Weakest Non Prestige class?

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

WebShaman wrote...

The Ranger has the biggest advantage over the other full BaB classes, in that it can Set Traps. 'Nuff said.

The Fighter does not care about snares; plenty of Feets in which to procede....

The Paladin is not afraid of traps either; immune....

Which leaves the Barbarian with Uncanny Dodge and d12 to soak the damage, but dies from the peace giving thought....


               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Elhanan wrote...
The Paladin is not afraid of traps either; immune....

Elhanan wrote...
And while a pre-Epic 20th lvl Ftr has a
grunch of Feats, both the Ftr and Rgr have access to the same AB feats,
while the FE bonuses grant +5 dmg; the Ftr only +4 dmg.

Are we talking about the same game, or I have I missed something?

Paladins immune ot traps???

AFAIK, the Fighters only unique feat Pre-Epic is WS which is +2 damage, not +4.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
The Paladin is not afraid of traps either; immune....

Are we talking about the same game, or I have I missed something?

Paladins immune ot traps???

AFAIK, the Fighters only unique feat Pre-Epic is WS which is +2 damage, not +4.

Pls re-read the edited portion again; Paladins are Immune to Fear, and the pun was intentional.

And thanks for the correction; +5 dmg is so much better than +2, and +9 dmg at 40th still tops +6 for Ftr. Combined makes for a quite effective archer, too.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               Yes pre-epic +5 FE damage vs +2 WS much nicer and once you have 5 FEs you are covering your most important enemies.

Post epic, BoE (+2d6) + FE +5(to +9) certainly trumps EWS +6.

My take on Ranger vs Fighter is that Ranger is the better class to Major in, Fighter is the better class to Minor in.

Fighter is good for 4 level epic splash to get EWS when you filled up majoring in something else, like Ranger. '>

BoE +FE + EWS = Ouch!

Though in Pre Epic mods/worlds Rangers also rock. Full Bab, more skill points and the skills you get:
Stealth: Rangers are the only full BAB  base class that have stealth as a class skill. (AA is PrC that does it).
Search: I also like search so I don't step on traps.
Set Traps: Setting them is nice too, but not something I usually do with Rangers.
Animal Emp: Somewhat situational, but many mods have helpful animals that you don't know about unless you can talk to them and you can make allies from woodland creatures.

A scout that can sneak around undetected, avoiding and setting traps and can still fight like a fighter.  Sweet.

But wait, I get a strong Animal Companion that I can call to fight by my side anytime as well. Nice...

Oh and Rangers can cast spells and get dual wield for free.

IMO people look at the wrong things when they think Rangers are weak. They look at dual-wielding only in light armor and the admittedly limited spells. When it is really the Skills/FE that are the main benefits.

But when looked at in totality, Rangers are almost too good.  They are my main class when I know BoE is within reach. I Majored (with Rog/Ftr splash) in Ranger for Aielund  and my last playthrough of Hordes.  In Hordes I really discovered how Rangers are indeed awesome Archers with BoE and FE when I defended Lith My'athar from the Gate towers with my Bow taking out enemy Commanders/specials that were all FEs.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Yes pre-epic +5 FE damage vs +2 WS much nicer and once you have 5 FEs you are covering your most important enemies.

Post epic, BoE (+2d6) + FE +5(to +9) certainly trumps EWS +6.

My take on Ranger vs Fighter is that Ranger is the better class to Major in, Fighter is the better class to Minor in.

Fighter is good for 4 level epic splash to get EWS when you filled up majoring in something else, like Ranger. '>

BoE +FE + EWS = Ouch!

Though in Pre Epic mods/worlds Rangers also rock. Full Bab, more skill points and the skills you get:
Stealth: Rangers are the only full BAB  base class that have stealth as a class skill. (AA is PrC that does it).
Search: I also like search so I don't step on traps.
Set Traps: Setting them is nice too, but not something I usually do with Rangers.
Animal Emp: Somewhat situational, but many mods have helpful animals that you don't know about unless you can talk to them and you can make allies from woodland creatures.

