Weakest Non Prestige class?

[Legacy_zDark Shadowz]

               

Lowlander wrote...

zDark Shadowz wrote...

15 Paladin gets +8 AB via Divine
Favor (5) bless+aid+prayer (3) and you can add 5 more via gmw (I think
they have it as a spell, if not then +6 ab holy sword spell instead)

Paladins do get nice buffing spells but they don't get tons of slots and potentially the best spell lasts 1 turn, so you need buffing right before the fight, and you wouldn't have much left after.

I am not really fond of spell dependencies like this. Is the enemy going to stand around while you buff youself for this one fight with 3 or 4 spells. The best spell Divine Favor only lasts 1 turn(Prayer only 1round/level). So one fight.  Are you going to rest after every second fight?? 

A lot of those +1 AB spells compete with other good spells. Are your really going to use three of limited spell slots for three +1 AB spells? Bless compete with Divine favor for slots. Aid with Bulls Strength/Aura/Eagles. Prayer competes with GMW/Magic Circle.

GMW/Holy Sword are great long lasting spells, but even on a low magic PW I would expect you would have +3 sword by 15th level? Still improving that to +5 would be nice.

I am not saying Paladins are weak. I think they are also a great class. I just think the idea that they are getting a regular +8 A bit of a stretch. More like when you already played an area and know when to buff so your short duration spell will last the upcoming battle and your spells are all geared toward AB and you have the luxury of casting 4 spells right before the fight.

Yeah Paladins are the kind of characters where you may want to throw down expertise/divine shield first to play out your buffs safely during an unexpected battle, but in general if it's a low magic server, paladins have some decent AB. A cleric is technically better at AB casting because at lvl 20, they can do (if extended): 

Divine Favor+5(2min)
Bless/aid+2 (20 turns)
Prayer+1 (4min)
Battletide+2(4min)
divine power +5(4min),
gmw +5(40hour)
Which is 15 spellAB there.

Then throw in all the healing spells, aura vs alignment damage shields and Implosion which 1-hit kills anything that fails save and doesn't have specific immunity to lvl 9 spells, evocation or specific implosion, due to the fact it's a sort of Black-hole like spell so doesn't count as death magic for cases of death immunity...

So cleric is kind of THE premium class for pwnage. Yet so many people just turn them into dex/wis spammers lol.

As for rogue, well... it's not the kind of class you are supposed to pure, that's why its the weakest.
Bard has invisibility and sensory spells, and the knock spell for unlocking stuff.
Ranger can stealth, with camo/and favoured enemy powers. Also has search and trap powers, and animal empathy
Monk has the evasion/imp evasion with massive movement speed and stunning fist. and spell resistance.
Cleric with trickery domain can cross-class for half-points of openlock, and use domain power for 1/2 cleric lvl bonus to open lock, net = same amount of open lock as a rogue with the same amount of skillpoint useage into it.

So yeah, aside from the sneak attack damage which doesnt apply when you're fighting an opponent who is attacking you, rogue's dont have anything to live for when it can be acquired elsewhere.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par zDark Shadowz, 03 août 2011 - 09:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Xardex]

               

Elhanan wrote...
But Rangers are far, far from weak. Typically, my FE selections in pre-Epic life (since I do not indulge in PvP) are:

* Undead - good from 1-40th lvl; generally my first selection.
* Giants - several types including Trolls.
* Outsiders - mid to high lvl foes; more Summons removed off lists.
* Elves (ie; Drow) or other common racial foe. I highly recommend Orc instead for Aenea.
* Abberation, Dragon, Constructs, or Elementals; your headache of choice.

Thing is, the Ranger can adapt to the environment; a bigger plus for those that enjoy the RP factor, The FE will effect beings Immune to Crit; a huge plus for almost anyone. And a boost to Spot, Listen, and Taunt for those enjoying these skills. And in Epic life, added FE types may be included to cover a wider range of foes.

Stupid? Not seeing it....

When fighting their favored enemy they do have their bonuses, but I'll much rather play paladin then ranger, because paladin has much more useful buffs that work against more then just a single race. When fighting against a non favored enemy you will be less useful.

In a vast PW you'll often find yourself at crossroads, with different enemies at every direction. In such place I want to follow my nose, not a choice I made a couple levels ago. You will want to go where your favored enemies are. This makes playing a ranger more restricted, and, simply put, stupid. And even more stupid is that you get only so many favored enemies, unless you take lots of ranger levels, which, like I said, restricts multiclassing, which does make a class weaker.

