Weakest Non Prestige class?

[Legacy_zDark Shadowz]

               15 Paladin gets +8 AB via Divine Favor (5) bless+aid+prayer (3) and you can add 5 more via gmw (I think they have it as a spell, if not then +6 ab holy sword spell instead)

Weakest class imo is.... well... I don't know. If we're only doing this for lvl 20 chars I'd say itd be Rogue, simply because there are far faster and better stealthers (bard/monk/ranger) and that, alone, they can't utilise their sneak attacks efficiently beyond their first strike.

But that's only in terms of "strength of character". Rogues still have epic skillz to pay the billz, and i'd rather have a rogue with me negotiating traps than a dumb barbarian (unless of course, pushing said barbarian into the traps to trigger them off and survive is a better option XD)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

zDark Shadowz wrote...

15 Paladin gets +8 AB via Divine Favor (5) bless+aid+prayer (3) and you can add 5 more via gmw (I think they have it as a spell, if not then +6 ab holy sword spell instead)

Weakest class imo is.... well... I don't know. If we're only doing this for lvl 20 chars I'd say itd be Rogue, simply because there are far faster and better stealthers (bard/monk/ranger) and that, alone, they can't utilise their sneak attacks efficiently beyond their first strike.

But that's only in terms of "strength of character". Rogues still have epic skillz to pay the billz, and i'd rather have a rogue with me negotiating traps than a dumb barbarian (unless of course, pushing said barbarian into the traps to trigger them off and survive is a better option XD)

Thanks for the Paladin info; helpful. Makes Extended Spell look really great in a major Paladin design.

Q: Why would a Bard make a better Stealther than a Rogue? Not an experienced Stealther or builder here, but the extra Skill pts would seem to favor the Rogue. And if the answer is in the Songs, a PC that is singing to stay hidden is just so... WRONG....


               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Elhanan wrote...
Q: Why would a Bard make a better Stealther than a Rogue?

One wouldn't think so.  Perhaps the combination of Amplify, Empowered Cat's Grace & Improved Invisibility would do the trick with admittedly true seers negating the powers of any stealther
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

zDark Shadowz wrote...
Weakest class imo is.... well... I don't know. If we're only doing this for lvl 20 chars I'd say itd be Rogue, simply because there are far faster and better stealthers (bard/monk/ranger) and that, alone, they can't utilise their sneak attacks efficiently beyond their first strike.

Better stealthers? For scouting it would kind of suck to have a stealther that can't see traps (bard/monk have no search, Ranger does), can't disable traps (none of them) and can't get past a locked door without breaking stealth (none of them). Or lack of evasion when you do step on a trap (Ranger/Bard). Rogues definitley have the best skills to complement their stealth.

As far as sneak attacks go, I am always amazed how many get triggered when I am not even trying + my Rogues all have High Strength and Greatswords, so I never depend on sneak attacks, that is just icing on the cake. Before the Cap I usually have 4,8 or 12 Rogue levels with the rest Full Bab fighting classes. 

I play Rogues so much that if I am forced to choose a Bard (needed for Fighter/AA), I can barely stand the loss of cool rogue skills.  Then there is loss of evasion, I remember fighting rock hurling Giants as a Rogue, not a Rogue. The rogue was just ducking all the fly rocks, it was rude awakening fighting the same giants without evasion, I was getting creamed by the rocks.

Rogue may not be the strongest class, but they are definitely near the top of the most fun classes.

Really there are no weak base classes, they are all good, it depends on your taste, your enironment and what you want to do.  The other big factor is multi-classing is a main tool of character building in NWN. None of the classes exist in isolation, you can fill in gaps by adding other classes.

zDark Shadowz wrote...

15 Paladin gets +8 AB via Divine
Favor (5) bless+aid+prayer (3) and you can add 5 more via gmw (I think
they have it as a spell, if not then +6 ab holy sword spell instead)

Paladins do get nice buffing spells but they don't get tons of slots and potentially the best spell lasts 1 turn, so you need buffing right before the fight, and you wouldn't have much left after.

I am not really fond of spell dependencies like this. Is the enemy going to stand around while you buff youself for this one fight with 3 or 4 spells. The best spell Divine Favor only lasts 1 turn(Prayer only 1round/level). So one fight.  Are you going to rest after every second fight?? 

A lot of those +1 AB spells compete with other good spells. Are your really going to use three of limited spell slots for three +1 AB spells? Bless compete with Divine favor for slots. Aid with Bulls Strength/Aura/Eagles. Prayer competes with GMW/Magic Circle.

