Author Topic: Multi-classing  (Read 5500 times)

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2011, 07:38:26 pm »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

denying the monk WIS bonus to AC is implemented
or denying skillpoint saving etc


Which SP modules do this? Why would a SP module be be keen on nerfing Monks or messing with skillpoint saving? The same goes for messing with HIPS in SP modules.

I have probably played 50 of the top mods. I don't recall any that did any of these things.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane

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« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2011, 07:58:26 pm »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

...... what do the forumers here think of multiclassing?


The folks who actually designed NWN didn't make any restrictions about how many levels have to be taken in any class, so they obviously intended for the players to take however many levels of any class they choose when multi-classing. Any restrictions they did intend are alignment based, and are hard coded into the game engine. Build your pc to suit yourself, and RP that pc however it pleases you. 

As I've stated before.... in a MP environment, why should anyone care what's on anyone else's stat sheet? Do you enjoy RPing with that player/pc? If you do, then continue interacting with them. If you don't enjoy RP'ing with that player/pc, then avoid them. Unless you're a DM on that particualr PW, and some house rules are being broken, what's on anyone else's stat sheet is none of your business. Whining, sniveling, complaining, etc. about what's on someone elses stat sheet shows serious signs of control issues. Get over it.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2011, 08:14:31 pm »


               

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

denying the monk WIS bonus to AC is implemented
or denying skillpoint saving etc


Which SP modules do this? Why would a SP module be be keen on nerfing Monks or messing with skillpoint saving? The same goes for messing with HIPS in SP modules.

I have probably played 50 of the top mods. I don't recall any that did any of these things.

If the legacy forums were back I could tell you more promptly. I don't remember now where it got implemented. To be more precise, it's about limiting Wis bonus to AC to builds heavy on Druid/Cleric and with token level(s) of Monk without harming "true" monkish builds.

Anyhow, the reason to do it is basically always the same: the builder thinks that's the best for his module. He thinks that dev crit has no place in it, or that some spells need a tweak or two etc. He tries to offer as good and balanced a module as possible, in his view of course, by altering the vanilla game rules.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2011, 08:18:48 pm »


               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

...... what do the forumers here think of multiclassing?


The folks who actually designed NWN didn't make any restrictions about how many levels have to be taken in any class, so they obviously intended for the players to take however many levels of any class they choose when multi-classing. Any restrictions they did intend are alignment based, and are hard coded into the game engine. Build your pc to suit yourself, and RP that pc however it pleases you.

And even alignment based restrictions are often just a matter of getting alignment shifts before leveling the new class...

As I've stated before.... in a MP environment, why should anyone care what's on anyone else's stat sheet? Do you enjoy RPing with that player/pc? If you do, then continue interacting with them. If you don't enjoy RP'ing with that player/pc, then avoid them. Unless you're a DM on that particualr PW, and some house rules are being broken, what's on anyone else's stat sheet is none of your business. Whining, sniveling, complaining, etc. about what's on someone elses stat sheet shows serious signs of control issues. Get over it.

You see, but Grom said it felt wrong for him to do that. I do not think he is concerned in any way by what I or you or anyone else does with their own builds, he's not judging those that go for a single monk lvl for Wis AC or a couple of bard levels for tumble and UMD dumps etc. He's saying that he personally doesn't like to do that and wants to know how others see the matter. At least, that's what I got.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane

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« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2011, 09:02:41 pm »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

You see, but Grom said it felt wrong for him to do that. I do not think he is concerned in any way by what I or you or anyone else does with their own builds, he's not judging those that go for a single monk lvl for Wis AC or a couple of bard levels for tumble and UMD dumps etc. He's saying that he personally doesn't like to do that and wants to know how others see the matter. At least, that's what I got.


Understood. My post wasn't aimed at him or anyone else specifically. It was in answer to the question you posted, and the subject of multi-classing in general.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2011, 09:15:57 pm »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

If the legacy forums were back I could tell you more promptly. I don't remember now where it got implemented. To be more precise, it's about limiting Wis bonus to AC to builds heavy on Druid/Cleric and with token level(s) of Monk without harming "true" monkish builds.


Sure Kail.
It barely even makes sense to bother on a PW let alone a SP mod. I mean throwing away armor/shield you are losing 11 Points of AC right there. 16 if you factor that a Cleric can echant his own shield to +5.