When I said that in PvP ranger has alot of potential I was kinda misleading. Ranger has great potential against his favored enemies. But facing an non-favored enemy? You'll be nothing more then a paladin with lesser buffs.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Xardex, 03 août 2011 - 12:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

HipMaestro wrote...
 Any multiclass to sorc, bard, wiz or UMD class can buff whenever they want wherever they want with complete impunity.

That doesn't seem quite right. When I played on a PW, they had time based rest restriciton, you weren't going to use be using short term buffs with impunity because you couldn't just rest every 5 minutes to get them back and  I have played many mods with similar rest restricitons.

As far as skills being cross class that you and the other guy mentioned, who is going to have the Available points to waste cross classing rogue skills. A wizard maybe, but most other characters don't get a lot of skill points, will not have high intelligence and need them for their own class features first (perform, concentration, disipline).

I have played many mods where you absolutely cannot see secret doors without good search even you stand on top of it and go eat lunch.  Traps I sometimes hit even as a rogue with good search even in search mode.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Just one question. Does Restoration remove the effects of Bard Curse song??

Yes but monsters can't do this and if player in pvp does this you simply use curse song again (its no problem if you have lasting).

Also you get AC boost, but if you are going to
cast spells you are going to have next to no armor, you also have no
uncanny dodge. So will you even make up the difference between a well
armored fighter?

Bards casting before combat. Mage armor (hour/lvl), Ability boosts (hour/lvl), Keen/Gmw (hour/lvl), Improved Invisibility (turn/lvl). Before 1.69 you could also use warcry with armor and many servers havent updated this yet although they are at 1.69. Even then you can wear armor with arcane failure penalty decrease and stripping shield is possible anytime. +Good bard should have still spell feat so he can cast in case of dispell etc. And one more possibility is extend spell and cast the warcry/sonic damage shield just before fight and with 20+bard lvls its often enough.

As far as all the skills. Search to see traps,
disable traps, open locks while stealthed?? Again skill bonus not as
high as you claimed with unless you can show how you get your perform so
high.

Not so high but how high is needed in average module? Next to none because you can see around 30DC traps without items, and most builders doesnt set more than 35 because then only rogue could see it and most modules are designed for everyone (and if not its doesnt matter for any class comparation). In high lvl environment, you can get the like 60perform without problem and you can change your items. I was playing bard8/dd22/rdd10 at one server and since I had to have 11charisma base I havent have enough skills for anything so I knew I need to rach 55 at recover trap, 35 at search and 55 at open lock. So I get all items available with these skills, gloves of the rogue +2, amulet of lesser master +3, custom helm +6, helm of watchtower +10search, ioun stone for dex and inteligence, 2x ring of +4int, and 2x custom ring +4dex. And then when I get into the trapped door, I changed my gear to inteligence/search, one i saw the trap I changed my gear to dex/openlock/disable trap and remove the trap and opened the lock. And of course I counted also with +1 from bard song '>. Was able to do this with base of 10rank in open lock/disable trap and 0 in search.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 03 août 2011 - 12:39 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
 I was playing bard8/dd22/rdd10 at one server and since I had to have 11charisma base I havent have enough skills

Yes I know, you spend all your time on Level 40 powergaming server where everyone is a Bard/RDD or a Level 28WM. Sounds like fun (NOT). 

Level 40 powergaming servers are not the only environment. But if that is your thing. I acknowledge that epic bardsong is very powerful.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Lowlander wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...
 Any multiclass to sorc, bard, wiz or UMD class can buff whenever they want wherever they want with complete impunity.

That doesn't seem quite right. When I played on a PW, they had time based rest restriciton, you weren't going to use be using short term buffs with impunity because you couldn't just rest every 5 minutes to get them back and  I have played many mods with similar rest restricitons.

Naturally, your PC would need to have the buffs slotted and ready to use or end up placing themself intentionally in a position of disadvantage.  There are always ways to custom nerf the power of the invisibility and Greater Sanctuary effects including making the duration ridiculously short.  Scribe scroll and Craft wand are highly prized feats to avoid running short of magical buffs.  UMDers are limited to buying the finsihed spell scroll, of course.

As far as skills being cross class that you and the other guy mentioned, who is going to have the Available points to waste cross classing rogue skills. A wizard maybe, but most other characters don't get a lot of skill points, will not have high intelligence and need them for their own class features first (perform, concentration, disipline).

