Weakest Non Prestige class?

[Legacy_Krazy Solo]

               As the title says...

What is the weakest non-prestige class?  We all played the strongest potential classes how about the weakest?

I have always been fascinated by weak class choices.  Seems like I find em easier to play.  Who knows.

In my honest opinion I think the Ranger is pretty weak compared to pass versions of it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               Define weak.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Weiser_Cain]

               Bard
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               For myself, it is the Bard; a class based more on CHA than I prefer. Other than taking the class for needed prereqs, I cannot recall playing one in NWN1, esp as a the major class.

In second place is the Barbarian; inclusive Rage class feature can actually cause death if it fades during low hp.

I define weak as the class design.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               As someone said you need to define weak, because if you find weak easier to play and you think the Ranger is a weak class, we aren't talking about the same thing.

Ranger is one of my favorite classes and I would rate them higher than fighters.

I would also vote Bard. Nice support class with Bard Song, but likewise I have never included Bard levels except as a prerequisite.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.

Bard is in my opinion one of the strongest actually, str based with rdd he is able to get awesome AC, devastating DC, has all needed boosts and anything he doesnt have can (ab)use via UMD (dont forget that unless you use my unofficial patch 90% scrolls has Bard class on them so they dont need to roll UMD when cast at all). The bard song in conjuction with curse song is just imbalanced.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               And you need to define the environment too. What is strong in low magic become weak in high magic and viceversa.

I don't wanna sound snarky, but the question, as it stands, is pretty much pointless. Especially in a game which grants you 3 class slots and lets you mix and match the best features of each. Basically any class can be put to good use. Even PDK
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.

Huh? How does a ranger have any lower AB/AC than a fighter?  Even a straight ranger can take heavy armor as a feat. Compared to a fighter a Ranger with bane gets +2 AB against all FE, which puts it ahead of the fighter.

Ranger is an awesome class. Fights as good as a fighter and gets double the skill points, has access to many more class skills, gets a nice pet, gets spells...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lowlander wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.

Huh? How does a ranger have any lower AB/AC than a fighter?  Even a straight ranger can take heavy armor as a feat. Compared to a fighter a Ranger with bane gets +2 AB against all FE, which puts it ahead of the fighter.

Ranger is an awesome class. Fights as good as a fighter and gets double the skill points, has access to many more class skills, gets a nice pet, gets spells...

If your ranger has to buy a Wis score to cast spells, than probably his melee ability related score will be lower, hence vs non favored enemies will have a lower AB or he will have lower scores elsewhere. This is just a general consideration and I'm not endorsing the position that Ranger is a weak class.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               That is more a testament to the Rangers flexibility. Though I would never set Wis over 12 unless the Wis benefited a second class (like Monk), and most of the time my Rangers have 8 Wis.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lowlander wrote...

That is more a testament to the Rangers flexibility. Though I would never set Wis over 12 unless the Wis benefited a second class (like Monk), and most of the time my Rangers have 8 Wis.

I often go for Wis 14 as a part of all 14 for starting abilities but 8 for Cha with Rangers. The spells could definitely be better but IMO they are worth the investment (and the extra Wis means a better will save too). But we are digressing.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Does the OP mean "pure" class?  Dunno.  But if for multiclass all them them seem to have their very strong assets and few of the non-prestige strengths overlap all that much.

But if I were to interpret "weak" as meaning "limiting" then it would be any class that severely limits how you can build around it.  The alignment restrictions are severe enough for Paladin that I seldom use it unless it is some sort of dump for feats or class-specific festures.  I find it is just about impossible to keep leveling in that class in an environment that causes extreme shifts according to one's actions. 

Druid is another alignment-choked class in many environments.  Unless you get the levels you want in early before encountering shift-situations, you must scurry to find a way to re-align to take more levels. 

The definition of alignment shift-worthy actions of the designer often vastly differs from my own so it can be annoying to build any continuity with that hanging over one's head. On servers that provide an alignment manager, of course, it is not an issue so there are no such limitations.