So how much Wisdom for 16 points of AC? 42 Wisdom to break even on AC. And this was important to nerf in a SP mod? Sure Kail.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2011, 09:41:54 pm »


               

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

If the legacy forums were back I could tell you more promptly. I don't remember now where it got implemented. To be more precise, it's about limiting Wis bonus to AC to builds heavy on Druid/Cleric and with token level(s) of Monk without harming "true" monkish builds.


Sure Kail.
It barely even makes sense to bother on a PW let alone a SP mod. I mean throwing away armor/shield you are losing 11 Points of AC right there. 16 if you factor that a Cleric can echant his own shield to +5.

So how much Wisdom for 16 points of AC? 42 Wisdom to break even on AC. And this was important to nerf in a SP mod? Sure Kail.

It wasn't me to make that module, so you can keep your sarcastic tone for yourself. Besides shield and armor AC are unexistant in shifted shapes and there the single monk level simply grants a big AC boosts (and other side benefits) at no other cost but one class slot. Another case of benefitting from the wis AC at one class slot cost is Cleric 26/Rogue 13/Monk 1 or somesuch epic dodging battle cleric for example. No matter the reasons behind it anyhow, apparently someone thought that those benefits were undue in his module. Which is all that matters. As a matter of fact, some builders do take action "against" specific playing/building/etc. possible behaviours and use of the game features (Aielund uses the EMS ssytem for example which alters a whole deal of stuff). Which stilll has nothing to do with the topic at hand and personal like/dislike of multiclassing.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 25 juillet 2011 - 09:00 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2011, 11:02:58 pm »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...
It wasn't me to make that module, so you can keep your sarcastic tone for yourself.


I imagine it wasn't anyone.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2011, 11:51:26 pm »


               

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
It wasn't me to make that module, so you can keep your sarcastic tone for yourself.


I imagine it wasn't anyone.

I imagine you want to keep being pedantically off topic and ignore the point that no matter whether monk Wis AC got limited in any SP module (which is just an example) there is a huge variety of modifications to the vanilla game done by various builders in SP modules just for the sake of it. Like Evasion not working with medium/heavy armor. Like, big deal. And still it has been done. Or evasion removed from shifted monk 1 builds. So if evasion was so handled, wouldn't it  be at least believable that something like wis AC could get a similar treatment? And even if it wasn't, the point that game features get altered by module builders so that they cannot be used as in the vanilla game by players remains true.

Anyhow, the moment you'll start comprehending logical reasoning and stop getting stuck in pointless details we'll be able to have a conversation leading somewhere. Which is not here anyhow, but given your lack of comprehension of what off topic means I guess you'll believe otherwise. Goodbye.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 25 juillet 2011 - 10:52 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Magical Master

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« Reply #84 on: July 26, 2011, 01:35:22 am »


               Kail can attest that I've disagreed with him on a lot, but he's right on this one.  Limiting Monk AC when shifted or for low Monk levels has been done in many places.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2011, 03:15:31 pm »


               

Magical Master wrote...

Kail can attest that I've disagreed with him on a lot, but he's right on this one.  Limiting Monk AC when shifted or for low Monk levels has been done in many places.

Long time no see MM! If there's anyone that knows about limiting monk  AC and where it has been implemented that should indeed be you, eh '<img'>

So, just to try to stay on topic: what do you think of multiclassing as presented by Grom?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Maic23

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« Reply #86 on: July 26, 2011, 11:36:00 pm »


               Multiclass 1 (or if you're really up to it, try 4) level of Harper Scout to a level 21 ranger.
Gives the character additional Favored Enemies, rendering the Ranger's Bane of Enemies to be more useful.  Ranger's Cat's Grace and the Harper's Cat's Grace "do" stack, so it wouldn't hurt to take 4 levels of Harper.  Not really sure if it's level 4 Harper or level 5 Harper that gives the FE, so pardon my laziness to look it up.