A scout that can sneak around undetected, avoiding and setting traps and can still fight like a fighter.  Sweet.

But wait, I get a strong Animal Companion that I can call to fight by my side anytime as well. Nice...

Oh and Rangers can cast spells and get dual wield for free.

IMO people look at the wrong things when they think Rangers are weak. They look at dual-wielding only in light armor and the admittedly limited spells. When it is really the Skills/FE that are the main benefits.

But when looked at in totality, Rangers are almost too good.  They are my main class when I know BoE is within reach. I Majored (with Rog/Ftr splash) in Ranger for Aielund  and my last playthrough of Hordes. In Hordes I really discovered how Rangers are indeed awesome Archers with BoE and FE when I defended Lith My'athar from the Gate towers with my Bow taking out enemy Commanders/specials that were all FEs.

*sighs in imagined pain* Agreed! 
 
Add a few Rogue lvls for Tumble, UMD, Recover Traps, Sneak Attack dmg, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, etc, and one can have one of the most versatile builds that is offered.

And I highly advise higher ranks of Animal Empathy for dominating opposing casters summons, and have them go chomp on the mages! Or dominating that basalisk, manticore, or other Magical beastly inconvenience that appears in your path to support your current quest. Manticore spikes vs Beholders = warm memories!

Personally, I hold the NWN1 Ranger as the proper fix for 3E; not the overcompensated 3.5 version. While I do like the d8/ 6 Skill pt build as an option, much of the other stuff added was uneeded. That is what m/c is for, IMO.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               And I dont agree. You already stated you dont play lvl 40 PWs where this all would be true but singleplayers.

And in that environment you wont get +5damage and neither to all enemies.

its
1-4/+1 one race only
5-9/+2 two races only
10-14/+3 three races
15-19/+4 four races
20/+5 five races

So while two level of fighter give you +2damage to everyone (and one free feat), with 2lvl of ranger you get +1damage to only one race. If I take NWN OC as an example there were lots of different enemies and if you would played it for first time you would NOT knew that there are shapeshifters/animals/lizardfolk/constructs later. Even with three most used races (undead, humans, lizardfolks) you would not get this bonus half play time. In most modules you wont even reach lvl 20 at all (SoU) so the lower the campaign is the lesser are ranger's FE benefits.

If we would talk about your wished environment that is capped at lvl 20, i dont believe that anyone would made pure ranger so forget about +5 too.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               It takes 4 lvls of Ftr to get +2 dmg for WS; the Rgr gets +2 at 5th, and keeps getting better while the Ftr stays at +2.

As for FE selections, I typically choose Undead first. And I typically look for info on the mods for recommendations.But for those on PvP servers, they could choose Human, Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, and Halfing; saving the half-versioned options for Epic play and bonus FE choices.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Elhanan wrote...
And I highly advise higher ranks of Animal Empathy for dominating opposing casters summons,

OMG!  Never knew summons were dominate-able!  That would indeed make for some added fun.  I have to remember to use only elemental and vermin summons when I see a ranger or druid walking about then. '>

Thanks, Elhanan!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

If we would talk about your wished environment that is capped at lvl 20, i dont believe that anyone would made pure ranger so forget about +5 too.

You did read the part of my post I Bolded, that said Rangers are better to Major in, Fighters to Minor in. I agree if you want a small splash Fighter may be better, but even then Ranger may be handy for skills TWF etc...

In a 20 cap, many wouldn't have the Full +5 FE bonus, But I bet there would be many with +4.

I could be a Ranger 15, Fighter4, Barb 1 (Max Taunt + Rage). 

When pissed off at one of my FEs I could get +8 to damage. '>
( +4 FE from Ranger and +2 WS from Fighter +2 from Rage)

The Ranger is highly versatile class pre epic and post epic, but it is a class where rewards correspond to the levels spent.