I do it all the time.  It's just a matter of setting INT to the level you need to get the desired skill levels.  Sure, there is always a concession between the abilities you want max and the skill set you will settle for and always customized specifically for the environment (some do not even script default Search or Persuade checks, for instance).  I thought this comment was pertaining to bard specifically, which has one of the better skill allocation bases (even better than rogue with max Spellcraft for saves) with very few cross-class.  But the same point applies to building any class.  Expect  to always be faced with a trade-off to maximize the build.

I have played many mods where you absolutely cannot see secret doors without good search even you stand on top of it and go eat lunch.  Traps I sometimes hit even as a rogue with good search even in search mode.

Then, obviously, you would need to max that skill if that environment has seriously modified the default Seach check on its traps.  Some content has purposely inserted very high skill check throughout the design but that is more of an exception than a standard.  I expect to play an environment briefly with an all-purpose, non-maximized character to get a feel of how it was scripted and then dump that character completely to build one that will "fit" that design.

But to believe there is a single skill allocation template to service all custom content designs is... well... umm... creating an unnecessary roadblock to building effective characters. 

Apologies to all for allowing this to stray so far OT.  I promise it won't happen again. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 03 août 2011 - 03:00 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

zDark Shadowz wrote....

... As for rogue, well... it's not the kind of class you are supposed to pure, that's why its the weakest.
Bard has invisibility and sensory spells, and the knock spell for unlocking stuff.
Ranger can stealth, with camo/and favoured enemy powers. Also has search and trap powers, and animal empathy
Monk has the evasion/imp evasion with massive movement speed and stunning fist. and spell resistance.
Cleric with trickery domain can cross-class for half-points of openlock, and use domain power for 1/2 cleric lvl bonus to open lock, net = same amount of open lock as a rogue with the same amount of skillpoint useage into it.

So yeah, aside from the sneak attack damage which doesnt apply when you're fighting an opponent who is attacking you, rogue's dont have anything to live for when it can be acquired elsewhere.

Rogue has both Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, as well as at least twice the base Skill Pts of any other base class.
 
Only the Rogue may Disable Traps with 35+ DC, and are the only base class with the only synergetic skill set with Disable Trap and Set Trap for +2 to both skills when ranks are 5 or greater.

Rogue may be the only class to have all three Persuasion skills, for those Players and environments that choose to implement them.

And then Sneak Attack as a bonus.....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

Naturally, your PC would need to have the buffs slotted and ready to use or end up placing themself intentionally in a position of disadvantage.  There are always ways to custom nerf the power of the invisibility and Greater Sanctuary effects including making the duration ridiculously short.  Scribe scroll and Craft wand are highly prized feats to avoid running short of magical buffs.  UMDers are limited to buying the finsihed spell scroll, of course.

That doesn't back up your claim that spell casters can buff all the time with complete impunity.  Short term buffs mean only occasional use whichis the oppositte of complete impunity.

Again you are mischaracterizing traps. Sure if you know where the trap is you can stand their long enough with a low search score to eventually see it. But with a low search score scouting, you will usually walk over the trap before you see it.  That is the difference. Rogues with the most skill point in the game and these skills as class skills are obviously going to be much better at scouting.  Even if you see it chances are if it is blocking your way you can disarm it if you aren't a Rogue, can't get through a decently locked door if you aren't a  Rogue, without breaking stealth.

This is the key. The module can be for anyone. You can walk through cast find traps to clear the traps, knock to open the locks, or just break down the door. But all of those things will break stealth/Invis. 

Only the Rogue is really suited to stealth scouting and seeing/getitng by the traps and throught the locked doors without ever breaking stealth.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 03 août 2011 - 03:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Xardex wrote...

When fighting their favored enemy they do have their bonuses, but I'll much rather play paladin then ranger, because paladin has much more useful buffs that work against more then just a single race. When fighting against a non favored enemy you will be less useful.

In a vast PW you'll often find yourself at crossroads, with different enemies at every direction. In such place I want to follow my nose, not a choice I made a couple levels ago. You will want to go where your favored enemies are. This makes playing a ranger more restricted, and, simply put, stupid. And even more stupid is that you get only so many favored enemies, unless you take lots of ranger levels, which, like I said, restricts multiclassing, which does make a class weaker.

When I said that in PvP ranger has alot of potential I was kinda misleading. Ranger has great potential against his favored enemies. But facing an non-favored enemy? You'll be nothing more then a paladin with lesser buffs.

Ranger and Paladin both have Spells; both are secondary, IMO. Buffs are temporary, must be Activated, and are open to dispelling. FE bonuses are Passive, and are always there when needed.

The Ranger may also 'follows the nose'; selecting FE choices that are seen best to him. But unlike the 3E model, NWN1 Rangers improve in them all as they mature.
 