GMW/Holy Sword are great long lasting spells, but even on a low magic PW I would expect you would have +3 sword by 15th level? Still improving that to +5 would be nice.

I am not saying Paladins are weak. I think they are also a great class. I just think the idea that they are getting a regular +8 A bit of a stretch. More like when you already played an area and know when to buff so your short duration spell will last the upcoming battle and your spells are all geared toward AB and you have the luxury of casting 4 spells right before the fight.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 02 août 2011 - 08:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               Yeah it's true that dex fighters are not a class but they tend to be certain classes.  Sure you can take 2h sword with a rogue so then he's not a dex fighter which sort of proves my point,  though it's not strictly a class.  As far as the discussion about domination, which is a good tactic, that is easily remedied by having your mages, druids, etc.. just not summon animals.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Xardex]

               Bard is easily the strongest non timestopping IGMS spammer (/caster) base class. Even with no multiclass.

At level 20 pure bard you'll have an effective class derived AB of 23, AC of 7, DMG +3, along with other bonuses from the song, including saves and all skills +8, making bard do pretty much anything better then others. And remember the penalties of the same amounts to your enemies. You can have your song on for 20 minutes nonstop if you want at this point aswell.

Also remember that bard has pretty much all the important class skills regardless of what he is going to become: Disciple, Tumble, Spellcraft, Concentration, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Taunt, Use Magic Device!

Not interested in combat?..
Appraise, Bluff, Persuade, Pick Pocket, Lore, Heal.

Downside is, you have perform which you have to take, but make a human and you'll have 4 skills to pick after it, +-some depending on your multiclass choices.

Only thing missing is Spot, but you have listen and lvl 1 spell that gives a ridiculous +20 bonus to it that stacks with your song bonus, and your curse song penalty to enemies MS.

Bard song is just ridiculous in base nwn and with just 16 levels youll have that effective +7 AB and +7 AC along with full save bonuses. and plenty skill bonuses, temp hp, dmg... 16 levels means you can also very easily and effectively multiclass into just about anything.

Bard 16 / Fighter 5 / WM 19
4 attacks per round, +11 AB with weapon of choice along with other song bonuses, epic weapon speciality.

Bard 17 / Fighter 4 / 19 AA
4 attacks per round + rapid shot, +17 AB (), epic weapon specialty.

Bard 16 / Paladin
Divine shield + power, remember, bard is cha caster......

Bard 20 / RDD 10 / PM 10
. . . . . . . Oh no! Only 3 attacks per round.

Bard 16 / Sorcerer 20 / Paladin 4
4 attacks, full sorc and bard casting, good saves......

Bard 16 / ROGUEWHATEVER
Im done.

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In my opinion ranger is the stupidest if not the weakest class.
Sure, he has favored enemies and dual wield. Dual wield isnt useful unless you are dexer, unless you dont care about AC that much... And favored enemy, which has its limited use, I find to only limit where you want to go, which is irritating in a vast world and just makes you want to play another class.

In PvP ranger has alot of potential, but unless you want to be picked on by trolling half elves you'll need to take 30 ranger to cover all the playable races, which severely limits your multiclass capabilities.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Xardex, 02 août 2011 - 11:21 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Lowlander wrote...
 Is the enemy going to stand around while you buff youself for this one fight with 3 or 4 spells.

They'll have to... if you scout while invisible or in Gtr Sanctuary, but I acknowledge the point of being inconvenient.  Unless a buff spell lasts long enough for a sustained combat duration (2 turns is my own baseline), its use is problematic.

edit: I also agree with Xardex.  Bard, once you've played it extensively, becomes a formidable class with indispellable buffs & irresistable curses (epic Lasting Inspiration they seem to last forever).  One of the nastiest builds I ever made on a ridiculous server that essentially neutralized all the effectiveness of divine & arcane casters (by spell immunes & insane SRs) could still be tanked with a high-level multiclass bard.  I realize this has evolved to be a 20-and-under topic, but the same characteristics apply, just to a lesser degree in pre-epic levels.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 02 août 2011 - 11:40 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               I think we have all been educated about the power of Epic Curse Song. Just one question. Does Restoration remove the effects of Bard Curse song??

For Pre-Epic I remain dubious. The pure 20 level Bard isn't likely to have a 20 level song with 50 perform requirement. 30 for 16, sure, but 50???