I only see a problem in a very specific environment you described ("where minumum AB to have playable char is 62") and that seems quite a ridiculous environment to me. It seems every build would have to be hyper optimized and depend on extreme buffing to be playable. That would suck royally. What are items like +12 stats all around with +10 swords?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Elhanan wrote...
And I highly advise higher ranks of Animal Empathy for dominating opposing casters summons, and have them go chomp on the mages! Or dominating that basalisk, manticore, or other Magical beastly inconvenience that appears in your path to support your current quest. Manticore spikes vs Beholders = warm memories!

Awesome, that never occured to me. I usually only put a token amount in A-Emp to talk to the friendlies or gains some neutrals as allies.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lowlander wrote...
You did read the part of my post I Bolded, that said Rangers are better to Major in, Fighters to Minor in. I agree if you want a small splash Fighter may be better, but even then Ranger may be handy for skills TWF etc...

In a 20 cap, many wouldn't have the Full +5 FE bonus, But I bet there would be many with +4.

I could be a Ranger 15, Fighter4, Barb 1 (Max Taunt + Rage). 

When pissed off at one of my FEs I could get +8 to damage. '>
( +4 FE from Ranger and +2 WS from Fighter +2 from Rage)

The Ranger is highly versatile class pre epic and post epic, but it is a class where rewards correspond to the levels spent.

I only see a problem in a very specific environment you described ("where minumum AB to have playable char is 62") and that seems quite a ridiculous environment to me. It seems every build would have to be hyper optimized and depend on extreme buffing to be playable. That would suck royally.

Ok, I see.

What are items like +12 stats all around with +10 swords?

pmed cos OT
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

                <naturally smirks>
Just remember, if you fail to dominate, that hostile beastie might turn... er, hostile... :-( Heh.

I've always enjoyed making players wish they'd, er I mean encouraging players to RP instead of working the rules... Animal Empathy and Persuade are cases in point.

These are both vastly under-appreciated skills that naturally suffer in comparison to dual-wield and bash-in-the-face-with-shield (isn't that the name?). Other than the OC (which at least used persued now and then, and tossed a few crumbs Nature's way), what mods make good use of these skills?

Additionally, AE is the closest we have to Nature sense, which will be crucial in my open-ended druid/ranger sim... So I'm thinking of using it AE combination with wisdom... I dunno.

Something to distract players from the glittering bright bangles of  Parry and Taunt :-) I mean Concentration and Discipline... er, ride and ... 

<Dodging meaningful content, the old guy hides in plain sight>

(Sorry, thread drift... and my mind was drifting...)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 01 août 2011 - 10:42 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               It's situational depending on the world, but I would say in general that dexterity fighters are by all means weaker than strength based fighters. The main reason I say this is that strength gives you two things: to hit and damage. Though the counter argument would be dexterity also gives you armor class. But a dead enemy can't hit you and with a strength fighter they will be dead more quickly.
You mignt counter that some dex fighters like rogues get sneak attacks, but then you have the situational question of how many things can be sneak-attacked?  Most undead, many elementals, and loads of other poweful monsters, again situational, can't be sneak-attacked.  Tossing in a bit of rogue though can be really useful for a fighter, adding some new capabilites, tumble (cheap) and sneak attacks to add a bit extra against creatures that can be hit by it.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ffbj, 02 août 2011 - 12:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               HotU has an Ogre Mage that summons a Dire bear; dominate, then sit back and have a snack, too! This usage should be encountered somewhat commonly in all the Official games (OC, SoU, HotU, even some Premium mods), plus the Speak with Animal functionality.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

ffbj wrote...

It's situational depending on the world, but I would say in general that dexterity fighters are by all means weaker than strength based fighters.

Sure, but Dex fighter is not a class, but more a style of play. So I am not sure how this relates to previous discussion unless you are assuming Ranger = Dex fighter, which would be a poor assumption.

I play lots of Rangers and they are all Strength fighters, with a Big Two handed sword (as are my Rogues).

Elhanan,

Yeah IIRC a soon as you step outside into waterdeep to buy some equipment the duergar start summoning Dire bears....
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 02 août 2011 - 12:44 .