Personally, I choose not to select the Recommended Button choice of Goblinoids as they fall easily under common circumstances (ie; the C:KR mod ain't normal), as well as Fey and Vermin, And since Animal Empathy is available, Animals, Beasts, and Magical Beasts are covered well enough for me. Choosing not to use PvP, I may bypass the Racial entries commonly seen. With the exception of another Plane, my 'vast PW' Ranger can generally wander where he wants; could do that too, if I choose to upgrade.

And the best part if that the FE are bonuses; not mandatories, as they are quite capable warriors against all foes, too.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 03 août 2011 - 03:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lowlander wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...
 I was playing bard8/dd22/rdd10 at one server and since I had to have 11charisma base I havent have enough skills

Yes I know, you spend all your time on Level 40 powergaming server where everyone is a Bard/RDD or a Level 28WM. Sounds like fun (NOT). 

Level 40 powergaming servers are not the only environment. But if that is your thing. I acknowledge that epic bardsong is very powerful.

This example has nothing to do with that server I described earlier environment. The reason I showed this example is how just few levels of bards and 10ranks (max at lvl 20) allowed me to recover traps with DC 55 and open lock with DC 55 with most common items in default NWN.

Elhanan wrote...
 
Only
the Rogue may Disable Traps with 35+ DC, and are the only base class
with the only synergetic skill set with Disable Trap and Set Trap for +2
to both skills when ranks are 5 or greater.

But anyone can recover trap, the DC is +10, but as already stated, bards have no problem with higher DC. Same with trickery clerics who can with one level of Assassin get higher skills than rogue ever could have.

The only rogue's advantage is that he is the only class that can see traps with search DC of 36 and more. But such traps can be seen only in very specific environment. As I already said, in most modules traps are seen by anyone unless its rogue-specific module (and then it doesnt matter).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

This example has nothing to do with that server I described earlier environment. The reason I showed this example is how just few levels of bards and 10ranks (max at lvl 20) allowed me to recover traps with DC 55 and open lock with DC 55 with most common items in default NWN.

That is total nonsense. It has everything to do with you being a level 40 character on a powergamer server with access to > +20 points worth of gear. It has nothing to do with you being a Bard as you get +1 point from that.

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Same with trickery clerics who can with one level of Assassin get higher skills than rogue ever could have.

Uh sure. That is the same thing as saying a Cleric/Rogue with trickery domains gets higher bonus than a straight rogue. Assasins are essentially the same skill set as rogues.  You could also be a Bard/Rogue boosting with song, for that matter. Rogue (or Assassin) is a great class to add anywhere to open up a wide array of skills. By your eariler defnition of fighter, classes that add a lot in a small splash are great classes.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 03 août 2011 - 04:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Xardex]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Ranger and Paladin both have Spells; both are secondary, IMO. Buffs are temporary, must be Activated, and are open to dispelling. FE bonuses are Passive, and are always there when needed.

Personally, I choose not to select the Recommended Button choice of Goblinoids as they fall easily under common circumstances (ie; the C:KR mod ain't normal), as well as Fey and Vermin, And since Animal Empathy is available, Animals, Beasts, and Magical Beasts are covered well enough for me. Choosing not to use PvP, I may bypass the Racial entries commonly seen. With the exception of another Plane, my 'vast PW' Ranger can generally wander where he wants; could do that too, if I choose to upgrade.

Secondary? Why? Spells are a very core part of a class if it has them. Would you say wizards entire spellbook is "secondary"? Buffs may be temporary but favored enemy, while passive, is conditional, and not always there when needed. Difference is buffs can be cast when you need them, but favored enemies cant be changed.

And you're missing my point about following the nose. Of course the ranger can go where-ever he wants to. Favored enemies? Good for the ranger. No favored enemies? Not nearly as powerful. Every ranger prefers to fight his favored enemies IC and OOC. What makes it stupid is that its not dynamic. (IC) Paladin can hate rogues, but change his mind through roleplay. Ranger makes the decision of races he likes to kill at levelup and cant roleplay them to other races. (OOC) you will want to fight enemies you can defeat easier. If you don't, you are playing in a module with no death penalty or have otherwise lost 'your game.'

Remember that this is my opinion and I have played so long that you won't be able to change it. The only place where rangers really shine is PvP, and even there only if you go pure.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lowlander wrote...

That is total nonsense. It has everything to do with you being a level 40 character on a powergamer server with access to > +20 points worth of gear. It has nothing to do with you being a Bard as you get +1 point from that.