Also you get AC boost, but if you are going to cast spells you are going to have next to no armor, you also have no uncanny dodge. So will you even make up the difference between a well armored fighter?

As far as all the skills. Search to see traps, disable traps, open locks while stealthed?? Again skill bonus not as high as you claimed with unless you can show how you get your perform so high.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 03 août 2011 - 01:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

They'll have to... if you scout while invisible or in Gtr Sanctuary, but I acknowledge the point of being inconvenient.  Unless a buff spell lasts long enough for a sustained combat duration (2 turns is my own baseline), its use is problematic.

Paladins now get Invis and G-Sanctuary?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               @ Lowlander - Based on my Ranger play, the sim Paladin spells would hardly need to be used for every battle; not even every major encounter. I hardly rely on my spells much, esp during Epic play, and in pre-Epic they are secondary tactics. And if Extended Spell were used, this would seemingly be of great use for those occasions when the boosts were required. But if one were reliant on spells, based on a recently viewed post, I would suggest insuring the Paladin is 25+ lvls to avoid Dispels.

@ ffbj - Animal Empathy can remove Summon 1-6 as being effective spells; that covers a lot of summoned help from most caster types over a fair period of time. And in higher lvls, the domination can aquire allied Beasts and Magical Beasts for a helpful assist. While not always powerful, it can offer a distraction be it a Grey Renderer, Sphinx, Manticore, petrification critters, etc.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               @ Xardex - I do not play Bards myself, as I dislike the ties to CHA. But I do agree that the class has one of the best Skill packages. And I have enjoyed the boost of Songs in magic dead zones, so that is a plus, too. It would be great if the 6 Skill Pt fix would be utilized more, as this is one of the best class repairs seen.

But Rangers are far, far from weak. Typically, my FE selections in pre-Epic life (since I do not indulge in PvP) are:

* Undead - good from 1-40th lvl; generally my first selection.
* Giants - several types including Trolls.
* Outsiders - mid to high lvl foes; more Summons removed off lists.
* Elves (ie; Drow) or other common racial foe. I highly recommend Orc instead for Aenea.
* Abberation, Dragon, Constructs, or Elementals; your headache of choice.

Thing is, the Ranger can adapt to the environment; a bigger plus for those that enjoy the RP factor, The FE will effect beings Immune to Crit; a huge plus for almost anyone. And a boost to Spot, Listen, and Taunt for those enjoying these skills. And in Epic life, added FE types may be included to cover a wider range of foes.

Stupid? Not seeing it....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Paladins now get Invis and G-Sanctuary?

Those that m/c with Rogue can, as well as other caster or UMD toting classes.



Edit - Sorry for the multiple hat trick postings.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 03 août 2011 - 01:46 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Lowlander wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...
They'll have to... if you scout while invisible or in Gtr Sanctuary, but I acknowledge the point of being inconvenient.  Unless a buff spell lasts long enough for a sustained combat duration (2 turns is my own baseline), its use is problematic.

Paladins now get Invis and G-Sanctuary?

I meant that as general tactic for any spell caster, not specifically paladin, which I don't consider a spellcaster at all even with the "vast" repertoire at their disposal.  Any multiclass to sorc, bard, wiz or UMD class can buff whenever they want wherever they want with complete impunity.

Lowlander wrote...
Just one question. Does Restoration remove the effects of Bard Curse song??

As far as all the skills. Search to see traps, disable traps, open locks while stealthed??

That's two, but no problem.

To remove the effects of curse song... any restoration version works, resting works, remove curse does not work.

All those skills can be cross-classed to 11 by level 20.  Search skill can be set rather low as long as you stay in Detect mode or stand still it will spot traps easily, at least the types of traps laying out there for level 20 characters.  Combine the basic skill level(s) with Empowered Cat's Grace, Empowered Fox's Cunning & Empored Eagle's Spendor  then sing... you can reach very close to level 20 rogue levels.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 03 août 2011 - 02:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Elhanan wrote...
Those that m/c with Rogue can, as well as other caster or UMD toting classes.

So why bother with Paladin spells at all then, apply the Wis points to strength, then you can just UMD and have everything you need.

'>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Those that m/c with Rogue can, as well as other caster or UMD toting classes.

So why bother with Paladin spells at all then, apply the Wis points to strength, then you can just UMD and have everything you need.

'>

Caster strength for one; scrolls can be dispelled more easily. Item creation may be another, though of this I am uncertain. And the WIS of 14+ is all that is required; no great investment lost.