -> +8ab
Cleric lvl 16 -> 10+ab depends on BAB the lower the better, with weapon he often reach cap
Ranger 8/10 -> +1ab
Ranger lvl 21 -> 3ab (dont forget at -2dual wield penalty)
Druid lvl 1 -> 2ab in nature
Barbarian -> 0ab unless rage is rescripted in that case its +3ab (+4 mighty)
AA lvl 29 -> +15ab

Maybe in low magic/lvl environment, the ranger might be usefull for rogues to get free dual-wield and extra attack with decent BAB (played one like this at 3T), I also have seen one ranger at pvp server Bastions of War, but his AB was horrible it was an archer that aimed for non-ac and mainly PM builds, he couldnt hit anyone else (+4weapons, +7armor environment -> in this environent paladin, clerics, bards get even another +1ab due to GMW) and with no AC he could do only one thing - run shoot, annoying but not powerfull.

Compare any ranger build on ranged weapon with any AA or any Zen cleric. The difference there is extremely huge.

How the hell did the WM lvl 28 get +7AB?!
WM only gets Superior Weapon Focus on lvls 5, 10, 13, 16. So without feats, that's +4ab.

Ranger, which should be dex based (damage will be taken care of @ lvl 28: STR +2, FE +6, BoE +2d6)

If elf dex is 18                           = +1 ab
Cat's Grace with W Finesse = +1
Aid                                              = +1
Bane                                          = +2
Dual wield penalty                  = -2

So without feats, ranger has +3 ab plus 2 extra attacks per round compared to WM. How can it be the weakest?

For ranger AC, capitalize on parry. lvl parry @ 28 = 31 points
                                                              dex mod @ 26 = 8
                                                               skill focus       = 3
                                                           epic skill focus = 10
                                                           TOTAL                = 51 points of parry
Rangers can parry 7 attacks per round due to dual wield. I survived Mephistopheles on parry.

this is without enchanted equipments. Imagine if there are magic armor and weapons.


               
               

               

                     Modifié par bututoy, 06 août 2011 - 07:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               :Oseriously?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

bututoy wrote...

How the .... did the WM lvl 28 get +7AB?! ....

As I understand. the AB from 28th lvl WM with SWF is +7, but this is also 38th lvl character.

A 38th lvl pure Ranger has +8 FE bonuses.

The WM gets bonuses To Hit with a specific melee weapon.

The Ranger gets FE bonuses to Damage, Spot, Listen, and Taunt using any weapon including ranged. This also effects creatures Immune to Crits.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

(IC) Paladin can hate rogues, but change his mind through roleplay. Ranger makes the decision of races he likes to kill at levelup and cant roleplay them to other races.

This is plainly ridiculous!  The Ranger starts out with a FAVORED RACE.  This means that the Ranger has spent serious time studying that Race, both weakness and strengths, etc!  As the Ranger levels up (re: gains EXPERIENCE!), she gets more FEs...to be selected AT THAT TIME!  What more of a RP prop ingame do you want!!???

As for those that she already has, what, do you want that she all of a "sudden" just loses all the time she has invested in learning about a FE?  She gets "magical amnesia" or somesuch?  Just so she can "replace" it with another?  This is not the Matrix here!  

That has absolutely nothing to do with RP here!

The Ranger has been studying, combating, etc this new FE the whole time, and now has reached a point where it has become an FE.

The Ranger FEs are perhaps one of the best RP type of special abilites in the game IMHO.  They can be tailored according to how the character progress, instead of getting everything at once, front loaded, so to speak.  This allows for a character whose abilities are tailored by the experiences that it has had.

So, RP.

Seriously, what some will try to "squeek under" the RP label is just unbelievable!

Oh yeah, back to the topic - Barbarian is clearly the weakest non-prestige class.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 06 août 2011 - 12:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

bututoy wrote...

For ranger AC, capitalize on parry. lvl parry @ 28 = 31 points
                                                              dex mod @ 26 = 8
                                                               skill focus       = 3
                                                           epic skill focus = 10
                                                           TOTAL                = 51 points of parry
Rangers can parry 7 attacks per round due to dual wield. I survived Mephistopheles on parry.

this is without enchanted equipments. Imagine if there are magic armor and weapons.

Sorry, but they cannot. Max number of parries per round is 3 , one per flurry.  I'd link you to the big parry discussion but as the legacy boards are still down... *sigh*

As for the topic, barbarian is most likely to be in an environment where their class features are not that helpful. Only in lower magic worlds do they shine, soooo

Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               @bututoy - I believe the seven you are seeing is the Attack series for a possibly Hasted 28th lvl Ranger that is DW (ie; base 4 attacks; add 1 for off-hand; add 1 for Imp TWF; add 1 for any Haste), But only three incoming attacks will be Parried (ie; one per flurry max). It looks better on manual paper than it really is.

However, with all thse folks illustrating the weakness of Parry, even a Ranger build can pull it off for a major win (ie; not the weakest class)!!!


               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 06 août 2011 - 08:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Krazy Solo]

               Wowzer, must appologize to all who posted in the thread...  I completely forgot to check back in.

From what I've read while glimpsing through all the long winded discusion, I've notice alot of debate over Rangers.

In all fairness I don't view Rangers weak perse, but specialized in what they do.  What a ranger brings to the table is not a power gaming class, but a Roleplaying masterpiece.  The Ranger learns to adapt to its surrounding, learning to despise a select group of enemies.  Over time the Ranger becomes a scourage of those enemies.

Weak is a lose term...  What I was aiming for was which class being hindered by being pure.  It is obvious the Fighter comes to the mind.  The class has nothing to gain beyond pre-epic besides its EWS.  I should have been more clear on my context.  The environment for myself is exclusive to OC, SoU, and HotU...  Yet I don't mind the discusions involving other environment types.  After all my main goal for this thread to gain knowledge that i didn't have before.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Krazy Solo wrote...

...What I was aiming for was which class being hindered by being pure.  It is obvious the Fighter comes to the mind.  The class has nothing to gain beyond pre-epic besides its EWS.

There is another perk to the fighter class post-epic. They continue to get a bonus feat every other level. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Krazy Solo wrote...
Weak is a lose term...  What I was aiming for was which class being hindered by being pure.  It is obvious the Fighter comes to the mind.  The class has nothing to gain beyond pre-epic besides its EWS.  I should have been more clear on my context.  The environment for myself is exclusive to OC, SoU, and HotU...  Yet I don't mind the discusions involving other environment types.  After all my main goal for this thread to gain knowledge that i didn't have before.

In that context. Barbarians. The main benefit is Rage-Strength. In HotU you will cap strength with items easily, meaning you will never want to use rage. But as everyone likes to point out, you could complete them all with a pure Barbarian if you want to. 

Since any class can make it through it comes down to fun...

Rangers actually benefit fairly well from being pure. Though like almost every class, they benefit from some multiclass.

I finished HotU recently with Ranger 21/Fighter4/Rogue3. FEs covered most of the module and Bane of Enemies is very powerful. Throw in big strength, and EWS and using a Greatsword and consistent damage was high, great fun. Plus consistent stealth is great for picking how to start battles.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_bututoy]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

:Oseriously?

Sorry, I think I wrote something causing confusion.

I survived M with enchanted items.

The computation I made is without enchantments.



About the parry, yes it's 1st, 3rd, 5th only. My bad.
Just wondering, if you're parrying 2 enemies, how does that compute?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par bututoy, 07 août 2011 - 05:45 .