At any rate, that is about the only debilitating aspect I can imagine for any of the non-prestige classes as a whole.

I've done effective powergaming with both bard and ranger classes so I don't consider either of those any weaker than the others.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lowlander wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.

Huh? How does a ranger have any lower AB/AC than a fighter?  Even a straight ranger can take heavy armor as a feat. Compared to a fighter a Ranger with bane gets +2 AB against all FE, which puts it ahead of the fighter.

Ranger is an awesome class. Fights as good as a fighter and gets double the skill points, has access to many more class skills, gets a nice pet, gets spells...

Well I count with multiclass. Fighter can easily multiclass WM and therefore gets +7ab, the is no reason to take so much fighter we already discussed it in multiclass thread. The ranger itself provides no ab until lvl 21 only damage. Also ranger is mostly using dual-wield, two handler rangers looks kinda stupid '>. + He has no AC if he wants to go str based with dual wield. I also havent seen any good dex based ranger build.

WM lvl 28 -> +7ab
Bard lvl 16 -> +2song,+2warcry,+5 from curse song ac decrease.
Paladin lvl 15 -> +8ab
Cleric lvl 16 -> 10+ab depends on BAB the lower the better, with weapon he often reach cap
Ranger 8/10 -> +1ab
Ranger lvl 21 -> 3ab (dont forget at -2dual wield penalty)
Druid lvl 1 -> 2ab in nature
Barbarian -> 0ab unless rage is rescripted in that case its +3ab (+4 mighty)
AA lvl 29 -> +15ab

Maybe in low magic/lvl environment, the ranger might be usefull for rogues to get free dual-wield and extra attack with decent BAB (played one like this at 3T), I also have seen one ranger at pvp server Bastions of War, but his AB was horrible it was an archer that aimed for non-ac and mainly PM builds, he couldnt hit anyone else (+4weapons, +7armor environment -> in this environent paladin, clerics, bards get even another +1ab due to GMW) and with no AC he could do only one thing - run shoot, annoying but not powerfull.

Compare any ranger build on ranged weapon with any AA or any Zen cleric. The difference there is extremely huge.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Ranger is NOT taken primarily for A/TWF by myself; rarely even use it as I prefer Heavy armor over ligher armored builds. It may be considered by some to be front loaded for this feature, but when m/c the Bard and Barbarian have benefits, too.

AA is the best archer, IMO. But I personally dislike playing Elves mainly due to their faster moving feature; keep stepping on traps before becoming revealed. And my Zen archer can hit targets all day long, but does little dmg to them when compared to a Ranger powered punch. And the Ranger has full BAB, so a STR heavy armored archer makes up some slack much like a STR AA design.

At 20th lvl, a Ranger gets +5 dmg to any of his chosen FE; Cat's Grace for a small AB boost. Add BoE at 21st for +2 AB/ +2d6 dmg boost.

While Ranger may not m/c as well as some other classes is a salute to the idea that the Ranger class does take investment to get a lot from it. Even the A/TWF feature that is mentioned is the weakest starting fighting technique compared to 2H or S&S; nice feature in high lvls, but no so much when starting.

Comparing Ranger to m/c designs is rather unfair, too. That said, Ranger builds are terrific while remaining the major class: full BAB, spell boosts, FE bonuses, a pet; even a bonus to Stealth is one wishes to play that way.

OTOH, the Barbarian could perish if Rage fades, and the Bard gets to sing.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               Shadow Seriously?

Not sure where you are coming up with +8 ab for Paladin. But I guess it some highly situational occasional use case like the Bard:

War Cry. A spell that lasts a few rounds, that you can cast once?? That also has a saving throw that negates.

Bard level 16 Curse song requires 30 perform. Do you really think you can pull that off at level 16?

You also seem to forget that you have -4 BAB vs fighter classes like the ranger.

As a charisma based class you will also be down on your AB stat (Str/Dex).

End result is more like one fight, when your enemy fails saves, you will be one or two AB ahead. The rest of the time you will be behind.

I notice you didn't mention Fighter either, which is what I asked...