That's the only decent 1-5 level multiclass I can think of (...which isn't much of a "cheeze" play)

If I'm going to get UMD, might as well get it from assassin (if a dex and evil character).  Taking a level or two of Assassin wouldn't hurt as you'll get to dump your skills to UMD and tumble, plus you also get Uncanny Dodge (which is very useful for DEX characters)

However, I don't multiclass at level (38-40). LoL, that would be counter productive. I believe UMD is designed so that you can make use of items at a much earlier pace.  If my UMD level for a certain level is not enough, I tend to space out the levels at which I would get another assassin level. If it is still not enough, then space them out once more and take 3 instead of 2 levels of assassin (additional damage to death attacks doesn't hurt).

My opinion, those who multiclass 1 level of a class at 39th level don't really reap the bonus of the said Feat or Skill (incase they are dumping them) in a RP point of view. Even though you have a max UMD and Tumble, what are you going to do with them afterwards? Nada, simply because you've reached the end of the line, you don't need to be questing and doing some dungeon crawling. Those types of builds are usually for PVP. PVP doesn't really appeal to me, plus NWN is a DnD game, it should be DM vs Players (even though the player usually wins, the DM gets to give them crap-loads of punishment... In the end everyone got their fun out of the game). My opinion though. =P
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #87 on: July 28, 2011, 12:11:45 am »


               Note that the Harper FEs do not "stack" with the Ranger FEs...

It would be too much awesomeness if it did!

Though the thing with Cat's Grace, etc from Harper Scout does stack.  Esp. with Blackguard...hehe.  One of my favs is the Black Harper build - Pal/HS/BG.  Does need an alignment change, but there is nothing like falling...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #88 on: July 28, 2011, 01:51:10 am »


               

Maic23 wrote...

That's the only decent 1-5 level multiclass I can think of (...which isn't much of a "cheeze" play)

There's definitely much more than that and better ones too '<img'>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Magical Master

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« Reply #89 on: July 28, 2011, 05:43:53 am »


               Try something like 38 Sorcerer/1 Monk/1 Paladin.  And there are many PW modules that are PvM where the majority of play is at max level.  Not all, but many.  Most campaigns do tend not to care about max level, though.

Kail Pendragon wrote...

 If there's anyone that knows about limiting monk  AC and where it has been implemented that should indeed be you, eh '<img'>


Heh, to some degree.  Aielund's the prime single player module that comes to mind off-hand on limiting shifted Monk AC as a side note, though I'm sure there are many others.  PW-wise, quite a few PWs either limit it or restrict multi-classing with prohibited combinations or minimum levels in a class.

Kail Pendragon wrote...

So, just to try to stay on topic: what do you think of multiclassing as presented by Grom?


I think the two main factors are the concept and the result.

Concept wise, I think the fact that a 40 fighter will lose to a 39 fighter/1 rogue in a straight up battle with identical gear is flat out idiotic.  Thus, I take steps to correct it.  For any given environment, it's important for the players to have the same general concept (such as class meaning something, like a fighter excelling at fighting), but it really doesn't matter what the concept actually is in an absolute sense.

Which brings me to result, which is what happens due to the concept.  I can easily make a world where the only casters that can survive will be a Sorcerer + Monk/Rogue + Paladin/Blackguard build and where melee builds have to be along the lines of Fighter 12/Weapon Master 28 to deal damage if people desire that, but it's a conscious choice to promote those sorts of builds that eke out every last bit of power.  The environment is then going to be brutal for anything else and you wind up *having* to have certain things.  AB tuned for a PM build and don't have a PM tank?  Don't bother trying.  Saves tuned for a Sorc/Paladin?  Go home or die if you don't have it.  The gap in power becomes vast and limits the number of builds and mandates having certain builds to meet requirements (aka, a Dwarven Defender is unable to tank effectively because it doesn't have enough AC, or the reverse where the PM can't tank because he doesn't have enough damage reduction).

I think that makes an inferior game.  But that's an opinion and some people due genuinely prefer such a world, which is why I said the only thing that matters is that people agree on a concept so there's not a rift in opinion over the result.  People can find the environment that suits them.

All of that said, I do wish to point out that my ideal concept does not eliminate powerbuilding...it just closes the gap.  I want both a PM and DD to be able to tank successfully, and I don't want them to be insanely better than a pure fighter who focused on tanking (but all three can be significantly better than a strength focused weapon master).  I want to promote a variety of builds that give advantages which aren't effectively absolute or gamebreaking.  Having 20 more AC than another build that's reasonable means either one is going to get crushed or the other won't ever be hit due to the d20 system.  I don't want either scenario.