Ok so again.
Watchman's Helm -> +8search
Gloves of the Rogue -> +2disable +2 openlock +2settrap
Lesser Amulet of the Master -> +2disable +2seach +2openlock
Bard song -> +1
+thieves tools +1-10

Now intelligence bonuses items, +12int -> +6disable trap and search
Ioun Stone +2
2x ring of clear thought +3 or +4
+ foxs cunning selfboost/potion 2-5

Now dexterity bonuses items, +12dex -> +6open lock
Ioun Stone +2
Belt of Agility +3 or +4
Boots of Elvenkind +2
+ cats grace selfboost/potion +2-5

thats with 10base rank (max at lvl 20) and 12base intelligence and 8base dex:
open lock: 10(base)+5(dex)+4(items)+1song=20open lock +20roll = 40DC + possible thieve' s tools +1-10
disable trap: 10(base)+7(int)+4(items)+1song=22disable trap+20roll = 42DC (without better song/amulet of master/higher base rank not able to recover traps at 35+ correct)
search: 10(base)+7(int)+10(items)+1(song)=28search + 1d20 vs max 35 DC

These are all very low lvl and pretty common items and I saw them in every module I played yet. While my example build benefited only from cats grace/foxs cunning and +1bard song, the more bard you have the bigger bonus you get from bard song up to +4. But even +1 is enough in the low lvl environment you from some reason consider to be more "proper" for this discussion<><>

Uh sure. That is the same thing as saying a Cleric/Rogue with trickery
domains gets higher bonus than a straight rogue. Assasins are
essentially the same skill set as rogues.  You could also be a
Bard/Rogue boosting with song, for that matter. Rogue (or Assassin) is a
great class to add anywhere to open up a wide array of skills. By your
eariler defnition of fighter, classes that add a lot in a small splash
are great classes.

Yes correct, but I think you got my point.

Xardex wrote...


Secondary? Why? Spells are a very core part of a class if it has
them. Would you say wizards entire spellbook is "secondary"? Buffs may
be temporary but favored enemy, while passive, is conditional, and not
always there when needed. Difference is buffs can be cast when you need
them, but favored enemies cant be changed.

Well said.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 03 août 2011 - 04:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Xardex wrote...

Secondary? Why? Spells are a very core part of a class if it has them. Would you say wizards entire spellbook is "secondary"? Buffs may be temporary but favored enemy, while passive, is conditional, and not always there when needed. Difference is buffs can be cast when you need them, but favored enemies cant be changed.

Secondary because they are both fighters at heart with quite limited spell slots.  Divine Favor is definitely the best Paladin spell as it is the least situational (Unlike GMW that is usually only +1 to the weapon you have at that level).

But Divine favor lasts 1 turn.

FE last forever. You will probably hitting a lot more enemies with Favored enemies active than Divine Power active.

I recently playe HotU with a Ranger (FE - Undead,Aberrations, Outsiders, Dwarves, Elves). I would say >95% of tougher enemies were Favored Enemies. Where I was getting an additional +2AB and  +2D6 +5 damage. It is also a lot more fun for me to just attack my enemies with going Buff, fight, Buff, fight, rest, Buff. I prefer fight, fight, fight....scout fight, fight, fight.

Since I don't really like spells to begin with I had no points in Wis and more on Strength, so when I did occasionally meet an non-FE (like Golems) there were still no problem for a high Strength, high level Ranger with a two-handed sword.

EDIT: Not worth bumping thread, but it should be obvious that extending a 2 minute spell to make it a 4 minute spell doesn't change much.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 03 août 2011 - 05:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Xardex wrote...

Secondary? Why? Spells are a very core part of a class if it has them. Would you say wizards entire spellbook is "secondary"? Buffs may be temporary but favored enemy, while passive, is conditional, and not always there when needed. Difference is buffs can be cast when you need them, but favored enemies cant be changed.

Secondary because they are both fighters at heart with quite limited spell slots.  Divine Favor is definitely the best Paladin spell as it is the least situational (Unlike GMW that is usually only +1 to the weapon you have at that level).

But Divine favor lasts 1 turn.

FE last forever. You will probably hitting a lot more enemies with Favored enemies active than Divine Power active.

Paladin without extend spell ? -> fail
The last sentence might seem to be true, but especiall in OC you can rest after every fight. And even if not, you are not forced to use this 2 minute spell at each enemy, just strongest ones.

Anyway Im end of this thread. I already said what I have think and there is no point to argue with peoples that does play only one specific enviroment. (And im one of them too)